Heistbaron Togwaggle does not draw from a random pool. He is not affected by this change.
It's obvious I meant in regards to Zargog's Crown, but thanks anyway.
How is it obvious? You write the word "Togwaggle," people are going to think you mean Togwaggle, especially when Togwaggle has an effect similar to discover.
But if you're giving everyone license to put words in your mouth, I promise to be as creative as possible with that permission.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
I know many are happy about the Discover changes, but I think it's a huge mistake. The whole point of Discover cards was to get something in your class more often than not. It wasn't always a sure thing, but playing the card meant you weren't getting complete random garbage from Discover cards.
Why are people happy about this? This turns Discover cards into RNG factories and the whole point of Discover was to eliminate the purely random stuff that can win or lose you games because you 'got lucky' or 'unlucky'.
More randomness is NOT needed in Hearthstone. This really takes the skill testing and playing around 'known' cards that the Discover cards could fetch for you. Now you can' t play around anything.
And before anyone makes a comment regarding me playing Control Warrior...I do. But I also play ALL of the classes fairly evenly. I jump around based on my mood. I have over 500 wins with all the classes, so before those comments flare up, just wanted to negate that.
Do you want your Hearthstone game to be more RNG and less thinking or playing around known cards? There are so many ways to play around what Control Warrior does. Sure, they can get 10 Omega Devastator's in the game. I can still beat them with other decks.
This is exactly like the nerf to Tess. They specifically stated that Tess would work like the pre-nerf Yogg. They boasted this fact and showed it on stream. Then they nerfed Tess to be exactly like post-nerf Yogg completely killing the power level of the card. They had to revert back to the pre-nerf Tess because not only did people complain (rightly so), they said it was going to work a specific way because they designed it that way. To go back on that is terrible.
Discover cards were and are specifically designed FROM THE BEGINNING to get you class cards more often. It's why you play them. Getting complete random crap drastically weakens the card. Weakens the skill testing of your opponent and weakens the game of Hearthstone overall.
People who are happy with this change do not realize this has lasting impacts far beyond nerfing Control Warrior. This is terrible for the game and goes completely against what Discover was supposed to represent.
If these numbers are correct....
According to Old Guardian it went from 16.29% to 4.26% for discovery drone to get a specific Omega Devastator, etc. Flunky went from 53.72% to get a warrior taunt (Flunky/Armegadillo) to 19.10%.
Then this is not a simple tweak to power levels of cards. This is a huge nerf that they tried to sneak into the patch without drawing attention to it. This is disingenuous and there are so many ways to 'fix' the cards people are unhappy with, but instead, they nerfed all of the Discover cards (that used to pull from class cards).
How can anyone look at the numbers above and think....'That's fine. Nothing to see here. At least Warrior gets hosed.'
Can someone explain to me how they think more RNG is good for Hearthstone?
Thank you!
I feel the same. They are changing a basic rule because certain ROTATING cards are too strong in the CURRENT standard meta. This is just dumb.
Before anyone says "CW player spotted" I play more Power of Creation than Frightened Flunky, so I should feel lucky for the buff. But on the long run, and also in wild this is a bad change IMO.
People who argue things like 'CW player' because of a complaint are not too swift in the head if that's your only argument. It would be like saying someone who hates smoking or smokers, must have lung cancer. Yeah, real sound argument here.
The argument should be centered around not what decks people are playing, but that a core mechanism in Hearthstone has drastically changed and the devs tried to hide it.
Can someone explain to me how they think more RNG is good for Hearthstone?
The goal isn't to just arbitrarily add RNG to Hearthstone. The goal is to reduce the consistency of Discover effects, which have proven to be overpowered -- especially those that draw from a narrow pool such as Mechs or Taunt minions.
The so-called "bad RNG" isn't going to creep into the competitive meta, because as the consistency of these cards drops, people will stop using these cards. Yes, some will still go full casino, but those people will never get to high ranks that way. They can continue to have their memes, and the rest of us don't have to watch people win by abusing the class-card bonus.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
I know many are happy about the Discover changes, but I think it's a huge mistake. The whole point of Discover cards was to get something in your class more often than not. It wasn't always a sure thing, but playing the card meant you weren't getting complete random garbage from Discover cards.
Why are people happy about this? This turns Discover cards into RNG factories and the whole point of Discover was to eliminate the purely random stuff that can win or lose you games because you 'got lucky' or 'unlucky'.
