Hey all, I was just thinking about this the other day. Basically I don't think there was ever a point in HS history thus far where the community was this totally apathetic to the dev team or even downright mistrustful.
Basically in the past it when something like this
Ben Brode - "Hey look at this crappy card we made Mayor Noggenfogger, it's entering the game soon!"
Entire community gets hyped and jokes about the card
Nu-devs "hey here is 200+ free cards, new game modes and a free battlepass system"
I think a lot of people have been feeling optimistic about the extent the developers are engaging the community. For a while we had pretty regular Twitter AMAs, you see more nerfs than before in response to community concerns about card power levels, and the developers have increasingly given clearer roadmaps about what’s to come.
It’s impossible to make everyone happy and there will always be detractors. People still feel that the price of expansions, packs, and dust exchange are out of touch. A lot people also feel like the new content is stuff they didn’t ask for and do not care for—book of heroes, BGs, duels, new skins, etc.
generally speaking, I think a lot of the initial hype for the game is gone and a lot of the community is jaded about different aspects of the past in contrast to what’s happening/is coming.
I think it’s gotten a bit better recently. I mean a few months ago (announcement of the battlepass) was pretty low.
Coming back to the game last October after a 3 year break though I was astounded at the state of the game. Playing against Rogue and Mage the first few times I assumed I was playing against meme decks, that the ridiculous random generation decks were top tier or close to it never crossed my mind at first, and then demon hunter aggro with their insane card draw was baffling to me. I’m undecided whether or not to stick around again, if they show restraint with the power level of cards, tone down the RNG and keep up their recent ‘good will’ I’ll be happy, but I doubt it.
Since the battlepass outrage, I think they’ve definitely tried to do more to be in touch with the player base. More communication and pretty fast response time to problematic metas.
The new team is the best they Made hs LOT better been playing seens closed beta and i can only say the game has never felt better. Better for free to play more modes better changes and better rewards i love the direction the game is going and will support it as long they keep the game this Way.
I think it’s gotten a bit better recently. I mean a few months ago (announcement of the battlepass) was pretty low.
Coming back to the game last October after a 3 year break though I was astounded at the state of the game. Playing against Rogue and Mage the first few times I assumed I was playing against meme decks, that the ridiculous random generation decks were top tier or close to it never crossed my mind at first, and then demon hunter aggro with their insane card draw was baffling to me. I’m undecided whether or not to stick around again, if they show restraint with the power level of cards, tone down the RNG and keep up their recent ‘good will’ I’ll be happy, but I doubt it.
I guess we will have Classic at least.
I do like some of the things they did, duplicate protection mainly. Being more responsive is nice but you know, show me the money. What players really want is material advantages. Well ofc second to the game being fun in the first place ofc but you know what I mean. And for that you gotta keep your eye on the economy of the game. I think Standard is an overlooked event, maybe it's just been to long but I remember it and still dislike it. What Standard effectively did was it gave your cards a two year lifetime (at best) before they are thrown to the garbage pile, Wild. And sorry for players who enjoy Wild but that is what it effectively is. And then there is this mess with retiring Classic and before that nerfing Classic cards or HoFing them but I won't get into that again.
The primary fix imo needs to come from the dust economy. And it is very simple, takes two to make one. That's the simple rule and mantra. DE two commons to make one common of choice. Two golden legendaries to make one golden legendary of choice. The latter is already the case, the former very much isn't but that is what I mean. Make it equal for all rarities and foils. Takes two to make one. Simple, good, beautiful.
There would still be issues after that, I think the current pace of expansions, especially adding Mini-sets is breakneck. Can't get to fully appreciate the meta before it changes. Have two expansions a year and they can't both be pack expansions with mini-sets. This ofc also helps players keep up in terms of gold better. I'd also really focus on reducing the RNG of the game, try to limit it and channel it. Also power creep is becoming a serious issue, keep the cards generally balanced.
