Same here. I don't see why it should be banned. It is more useful against certain decks? Yes. But so are many other cards, like weapon hate, or, as mentioned, token removers.
The disabled person argument is a bit moot, to be honest. If you are physically disabled enough so that Noz becomes a problem for you, it is a sad state of affairs, but realistically you have bigger problems in your life than being at a disadvantage against a specific card in an online trading card game. You could make the exact same argument about Starcraft and the "unfair advantage" that extremely fast and dexterous people have over the others.
Ferrarista I wasn't referring to mental disabilities btw, I'm talking about some physical handicap like Muscular Dystrophy or maybe really bad Arthritis or Carpal Tunnel or something to that effect. Also, Starcraft was designed from the ground up to be a competitive e-sport, It's the national sport of South Korea for crying out loud, while Hearthstone is supposed to be a fun game that anyone can play. Nozdormu isn't critical to any deck, it's just this kind of niche card. I don't think many would moan if it was altered or banned, and that is one of the big reasons I think Blizzard will do something about it should this game get competitive: there's really no reason not to.
Just kill the time dragon when he hits the board. Hex, Polymorph, Assassinate, etc... Imagine if it was Deathwing instead. :)
If you really think that you are going to play more than two turns with him affecting your playstyle, you haven't understood how the game works yet: minions don't stay alive during ages on the board. If they do, you are doing something wrong. :) Same if you think that, at turn 9 or more, you will have 10 cards to play with a rogue deck. Chances are that your hand will be empty, and that you will have just one Sprint left in the deck.
I hope they won't start to ban cards, whatever the reason is. Nozdormu is fine and fun. :)
I know the dragon is likely to die, but that's irrelevant. It's a matter of principle. Cards that disadvantage certain players because of IRL disabilities or connection issues should not be in the game, even if they're bad. Bad cards like that open the door for better cards that function in a similar way.
I'll be honest, at this point, I can't tell if you guys are trolling, or if you really think Hearthstone should be designed with Arthritis in mind. :D
Your comparison to StarCraft is not exactly accurate. In StarCraft (and for other RTS games in general), gameplay revolves around and rewards you for doing things better AND faster than the other player(s). That is typically not the case with card-based games, even here when 1 out of 300+ cards provide a similar benefit.
The game doesn't need to be designed explicitly with ailments like this in mind, but it shouldn't marginalize those players by introducing niche mechanics that would restrict them. Of course there are limits to this, and basic computer skills should be expected in order to play (can read the cards, can use a pointing device, etc.), but nothing else in the game currently rewards or even expects you to play extremely fast.
I'm still expecting Nozdormu to be changed or replaced entirely for other reasons, but I think the argument stands that they should avoid mechanics that would impose limitations on players that affect them outside of the game itself.
I get your point, but we're still talking about at 45-second turn, and probably for a couple of turns at best. Yes, it's designed to put pressure on the thinking of your opponent, and it's its sole advantage.
To be honest, it's a pretty weak card. I doubt it will see play in any kind of competitive deck. Friends and I are currently trying to figure out what the early meta will be through extensive play testing, and I can tell one thing for certain: there is no place in any of the current top decks for a Nozdormu.
Fantastic players with motor disabilities still have a bright future! ;)
Has the card been changed already? Both this site and Wowhead still list it as 15 seconds, which seems a bit restrictive.
It doesn't particularly matter whether or not Nozdormu ends up being tournament-viable; as someone else said (here or on the official forums, I forget which), the ability being in the game sets a precedent, and opens the door for more cards down the line that mimic it, which may end up being tournament-viable themselves.
If they really want to keep a mechanic like this in the game, it almost seems like it would make more sense as a "each player may only perform up to X actions per turn" (since I think you are a Magic player from reading other threads, something similar to Arcane Laboratory [http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=25562]).
Exactly. If this game is intended to be like Starcraft, then make it a game like Starcraft. Having exactly one card that cares about a certain IRL skill is pretty illogical. I do think there's room for an Arcane Laboratory effect in Hearthstone (in fact, I think there should be one- prison decks need love too) but I really don't think that Nozdormu in his current implementation is healthy for the game in any way at all. Cards like him have never worked in competitive TCG's, and this will be no different.
This whole IRL argument is so stupid. I'm sorry for the morbid example, but if I dont have arms, then it's unfair that others use mouse or touchpad. I'm handicapped (literraly), so dont release the game until it has voice commands. And if you care about those who have physical diseases, why don't you care about mental diseases? Do you think they are not equals? That they are inferrior? Are you a racist? I bet you hate asians as well.