More randomness is NOT needed in Hearthstone. This really takes the skill testing and playing around 'known' cards that the Discover cards could fetch for you. Now you can' t play around anything.
And before anyone makes a comment regarding me playing Control Warrior...I do. But I also play ALL of the classes fairly evenly. I jump around based on my mood. I have over 500 wins with all the classes, so before those comments flare up, just wanted to negate that.
Do you want your Hearthstone game to be more RNG and less thinking or playing around known cards? There are so many ways to play around what Control Warrior does. Sure, they can get 10 Omega Devastator's in the game. I can still beat them with other decks.
This is exactly like the nerf to Tess. They specifically stated that Tess would work like the pre-nerf Yogg. They boasted this fact and showed it on stream. Then they nerfed Tess to be exactly like post-nerf Yogg completely killing the power level of the card. They had to revert back to the pre-nerf Tess because not only did people complain (rightly so), they said it was going to work a specific way because they designed it that way. To go back on that is terrible.
Discover cards were and are specifically designed FROM THE BEGINNING to get you class cards more often. It's why you play them. Getting complete random crap drastically weakens the card. Weakens the skill testing of your opponent and weakens the game of Hearthstone overall.
People who are happy with this change do not realize this has lasting impacts far beyond nerfing Control Warrior. This is terrible for the game and goes completely against what Discover was supposed to represent.
If these numbers are correct....
According to Old Guardian it went from 16.29% to 4.26% for discovery drone to get a specific Omega Devastator, etc. Flunky went from 53.72% to get a warrior taunt (Flunky/Armegadillo) to 19.10%.
Then this is not a simple tweak to power levels of cards. This is a huge nerf that they tried to sneak into the patch without drawing attention to it. This is disingenuous and there are so many ways to 'fix' the cards people are unhappy with, but instead, they nerfed all of the Discover cards (that used to pull from class cards).
How can anyone look at the numbers above and think....'That's fine. Nothing to see here. At least Warrior gets hosed.'
Can someone explain to me how they think more RNG is good for Hearthstone?
There is a give and take. You reduce consistency, you will increase randomness. I understand the 'intent' of the change, but the end result is undesirable for those that don't want more random cards in Hearthstone. Discover was the one mechanism that gave you some control over the cards and required some skill testing because you purposely built your deck to include these cards knowing that class cards are 'MORE' likely to be discovered. It is NOT 100% so I don't understand why it needed to be changed. If it was automatically a class card, then I would argue and agree with you.
It's the same idea with card draw cards. You know you are going to draw a card that you put into your deck. That is 100% going to happen, except you can't control what card it will be. That is normalized randomness in the game that is acceptable for card games.
No one can argue that this change will make the game more random, can you? So are you willing to accept more randomness because the 'consistency' of Discovering a class card was so oppressive?
As I said before, if those numbers are correct regarding Flunky, how is a 50% to get a warrior taunt card broken? Here is the thing though, the more taunts that are added, the less consistent.
I am baffled at how many on these forums complain about 'bad RNG' and then when an obvious change makes Discover 'bad RNG' that people are ok with this.
No Discover card EVER gave you 100% to get the card you want (except maybe Zephrys). Nor would I want it to do that. What I am asking for is playing a card knowing I have a larger chance to Discover a class card. That's why people play Discover cards in tournaments, for the power level of the cards.
So instead of Blizzard and the Devs admitting that they make powerful class cards that maybe shouldn't be created, instead they nerf every single card that was played for that single purpose.
I stubbed my toe on my dresser. Instead of me moving the dresser so its not in my walking path, I am going to remove all dressers from my house. That'll fix the problem. I mean it will, I won't stub my toe anymore. I also don't have any dressers in my house.
I guess that's a lose-lose for the Hearthstone community. Even if you don't see it.
No one can argue that this change will make the game more random, can you? So are you willing to accept more randomness because the 'consistency' of Discovering a class card was so oppressive?
How is it obvious? You write the word "Togwaggle," people are going to think you mean Togwaggle, especially when Togwaggle has an effect similar to discover.
But if you're giving everyone license to put words in your mouth, I promise to be as creative as possible with that permission.
Because it's the only Togwaggle card that was affect by the change. 2 seconds of thought makes that clear.
There is a give and take. You reduce consistency, you will increase randomness. I understand the 'intent' of the change, but the end result is undesirable for those that don't want more random cards in Hearthstone. Discover was the one mechanism that gave you some control over the cards and required some skill testing because you purposely built your deck to include these cards knowing that class cards are 'MORE' likely to be discovered. It is NOT 100% so I don't understand why it needed to be changed. If it was automatically a class card, then I would argue and agree with you.