Anyway I am sure I will be attacked by some rabid consoomers as usual. But these are just changes that are needed to keep the game healthy and fun for a long time. Because fun is the ultimate metric of a game, if it is fun it will be popular, a global and cultural phenomenon and that is what gives you lots of money. Massive numbers of happy players spending a little because they love your product. Not trying to fleece more and more a constantly decreasing pool of whales using Skinner box tactics. Old Blizz knew this new one... not so sure.
Do I expect to see all these changes? No, but the possibility remains to save this game. And yes I do think it very much needs saving, there is a kind of malaise affecting HS and it is dragging it surely towards the bottom. I think just about all players feel it even if they can't put their finger on it. Well the issues are these various bad policies working in tandem and feeding off each other, most of them stem from a shortsighted desire for profits over longterm sustainability of the game and player enjoyment. We as players need to speak up before it is too late to save this once great game.
A lot of the stuff they did is good but it came very late. For example, duplicate protection, the battle pass and the rewards for PLAYING the game, NOT for WINNING the game. (The 10 gold per 3 WINS imo was awful n motivated ppl to play fast hyperaggro decks). They do more nerfs and quicker than the previous times.
HS still has many flaws and I guess thats why people feel negative towards the devs. Demonhunter is a good example. Do we really need a hyperaggro class? Look how many cards got nerfed, it really seems like they do no play testing at all. Or remember snipsnap? When they didnt realize the priest combo? So they had to do a quick fix of that priest epic card which reduced mana cost of deathrattle minions.
Personally I dislike the devs a lot. Im a big fan of BGs, but its so horrible that BGs has so many flaws and noone of the devs gives a shit, especially Iksar. The damage you take early turns is way too high. The game is over before it really started in many cases. The matching system in a game is horrible, for example in the past you faced Opponent A, then B, then A again - they fixed that. But you still can face A, then B, then C, then A, then B. It feels so horrible especially if you have to play against Millhouse which puts you down to 50% after 5 Turns. Iksar is bragging on twitter with his BG acms, yeah cool kid, using internal data probably so he knows which heroes/minons are good :) He maybe should play some TFT and expand his mind. In TFT you face every opponent before you face someone twice. In BGs, I end up with games where I faced the same opponent 3 times, while others 0 times! Complete BS. It would actually involve skill if they did it like in TFT because if you keep track of ur opponents you can predict which one you will face next and adjust your strategy. Also the balance of the heroes, there is such a big difference between the power level. Usually in autobattlers you face the computer early turns and take no damage so you can look which minions to go for. In BGs, the early turns are already important, especially because you can take a lot of damage already, even if you try to spend ur gold wise.
EDIT: I dont mind paying for the game, Im kind of a whale, I always preorder, buy skins, bundles, whatever,I dont even mind spending money on BGs but what they offer in return is shit.
Multibillion $$$-companies dont try to get in touch with the "community". They try to get in touch with a "fanboigroup"-splintercell they think they will profit most by doing that. Thats the most optimistic point of view. Or they just pretend to listen at all and wont change a bit unless they get profit.
Its what they do, and keep in mind, its not only "gamecompanies". Every big corp is acting like that.
"NOW BETTER! WITH NEW RECIPE!" and we all know they just removed the good stuff with cheaper stuff. And they claim "thats what the customer wants!" May it be nutella, breakfast crisps, your fav pizza or... hearthstone.
There's never been a relationship between blizzard and the community. They sell games and we play games. You might think that makes us parters but in reality we are rivals with pretty much opposite goals, they want as much of our money as they can and we want to enjoy games with as little money as possible.
Why people care that blizzard is talking to them and pretenting to be on their side is beyond me, all they should care about is monetization, and this has only gotten worse over the years, wether blizzard communicates or not.
There's never been a relationship between blizzard and the community. They sell games and we play games. You might think that makes us parters but in reality we are rivals with pretty much opposite goals, they want as much of our money as they can and we want to enjoy games with as little money as possible.