/joke
Point is: in every sport there are separate tournaments for handicapped people. Ban Nozdormu there. Othewise, learn to play against it like all other cards.
Now that I know everyone here is serious and not trolling, I can't help but thinking that Noz is somehow a necessary card as is. Let me explain:
Nick, you're right when you say that Arcane Lab would be interesting in the game. (for those of you unfamiliar with the concept, it's a card that would read "players can only play 1 spell or minion per turn") Now, let's not forget that Blizzard wants no discard or mana-destruction because they said they want players to focus on playing cool stuff, not denying opponents the right to do so. Based on that design philosophy, I'd say an arcane lab card would need a "cool" effect bundled into it (think: you can only play one card a turn, but it gets a pretty cool bonus).
But anyhow, the point I'm trying to make is this: this is NOT just a card game. It's a computerized, connected experience. Therefore, typical rules should be broken, boundaries should be pushed, in hopes of finding cool new ways to have fun. So, in essence, even if Noz is not the answer out there, Blizzard needs to think about HS innovatively, and as players, I think we should embrace new concepts, give them a shot, and if they suck, well, it'll be easy for them to fix it anyway!
A) Their design philosophy is going to lead to problems with a balanced metagame. Lack of disruption makes combos (at least combos in the mtg sense) too good which means they have to constantly make sure they don't make a pure combo deck possible. With no combo to threaten aggro and midrange and no disruption for the control players to play, the game will quickly become very stale because EVERYONE will be playing either pure aggro, midrange, or one of those two deck types with a few synergies such as shadowstep jenkins. Yes, Rogues do have a spell based deck that is viable, but that's more of a synergistic midrange deck than a combo deck. This entire point is off topic, but I do think it's worth mentioning because I don't expect their design philosophy to stay constant.
B) There are so many innovative cards they could make that don't involve physical dexterity. It's really easy to be innovative when you take away normal design restrictions: that doesn't mean that the product will be good. It's bad form to make a completely unrelated skill relevant for one single card in the entire game.
Yes it's 15 seconds. Against a token deck I'm sure with animations thats barely enough time to attack with everything. Let alone plan and play something else. Don't forget your oppoennents turn is also 15 so you have 30 seconds top to strategize your next move.
Apologies. For the life of me I remembered it "cut in half" your turn, and I thought turns were 90 seconds. Hence my 45 seconds pulled off my hat. 45 seconds turn force you to think faster, but I think we could all agree that they don't necessarily put too much pressure on your physical dexterity. Anyhow...
15 seconds/turn is indeed a very steep change. I doubt that the game will ship live with this as is. If it does, then yes, I would agree with you that the mechanic is detrimental to an enjoyable gaming experience for everybody.
Turns are 90 seconds (you didn't think wrong about that), it just cuts your turn into a sixth. IMO, the timer should never actually have any impact on gameplay and should only serve to stop people from trolling/timestalling.
Here, 49 cards, that can deal with Nozdormu's nasty effect wihout big combos, 1 card assistance at max. Some of them may require 1 turn to take effect, or 2 attack worst case scenario. The list doesn't Include Mind Control and Sylvanas Windrunner, as they dont kill Nozdormu just gain controll over him. Also doesnt include Assassin's Blade; Gorehowl and Arcanite Reaper as they're quite suicidal. Kidnapper; Sap and Vanish were also excluded, as they only give some breathing room. Mirror Entity gets a special mention as a proactive card, but not on the list.
You're missing the point. Show me one instance of someone here complaining that he's too hard to kill. It has nothing to do with power level or lack of answers.
Same here. I don't see why it should be banned. It is more useful against certain decks? Yes. But so are many other cards, like weapon hate, or, as mentioned, token removers.
The disabled person argument is a bit moot, to be honest. If you are physically disabled enough so that Noz becomes a problem for you, it is a sad state of affairs, but realistically you have bigger problems in your life than being at a disadvantage against a specific card in an online trading card game. You could make the exact same argument about Starcraft and the "unfair advantage" that extremely fast and dexterous people have over the others.