It's the same idea with card draw cards. You know you are going to draw a card that you put into your deck. That is 100% going to happen, except you can't control what card it will be. That is normalized randomness in the game that is acceptable for card games.
No one can argue that this change will make the game more random, can you? So are you willing to accept more randomness because the 'consistency' of Discovering a class card was so oppressive?
As I said before, if those numbers are correct regarding Flunky, how is a 50% to get a warrior taunt card broken? Here is the thing though, the more taunts that are added, the less consistent.
I am baffled at how many on these forums complain about 'bad RNG' and then when an obvious change makes Discover 'bad RNG' that people are ok with this.
No Discover card EVER gave you 100% to get the card you want (except maybe Zephrys). Nor would I want it to do that. What I am asking for is playing a card knowing I have a larger chance to Discover a class card. That's why people play Discover cards in tournaments, for the power level of the cards.
So instead of Blizzard and the Devs admitting that they make powerful class cards that maybe shouldn't be created, instead they nerf every single card that was played for that single purpose.
I stubbed my toe on my dresser. Instead of me moving the dresser so its not in my walking path, I am going to remove all dressers from my house. That'll fix the problem. I mean it will, I won't stub my toe anymore. I also don't have any dressers in my house.
I guess that's a lose-lose for the Hearthstone community. Even if you don't see it.
You only increase the randomness because you reduce the occurence rate of instapick class cards like Omega D, Conj Calling, Duskbreaker, Tarim, Void lord etc. These purpose of Discover mechanic was to pick best of three cards depending on the situation, not to insta pick a single class card that will show up 20% of the time and blame bad RNG other 80% of the time.
Your point that Blizzard shouldn't print powerful class cards due to potential abuse by some discover effect or to dilute the pool for every class every time they print a discover effect is beyond ridiculous. Should Tirion and Tarim not exist because (Odd) Paladins can get multiple copies of them from Stonehill ? Hell no, Tirion and Tarim are both fine and powerful cards that have enabled many fun or unfun (depending on the person) Paladins decks. Should Paladins have 10 different Goldshire Footmans or Sliverbach Patarichs just so they can get powerful taunts due to potential abuse by some taunt discover effect ? obviously not, that's so impractical. Same can said for Flunky and Armagedillo, both are fine cards outside of that discover effect synergu AND Warrior shouldn't have ten bad taunts just to get two good ones.
And BTW why are you complaining about RNG in fucking HEARTHSTONE, it's been 6 years and you still didn't realise there was, is and always will be RNG in HS or any card game for that matter but especially in HS. Some people blame RNG for all their losses and some try to find the edge in all that clownfiesta. Hunterace, for instance, got Rank 1 legend in 2017 with Raza Priest multiple times in 2017, won most tour stops in 2018, won the World Championship and is on a 13 game unbeaten streak in GM across two seasons (70%+ wr in first season).
I am baffled at how many on these forums complain about 'bad RNG' and then when an obvious change makes Discover 'bad RNG' that people are ok with this.
Are you really baffled? Because in every one of those salty threads you mentioned, there are just as many people defending RNG as there are complaining about it.
After five years, you should realize that this crusade against RNG in Hearthstone is never going to go anywhere. The devs obviously love it, as do plenty of players. Even the puzzle box is receiving a lot more affection than I ever would have expected, though I do get that some of it is tongue-in-cheek.
Heistbaron Togwaggle does not draw from a random pool. He is not affected by this change.
It's obvious I meant in regards to Zargog's Crown, but thanks anyway.
How is it obvious? You write the word "Togwaggle," people are going to think you mean Togwaggle, especially when Togwaggle has an effect similar to discover.
But if you're giving everyone license to put words in your mouth, I promise to be as creative as possible with that permission.
It was super obvious tbf. Crown is the only discover effect Tog has access to and Rogue legendaries are almost all battlecry minons with trash stats. 2 + 2 = Togwaggle is buffed by the change.
Heistbaron Togwaggle does not draw from a random pool. He is not affected by this change.
It's obvious I meant in regards to Zargog's Crown, but thanks anyway.
How is it obvious? You write the word "Togwaggle," people are going to think you mean Togwaggle, especially when Togwaggle has an effect similar to discover.
But if you're giving everyone license to put words in your mouth, I promise to be as creative as possible with that permission.