Why people care that blizzard is talking to them and pretenting to be on their side is beyond me, all they should care about is monetization, and this has only gotten worse over the years, wether blizzard communicates or not.
Lol my dude what are you talking about
People want to enjoy the game. Blizzard wants people to enjoy the game, because increased enjoyment = increased engagement = more spend.
Since the most popular mode is BG right now, they need to convert those players into actual players of the card game. That means more events and a lower barrier of entry.
To assume that they have opposite goals is silly. Companies make money by giving players what they want. I've been buying the mega bundle for the last few sets because I've been enjoying the game and the changes they make. I buy skins once in a while if it's something I really like.
I sell RL trading cards as a side job, so when I open $400 of packs and pull $180 in value, then go back to Hearthstone and get an entire set with $80 worth of spend, I really don't see a problem with it.
There's never been a relationship between blizzard and the community. They sell games and we play games. You might think that makes us parters but in reality we are rivals with pretty much opposite goals, they want as much of our money as they can and we want to enjoy games with as little money as possible.
Why people care that blizzard is talking to them and pretenting to be on their side is beyond me, all they should care about is monetization, and this has only gotten worse over the years, wether blizzard communicates or not.
Lol my dude what are you talking about
People want to enjoy the game. Blizzard wants people to enjoy the game, because increased enjoyment = increased engagement = more spend.
Since the most popular mode is BG right now, they need to convert those players into actual players of the card game. That means more events and a lower barrier of entry.
To assume that they have opposite goals is silly. Companies make money by giving players what they want. I've been buying the mega bundle for the last few sets because I've been enjoying the game and the changes they make. I buy skins once in a while if it's something I really like.
I sell RL trading cards as a side job, so when I open $400 of packs and pull $180 in value, then go back to Hearthstone and get an entire set with $80 worth of spend, I really don't see a problem with it.
People only want to enjoy games that they can afford. And they make you feel like you can afford this game with monthly expansions instead of telling you "5 years from now, you'll have spent $80 on 15 expansions and not even get half of the epic and legendary cards in you collection".
You do not get an entire set with $80 in Hearthstone, not even close, not even in 2014 when monetization was still decent. Either way, you would be happier and enjoy the game more if you got your "entire" set at a lower price. And it's totally irrelevant to this discussion what you do with your money outside of hearthstone and what is the value of your RL trading cards.
You pull $0 in value, in Hearthstone or in real life, cards are worth nothing. Whatever story you tell yourself when you open or sell packs is fine but don't pretend you or blizzard sell cards to make us enjoy your game. It's just a simple business and people don't do business for other people they do it for themself. People's enjoyement is just a means to an end. And they achieve this with an entire department of people who get paid to analyse data, behaviors, psychology to come up with predatory and addictive tactics, that you call "engagement" and "relationship" and "communication".
But fair enough let me rephrase what I said, I won't speak for the community : Blizzard and I have opposite goals, they want me to spend thousands of dollars for their game over the years and I want to play and enjoy their game without spending anymore because I have already spent more than a thousand and I should be able to enjoy the game forever at that point, I couldn't care less about the communication and relationship between Blizzard and the community as long as monetization gets worse and they get more simps like me to spend thousands on a video game, and you are a simp with a different point of view. Don't be offended, we are all Blizzard simps.
And yes, I know this game is FTP and if you play enough you can get everything for free. I know someone is going to make this point like it matters to the people who already spent / who can't play a lot.
Honestly, it will never be the same without someone like Ben Brode interacting with the community quite often. Those days are gone forever and a large part of the community is guilty of that, especially those stupid f..ks who send him death threats. Sigh...
I'm not saying Ben Brode was irreplaceable or something like that, only that Blizzard is never going to try something similar again thanks to all those f..king geniuses. -.-
The battlepass blew up in their face to a degree that is hard to come back from. Blizzard lied about what it would be, then was silent for weeks while the community raged against them. Then finally caved without ever acknowledging how horrible the initial iteration was.