Ferrarista I wasn't referring to mental disabilities btw, I'm talking about some physical handicap like Muscular Dystrophy or maybe really bad Arthritis or Carpal Tunnel or something to that effect. Also, Starcraft was designed from the ground up to be a competitive e-sport, It's the national sport of South Korea for crying out loud, while Hearthstone is supposed to be a fun game that anyone can play. Nozdormu isn't critical to any deck, it's just this kind of niche card. I don't think many would moan if it was altered or banned, and that is one of the big reasons I think Blizzard will do something about it should this game get competitive: there's really no reason not to.
Just kill the time dragon when he hits the board. Hex, Polymorph, Assassinate, etc... Imagine if it was Deathwing instead. :)
If you really think that you are going to play more than two turns with him affecting your playstyle, you haven't understood how the game works yet: minions don't stay alive during ages on the board. If they do, you are doing something wrong. :) Same if you think that, at turn 9 or more, you will have 10 cards to play with a rogue deck. Chances are that your hand will be empty, and that you will have just one Sprint left in the deck.
I hope they won't start to ban cards, whatever the reason is. Nozdormu is fine and fun. :)
I have an opinion on almost everything. :)
I know the dragon is likely to die, but that's irrelevant. It's a matter of principle. Cards that disadvantage certain players because of IRL disabilities or connection issues should not be in the game, even if they're bad. Bad cards like that open the door for better cards that function in a similar way.
I'll be honest, at this point, I can't tell if you guys are trolling, or if you really think Hearthstone should be designed with Arthritis in mind. :D
Your comparison to StarCraft is not exactly accurate. In StarCraft (and for other RTS games in general), gameplay revolves around and rewards you for doing things better AND faster than the other player(s). That is typically not the case with card-based games, even here when 1 out of 300+ cards provide a similar benefit.
The game doesn't need to be designed explicitly with ailments like this in mind, but it shouldn't marginalize those players by introducing niche mechanics that would restrict them. Of course there are limits to this, and basic computer skills should be expected in order to play (can read the cards, can use a pointing device, etc.), but nothing else in the game currently rewards or even expects you to play extremely fast.
I'm still expecting Nozdormu to be changed or replaced entirely for other reasons, but I think the argument stands that they should avoid mechanics that would impose limitations on players that affect them outside of the game itself.
I get your point, but we're still talking about at 45-second turn, and probably for a couple of turns at best. Yes, it's designed to put pressure on the thinking of your opponent, and it's its sole advantage.
To be honest, it's a pretty weak card. I doubt it will see play in any kind of competitive deck. Friends and I are currently trying to figure out what the early meta will be through extensive play testing, and I can tell one thing for certain: there is no place in any of the current top decks for a Nozdormu.
Fantastic players with motor disabilities still have a bright future! ;)
Has the card been changed already? Both this site and Wowhead still list it as 15 seconds, which seems a bit restrictive.
It doesn't particularly matter whether or not Nozdormu ends up being tournament-viable; as someone else said (here or on the official forums, I forget which), the ability being in the game sets a precedent, and opens the door for more cards down the line that mimic it, which may end up being tournament-viable themselves.
If they really want to keep a mechanic like this in the game, it almost seems like it would make more sense as a "each player may only perform up to X actions per turn" (since I think you are a Magic player from reading other threads, something similar to Arcane Laboratory [http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=25562]).
Exactly. If this game is intended to be like Starcraft, then make it a game like Starcraft. Having exactly one card that cares about a certain IRL skill is pretty illogical. I do think there's room for an Arcane Laboratory effect in Hearthstone (in fact, I think there should be one- prison decks need love too) but I really don't think that Nozdormu in his current implementation is healthy for the game in any way at all. Cards like him have never worked in competitive TCG's, and this will be no different.
This whole IRL argument is so stupid. I'm sorry for the morbid example, but if I dont have arms, then it's unfair that others use mouse or touchpad. I'm handicapped (literraly), so dont release the game until it has voice commands. And if you care about those who have physical diseases, why don't you care about mental diseases? Do you think they are not equals? That they are inferrior? Are you a racist? I bet you hate asians as well.
/joke
Point is: in every sport there are separate tournaments for handicapped people. Ban Nozdormu there. Othewise, learn to play against it like all other cards.
Now that I know everyone here is serious and not trolling, I can't help but thinking that Noz is somehow a necessary card as is. Let me explain:
Nick, you're right when you say that Arcane Lab would be interesting in the game. (for those of you unfamiliar with the concept, it's a card that would read "players can only play 1 spell or minion per turn") Now, let's not forget that Blizzard wants no discard or mana-destruction because they said they want players to focus on playing cool stuff, not denying opponents the right to do so. Based on that design philosophy, I'd say an arcane lab card would need a "cool" effect bundled into it (think: you can only play one card a turn, but it gets a pretty cool bonus).