It was super obvious tbf. Crown is the only discover effect Tog has access to and Rogue legendaries are almost all battlecry minons with trash stats. 2 + 2 = Togwaggle is buffed by the change.
Are you sure it's buffed that much ? Because a lot of neutral legendaries have very shitty stats too.
Heistbaron Togwaggle does not draw from a random pool. He is not affected by this change.
It's obvious I meant in regards to Zargog's Crown, but thanks anyway.
How is it obvious? You write the word "Togwaggle," people are going to think you mean Togwaggle, especially when Togwaggle has an effect similar to discover.
But if you're giving everyone license to put words in your mouth, I promise to be as creative as possible with that permission.
It was super obvious tbf. Crown is the only discover effect Tog has access to and Rogue legendaries are almost all battlecry minons with trash stats. 2 + 2 = Togwaggle is buffed by the change.
Are you sure it's buffed that much ? Because a lot of neutral legendaries have very shitty stats too.
Not that I specified how significantly it was buffed, but yes the buff is significant. 100% of Rogue legendary minions in standard are poorly statted, and all bar Tak have their power front loaded into their battlecries (which do not trigger off of crown). The strongest Rogue legendaries in terms of stats are 6/6 (Tess and Tak). There are three (ONE THIRD of standard format Rogue legendary minions) that are 2/2 (Edwin VanCleef, Face Collector and Gral) and the remaining are 6/3 (Hooktusk), 5/5 (Togwaggle and Anka) and 4/2 (Myra).
Every single Rogue legendary is a poor roll when you play crown so seeing them show up with 1/4 the frequency is a major buff. On average, neutral legendaries are better statted than Rogue legendaries (median neutral legendary stats are ~7/6) and significantly more of them have relevant abilities when they are in play.
That's ok. Next up is people complaining about how Zilliax and Sn1p-Sn4p gets discovered far too often and will call for another nerf because Warrior is too hard to play against.
Basically the same people defending the Discover change will not be happy and keep complaining. I would rather have Omega Devastator keep getting discovered instead of Zilliax because good luck killing a Warrior with healing and more healing.
And I have been playing Hearthstone from the start. The amount of RNG and random cards was a very small percentage of the game. Now, its an accepted part of the game. Because players did not voice their concerns loud enough, this is the players fault for allowing such things to go unspoken and pretend its good for the health of the game.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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How is it obvious? You write the word "Togwaggle," people are going to think you mean Togwaggle, especially when Togwaggle has an effect similar to discover.
But if you're giving everyone license to put words in your mouth, I promise to be as creative as possible with that permission.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
People who argue things like 'CW player' because of a complaint are not too swift in the head if that's your only argument. It would be like saying someone who hates smoking or smokers, must have lung cancer. Yeah, real sound argument here.
The argument should be centered around not what decks people are playing, but that a core mechanism in Hearthstone has drastically changed and the devs tried to hide it.
The goal isn't to just arbitrarily add RNG to Hearthstone. The goal is to reduce the consistency of Discover effects, which have proven to be overpowered -- especially those that draw from a narrow pool such as Mechs or Taunt minions.
The so-called "bad RNG" isn't going to creep into the competitive meta, because as the consistency of these cards drops, people will stop using these cards. Yes, some will still go full casino, but those people will never get to high ranks that way. They can continue to have their memes, and the rest of us don't have to watch people win by abusing the class-card bonus.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
You’re missing the entire point of this change.
There is a give and take. You reduce consistency, you will increase randomness. I understand the 'intent' of the change, but the end result is undesirable for those that don't want more random cards in Hearthstone. Discover was the one mechanism that gave you some control over the cards and required some skill testing because you purposely built your deck to include these cards knowing that class cards are 'MORE' likely to be discovered. It is NOT 100% so I don't understand why it needed to be changed. If it was automatically a class card, then I would argue and agree with you.
It's the same idea with card draw cards. You know you are going to draw a card that you put into your deck. That is 100% going to happen, except you can't control what card it will be. That is normalized randomness in the game that is acceptable for card games.
No one can argue that this change will make the game more random, can you? So are you willing to accept more randomness because the 'consistency' of Discovering a class card was so oppressive?
As I said before, if those numbers are correct regarding Flunky, how is a 50% to get a warrior taunt card broken? Here is the thing though, the more taunts that are added, the less consistent.
I am baffled at how many on these forums complain about 'bad RNG' and then when an obvious change makes Discover 'bad RNG' that people are ok with this.