When you combine that with ridiculous weighted RNG, a hidden matchmaker and a complete disregard for any semblance of a competitive game, you should not be surprised. The pro players mostly quit, the streamers who gain popularity are the critics and the websites are mainly dead except for people who complain about the game and those that deride them for doing so.
So I ask you a question. What do you get when you turn your game into a RNG clown fiesta rigged to stimulate spending instead of an interesting competitive game? You get what you fucking deserve.
The battlepass blew up in their face to a degree that is hard to come back from. Blizzard lied about what it would be, then was silent for weeks while the community raged against them. Then finally caved without ever acknowledging how horrible the initial iteration was.
When you combine that with ridiculous weighted RNG, a hidden matchmaker and a complete disregard for any semblance of a competitive game, you should not be surprised. The pro players mostly quit, the streamers who gain popularity are the critics and the websites are mainly dead except for people who complain about the game and those that deride them for doing so.
So I ask you a question. What do you get when you turn your game into a RNG clown fiesta rigged to stimulate spending instead of an interesting competitive game? You get what you fucking deserve.
Can someone tell me of the Battlepass Drama? It was from before I came back.
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Hey all, I was just thinking about this the other day. Basically I don't think there was ever a point in HS history thus far where the community was this totally apathetic to the dev team or even downright mistrustful.
Basically in the past it when something like this
Ben Brode - "Hey look at this crappy card we made Mayor Noggenfogger, it's entering the game soon!"
Entire community gets hyped and jokes about the card
Nu-devs "hey here is 200+ free cards, new game modes and a free battlepass system"
*crickets*
I think a lot of people have been feeling optimistic about the extent the developers are engaging the community. For a while we had pretty regular Twitter AMAs, you see more nerfs than before in response to community concerns about card power levels, and the developers have increasingly given clearer roadmaps about what’s to come.
It’s impossible to make everyone happy and there will always be detractors. People still feel that the price of expansions, packs, and dust exchange are out of touch. A lot people also feel like the new content is stuff they didn’t ask for and do not care for—book of heroes, BGs, duels, new skins, etc.
generally speaking, I think a lot of the initial hype for the game is gone and a lot of the community is jaded about different aspects of the past in contrast to what’s happening/is coming.
I think it’s gotten a bit better recently. I mean a few months ago (announcement of the battlepass) was pretty low.
Coming back to the game last October after a 3 year break though I was astounded at the state of the game. Playing against Rogue and Mage the first few times I assumed I was playing against meme decks, that the ridiculous random generation decks were top tier or close to it never crossed my mind at first, and then demon hunter aggro with their insane card draw was baffling to me. I’m undecided whether or not to stick around again, if they show restraint with the power level of cards, tone down the RNG and keep up their recent ‘good will’ I’ll be happy, but I doubt it.
Since the battlepass outrage, I think they’ve definitely tried to do more to be in touch with the player base. More communication and pretty fast response time to problematic metas.
The new team is the best they Made hs LOT better been playing seens closed beta and i can only say the game has never felt better. Better for free to play more modes better changes and better rewards i love the direction the game is going and will support it as long they keep the game this Way.
I guess we will have Classic at least.
I do like some of the things they did, duplicate protection mainly. Being more responsive is nice but you know, show me the money. What players really want is material advantages. Well ofc second to the game being fun in the first place ofc but you know what I mean. And for that you gotta keep your eye on the economy of the game. I think Standard is an overlooked event, maybe it's just been to long but I remember it and still dislike it. What Standard effectively did was it gave your cards a two year lifetime (at best) before they are thrown to the garbage pile, Wild. And sorry for players who enjoy Wild but that is what it effectively is. And then there is this mess with retiring Classic and before that nerfing Classic cards or HoFing them but I won't get into that again.
The primary fix imo needs to come from the dust economy. And it is very simple, takes two to make one. That's the simple rule and mantra. DE two commons to make one common of choice. Two golden legendaries to make one golden legendary of choice. The latter is already the case, the former very much isn't but that is what I mean. Make it equal for all rarities and foils. Takes two to make one. Simple, good, beautiful.