But anyhow, the point I'm trying to make is this: this is NOT just a card game. It's a computerized, connected experience. Therefore, typical rules should be broken, boundaries should be pushed, in hopes of finding cool new ways to have fun. So, in essence, even if Noz is not the answer out there, Blizzard needs to think about HS innovatively, and as players, I think we should embrace new concepts, give them a shot, and if they suck, well, it'll be easy for them to fix it anyway!
A) Their design philosophy is going to lead to problems with a balanced metagame. Lack of disruption makes combos (at least combos in the mtg sense) too good which means they have to constantly make sure they don't make a pure combo deck possible. With no combo to threaten aggro and midrange and no disruption for the control players to play, the game will quickly become very stale because EVERYONE will be playing either pure aggro, midrange, or one of those two deck types with a few synergies such as shadowstep jenkins. Yes, Rogues do have a spell based deck that is viable, but that's more of a synergistic midrange deck than a combo deck. This entire point is off topic, but I do think it's worth mentioning because I don't expect their design philosophy to stay constant.
B) There are so many innovative cards they could make that don't involve physical dexterity. It's really easy to be innovative when you take away normal design restrictions: that doesn't mean that the product will be good. It's bad form to make a completely unrelated skill relevant for one single card in the entire game.
This is not about physical dexterity. We're still talking about a 45 second turn.
It is about making people think faster. Not about physical dexterity.
The card says 15 seconds in Cockatrice and elsewhere.
Yes it's 15 seconds. Against a token deck I'm sure with animations thats barely enough time to attack with everything. Let alone plan and play something else. Don't forget your oppoennents turn is also 15 so you have 30 seconds top to strategize your next move.
Let me change your mind
And now I look like a tool. :]
Apologies. For the life of me I remembered it "cut in half" your turn, and I thought turns were 90 seconds. Hence my 45 seconds pulled off my hat. 45 seconds turn force you to think faster, but I think we could all agree that they don't necessarily put too much pressure on your physical dexterity. Anyhow...
15 seconds/turn is indeed a very steep change. I doubt that the game will ship live with this as is. If it does, then yes, I would agree with you that the mechanic is detrimental to an enjoyable gaming experience for everybody.
Gosh, 15 seconds... o.O
Turns are 90 seconds (you didn't think wrong about that), it just cuts your turn into a sixth. IMO, the timer should never actually have any impact on gameplay and should only serve to stop people from trolling/timestalling.
Silence(6): Keeper of the Grove;Mass Dispel;Earth Shock;Ironbeak Owl;Silence;Spellbreaker
Removal(9):Deathwing;Big Game Hunter;Patient Assassin;Twisting Nether;Siphon Soul;Assassinate;Execute;Corruption;Naturalize
Random removal(4): Vaporize;Emperor Cobra;Brawl;Deadly Shot
Transformation(3): Tinkmaster Overspark;Hex;Polymorph
Direct damage(3): Ragnaros the Firelord;Pyroblast; Gladiator's Longbow;
Pure strenght(24):Alexstrasza;King Krush;Onyxia;The Beast;Molten Giant;Mountain Giant;Sea Giant;Core Hound;Ironbark Protector;Baron Geddon;Gruul;Fire Elemental;Nozdormu (lol) ; Argent Commander; Tirion Fordring; Sunwalker; Ancient of War; Grom Hellscream; Cenarius; Illidan Stormrage; Malygos; Cairne Bloodhoof; Ysera; Faceless Manipulator
Here, 49 cards, that can deal with Nozdormu's nasty effect wihout big combos, 1 card assistance at max. Some of them may require 1 turn to take effect, or 2 attack worst case scenario. The list doesn't Include Mind Control and Sylvanas Windrunner, as they dont kill Nozdormu just gain controll over him. Also doesnt include Assassin's Blade; Gorehowl and Arcanite Reaper as they're quite suicidal. Kidnapper; Sap and Vanish were also excluded, as they only give some breathing room. Mirror Entity gets a special mention as a proactive card, but not on the list.
You're missing the point. Show me one instance of someone here complaining that he's too hard to kill. It has nothing to do with power level or lack of answers.
How about Nozdormu: "Your opponent's spells take effect on their next turn."
Now we're talking :D