No Discover card EVER gave you 100% to get the card you want (except maybe Zephrys). Nor would I want it to do that. What I am asking for is playing a card knowing I have a larger chance to Discover a class card. That's why people play Discover cards in tournaments, for the power level of the cards.
So instead of Blizzard and the Devs admitting that they make powerful class cards that maybe shouldn't be created, instead they nerf every single card that was played for that single purpose.
I stubbed my toe on my dresser. Instead of me moving the dresser so its not in my walking path, I am going to remove all dressers from my house. That'll fix the problem. I mean it will, I won't stub my toe anymore. I also don't have any dressers in my house.
I guess that's a lose-lose for the Hearthstone community. Even if you don't see it.
Absolutely.
/thread
Because it's the only Togwaggle card that was affect by the change. 2 seconds of thought makes that clear.
Get over yourself, kid.
You only increase the randomness because you reduce the occurence rate of instapick class cards like Omega D, Conj Calling, Duskbreaker, Tarim, Void lord etc. These purpose of Discover mechanic was to pick best of three cards depending on the situation, not to insta pick a single class card that will show up 20% of the time and blame bad RNG other 80% of the time.
Your point that Blizzard shouldn't print powerful class cards due to potential abuse by some discover effect or to dilute the pool for every class every time they print a discover effect is beyond ridiculous. Should Tirion and Tarim not exist because (Odd) Paladins can get multiple copies of them from Stonehill ? Hell no, Tirion and Tarim are both fine and powerful cards that have enabled many fun or unfun (depending on the person) Paladins decks. Should Paladins have 10 different Goldshire Footmans or Sliverbach Patarichs just so they can get powerful taunts due to potential abuse by some taunt discover effect ? obviously not, that's so impractical. Same can said for Flunky and Armagedillo, both are fine cards outside of that discover effect synergu AND Warrior shouldn't have ten bad taunts just to get two good ones.
And BTW why are you complaining about RNG in fucking HEARTHSTONE, it's been 6 years and you still didn't realise there was, is and always will be RNG in HS or any card game for that matter but especially in HS. Some people blame RNG for all their losses and some try to find the edge in all that clownfiesta. Hunterace, for instance, got Rank 1 legend in 2017 with Raza Priest multiple times in 2017, won most tour stops in 2018, won the World Championship and is on a 13 game unbeaten streak in GM across two seasons (70%+ wr in first season).
This is a major buff to Power of Creation, as the 6 cost Mage minions left something to be desired.
Are you really baffled? Because in every one of those salty threads you mentioned, there are just as many people defending RNG as there are complaining about it.
After five years, you should realize that this crusade against RNG in Hearthstone is never going to go anywhere. The devs obviously love it, as do plenty of players. Even the puzzle box is receiving a lot more affection than I ever would have expected, though I do get that some of it is tongue-in-cheek.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
It was super obvious tbf. Crown is the only discover effect Tog has access to and Rogue legendaries are almost all battlecry minons with trash stats. 2 + 2 = Togwaggle is buffed by the change.
Are you sure it's buffed that much ? Because a lot of neutral legendaries have very shitty stats too.
Not that I specified how significantly it was buffed, but yes the buff is significant. 100% of Rogue legendary minions in standard are poorly statted, and all bar Tak have their power front loaded into their battlecries (which do not trigger off of crown). The strongest Rogue legendaries in terms of stats are 6/6 (Tess and Tak). There are three (ONE THIRD of standard format Rogue legendary minions) that are 2/2 (Edwin VanCleef, Face Collector and Gral) and the remaining are 6/3 (Hooktusk), 5/5 (Togwaggle and Anka) and 4/2 (Myra).
Every single Rogue legendary is a poor roll when you play crown so seeing them show up with 1/4 the frequency is a major buff. On average, neutral legendaries are better statted than Rogue legendaries (median neutral legendary stats are ~7/6) and significantly more of them have relevant abilities when they are in play.
That's ok. Next up is people complaining about how Zilliax and Sn1p-Sn4p gets discovered far too often and will call for another nerf because Warrior is too hard to play against.
Basically the same people defending the Discover change will not be happy and keep complaining. I would rather have Omega Devastator keep getting discovered instead of Zilliax because good luck killing a Warrior with healing and more healing.
And I have been playing Hearthstone from the start. The amount of RNG and random cards was a very small percentage of the game. Now, its an accepted part of the game. Because players did not voice their concerns loud enough, this is the players fault for allowing such things to go unspoken and pretend its good for the health of the game.