There would still be issues after that, I think the current pace of expansions, especially adding Mini-sets is breakneck. Can't get to fully appreciate the meta before it changes. Have two expansions a year and they can't both be pack expansions with mini-sets. This ofc also helps players keep up in terms of gold better. I'd also really focus on reducing the RNG of the game, try to limit it and channel it. Also power creep is becoming a serious issue, keep the cards generally balanced.
Anyway I am sure I will be attacked by some rabid consoomers as usual. But these are just changes that are needed to keep the game healthy and fun for a long time. Because fun is the ultimate metric of a game, if it is fun it will be popular, a global and cultural phenomenon and that is what gives you lots of money. Massive numbers of happy players spending a little because they love your product. Not trying to fleece more and more a constantly decreasing pool of whales using Skinner box tactics. Old Blizz knew this new one... not so sure.
Do I expect to see all these changes? No, but the possibility remains to save this game. And yes I do think it very much needs saving, there is a kind of malaise affecting HS and it is dragging it surely towards the bottom. I think just about all players feel it even if they can't put their finger on it. Well the issues are these various bad policies working in tandem and feeding off each other, most of them stem from a shortsighted desire for profits over longterm sustainability of the game and player enjoyment. We as players need to speak up before it is too late to save this once great game.
A lot of the stuff they did is good but it came very late. For example, duplicate protection, the battle pass and the rewards for PLAYING the game, NOT for WINNING the game. (The 10 gold per 3 WINS imo was awful n motivated ppl to play fast hyperaggro decks). They do more nerfs and quicker than the previous times.
HS still has many flaws and I guess thats why people feel negative towards the devs. Demonhunter is a good example. Do we really need a hyperaggro class? Look how many cards got nerfed, it really seems like they do no play testing at all. Or remember snipsnap? When they didnt realize the priest combo? So they had to do a quick fix of that priest epic card which reduced mana cost of deathrattle minions.
Personally I dislike the devs a lot. Im a big fan of BGs, but its so horrible that BGs has so many flaws and noone of the devs gives a shit, especially Iksar. The damage you take early turns is way too high. The game is over before it really started in many cases. The matching system in a game is horrible, for example in the past you faced Opponent A, then B, then A again - they fixed that. But you still can face A, then B, then C, then A, then B. It feels so horrible especially if you have to play against Millhouse which puts you down to 50% after 5 Turns. Iksar is bragging on twitter with his BG acms, yeah cool kid, using internal data probably so he knows which heroes/minons are good :) He maybe should play some TFT and expand his mind. In TFT you face every opponent before you face someone twice. In BGs, I end up with games where I faced the same opponent 3 times, while others 0 times! Complete BS. It would actually involve skill if they did it like in TFT because if you keep track of ur opponents you can predict which one you will face next and adjust your strategy. Also the balance of the heroes, there is such a big difference between the power level. Usually in autobattlers you face the computer early turns and take no damage so you can look which minions to go for. In BGs, the early turns are already important, especially because you can take a lot of damage already, even if you try to spend ur gold wise.
EDIT: I dont mind paying for the game, Im kind of a whale, I always preorder, buy skins, bundles, whatever,I dont even mind spending money on BGs but what they offer in return is shit.
Then please go to twitter and ask Iksar to do something about these things in BGs. I do agree with you.
Multibillion $$$-companies dont try to get in touch with the "community". They try to get in touch with a "fanboigroup"-splintercell they think they will profit most by doing that. Thats the most optimistic point of view. Or they just pretend to listen at all and wont change a bit unless they get profit.
Its what they do, and keep in mind, its not only "gamecompanies". Every big corp is acting like that.
"NOW BETTER! WITH NEW RECIPE!" and we all know they just removed the good stuff with cheaper stuff. And they claim "thats what the customer wants!" May it be nutella, breakfast crisps, your fav pizza or... hearthstone.
The sooner you realize this, the better.
Yeah I think the outrage was the turning point for communication. It's a lot better than before but still too soon to tell.
Oh and I forgot the BG animations. Especially if you want to play pirate. People arent cheating, Blizzard could easily fix it :)
There's never been a relationship between blizzard and the community. They sell games and we play games. You might think that makes us parters but in reality we are rivals with pretty much opposite goals, they want as much of our money as they can and we want to enjoy games with as little money as possible.
Why people care that blizzard is talking to them and pretenting to be on their side is beyond me, all they should care about is monetization, and this has only gotten worse over the years, wether blizzard communicates or not.
Lol my dude what are you talking about
People want to enjoy the game. Blizzard wants people to enjoy the game, because increased enjoyment = increased engagement = more spend.
Since the most popular mode is BG right now, they need to convert those players into actual players of the card game. That means more events and a lower barrier of entry.
To assume that they have opposite goals is silly. Companies make money by giving players what they want. I've been buying the mega bundle for the last few sets because I've been enjoying the game and the changes they make. I buy skins once in a while if it's something I really like.
I sell RL trading cards as a side job, so when I open $400 of packs and pull $180 in value, then go back to Hearthstone and get an entire set with $80 worth of spend, I really don't see a problem with it.
People only want to enjoy games that they can afford. And they make you feel like you can afford this game with monthly expansions instead of telling you "5 years from now, you'll have spent $80 on 15 expansions and not even get half of the epic and legendary cards in you collection".
You do not get an entire set with $80 in Hearthstone, not even close, not even in 2014 when monetization was still decent. Either way, you would be happier and enjoy the game more if you got your "entire" set at a lower price. And it's totally irrelevant to this discussion what you do with your money outside of hearthstone and what is the value of your RL trading cards.
You pull $0 in value, in Hearthstone or in real life, cards are worth nothing. Whatever story you tell yourself when you open or sell packs is fine but don't pretend you or blizzard sell cards to make us enjoy your game. It's just a simple business and people don't do business for other people they do it for themself. People's enjoyement is just a means to an end. And they achieve this with an entire department of people who get paid to analyse data, behaviors, psychology to come up with predatory and addictive tactics, that you call "engagement" and "relationship" and "communication".
But fair enough let me rephrase what I said, I won't speak for the community : Blizzard and I have opposite goals, they want me to spend thousands of dollars for their game over the years and I want to play and enjoy their game without spending anymore because I have already spent more than a thousand and I should be able to enjoy the game forever at that point, I couldn't care less about the communication and relationship between Blizzard and the community as long as monetization gets worse and they get more simps like me to spend thousands on a video game, and you are a simp with a different point of view. Don't be offended, we are all Blizzard simps.
And yes, I know this game is FTP and if you play enough you can get everything for free. I know someone is going to make this point like it matters to the people who already spent / who can't play a lot.
Honestly, it will never be the same without someone like Ben Brode interacting with the community quite often. Those days are gone forever and a large part of the community is guilty of that, especially those stupid f..ks who send him death threats. Sigh...
I'm not saying Ben Brode was irreplaceable or something like that, only that Blizzard is never going to try something similar again thanks to all those f..king geniuses. -.-
The battlepass blew up in their face to a degree that is hard to come back from. Blizzard lied about what it would be, then was silent for weeks while the community raged against them. Then finally caved without ever acknowledging how horrible the initial iteration was.
When you combine that with ridiculous weighted RNG, a hidden matchmaker and a complete disregard for any semblance of a competitive game, you should not be surprised. The pro players mostly quit, the streamers who gain popularity are the critics and the websites are mainly dead except for people who complain about the game and those that deride them for doing so.
So I ask you a question. What do you get when you turn your game into a RNG clown fiesta rigged to stimulate spending instead of an interesting competitive game? You get what you fucking deserve.
Can someone tell me of the Battlepass Drama? It was from before I came back.