45% of games in Casual are tier 1 and 2 netdecks. This is unacceptably high.
55% winrate is great, most people don't have that in Ranked with netdecks.
Who said I win 100% of my games against non netdecks? That's absurd.
Ok since you don't win any games against netdecks and don't win all games against non netdecks, you are still looking at winrate of 52%-53%. Still impressive.
It's not winrate that is my concern, it's the unacceptably high occurrence of netdecks in casual.
Let me re-ask this, yet again, to those who are fine with Casual as it is: In what way would your experience in Casual be made worse if Blizzard/T5 addressed these concerns by taking some/all of the actions recommended in this thread? You say Casual is fine as is - what are you protecting by being against changes that positively affect the portion of the playerbase who is unhappy with the current state of Casual?
TIL If you aren't a high legend streamer, you absolutely have no business winning games in casual.
Got it!
That is your rebuttal to my counter argument? Your concern about casual isn't going to accomplish much if you aren't willing to attempt to discredit my points that are already established with evidence from multiple sources.
While many of my observable examples are from streamers (since realistically the average player, meme or otherwise, does not record their games, even on hsreplay) that does not mean your average Sally/Joe doesn't pull of wins with meme decks on ladder and casual frequently.
Renounce Lock
Menagerie Warden OTK N'Zoth Druid
Ancient Curse Togwaggle Druid
Aviana K'Thun OTK Druid
Aviana Rag OTK Druid
N'Thun Reno Rogue
Big Rogue
Spiteful Mech Mage
Spectral Pillager Reno Rogue
Weasel Priest
Deathspeaker Geist Warlock
Pony/Maly Lock
^ Pick a meme deck and I'll upload countless picks of me winning against tier decks in casual (or on ladder depending on the deck). If you don't want examples from pro players and/or streamers then I'll offer up my own anecdotes as an example from an everyday player if you prefer.
Just because tier decks are generally favored against meme decks that does not mean wins are impossible or so disproportionately unflavored against you that you have a <40% win rate against them in casual. Some meme decks can hold their own, depending on which tier deck you get matched against. Just don't be taking your 30 1 mana minion deck in casual and expect to have the same results.
You're under the delusion that most other casual players are, which is thinking that if you add a meme card or two to a netdeck, it's suddenly not a netdeck. "It's not technically Cubelock, because I run a different 5-drop!" "It's not technically Odd Paladin because I run a meme card in it!" "It's not aggro Mage because it has no Pyroblast!" "It's not netdeck OTK Druid because it doesn't have Wrath in it!"
This still sidesteps basically my entire point: I DO NOT WANT TO PLAY AGAINST NETDECKS IN CASUAL.
Lol what? Only change a card or two? You clearly don't know what you're talking about in this regard.
Take the Deathspeaker Geist OTK Warlock for one example. I use a control lock shell for the deck (mainly for survivability) and due to having to include the meme OTK combo in the deck I have to substitute 8 cards in the deck. That is literally one fourth of the deck that is not the same as Control Lock, and yet you're going to even attempt to argue that a deck that is 25% different from a net deck is not a meme but is the same as what everyone else is playing?
Let's pick apart one of the other angles of your assumption about meme decks being net decks and that is calling a deck like an Aviana deck just a net deck simply because it uses the Aviana Kun OTK shell. A deck needs to be a tier net deck if it is a deck somebody made before, a large portion of the playerbase is using it, and the deck performs consistently enough that it dispatches other high performing decks that are on the tier list (tier 0-4). I'll use the Ancient Curse Togwaggle OTK druid I listed above as the example here. You're going to call an Aviana otk deck a tier/net deck when it relies on an 8 card combo to win? Not just an 8 card combo, but one that is capped off at 43 damage, requires your opponent to not have 9 or 10 cards in hand to execute, and that instantly loses to Dirty Rat or Demonic Project hitting just one of the 7 essential minion pieces? So you're more or less saying it is netdeck because it runs Aviana & Kun? You have funny criteria for something not being a meme deck.
I'll end with one more example just to illustrate the flaws in your defining of when a deck in casual is or is not a meme/net deck. So you're saying that a deck is a net deck in casual because it fits into sub category of an existing archtype that does have net decks in it (e.g. Calling a mage deck a net deck for being a sub category of aggro mage)? That is also faulty logic. I'll use the Spiteful Mech Mage listed above in this scenario. Mech mage by itself has been a net deck before when it ruled the GvG and part of the Naxx/TGT meta to a less successful extent. However, Mech Mage no longer dominates and it is a meme even though it got some neutral mech support. In addition to this Spiteful Mage has never been a tier deck, neither has a mesh of Spiteful Mage and Mech Mage (even when the list first appeared prior to the CC and Patches nerfs). Thus, the deck qualifies as a meme, not a netdeck or tier deck.
I'm honestly surprised by your misunderstanding of what a meme deck is in casual considering that you play them yourself.
yeah ok let's pretend a netdeck isn't a netdeck so that lyra can be right. .................................
just dont play t1 and t2 decks from VS or TS (or variants of) in Casual. Simple as that.
All of the decks I mentioned are memes. Trying to write off valid points with a two-liner response that says nothing does not change that.
You got called out for faulty reasoning and were presented with evidence of memes winning in casual, ladder, legend, AND high legend and you still insist you are right, or at least not wrong in your previous assumptions in this thread.
Let's not make this about stubborn pride and concede to the position that your claims have been refuted.
yeah ok let's pretend a netdeck isn't a netdeck so that lyra can be right. .................................
just dont play t1 and t2 decks from VS or TS (or variants of) in Casual. Simple as that.
All of the decks I mentioned are memes. Trying to write off valid points with a two-liner response that says nothing does not change that.
You got called out for faulty reasoning and were presented with evidence of memes winning in casual, ladder, legend, AND high legend and you still insist you are right, or at least not wrong in your previous assumptions in this thread.
Let's not make this about stubborn pride and concede to the position that your claims have been refuted.
You are incorrect. Some of the decks you listed are netdecks (though this may be a matter of opinion as you get closer to the line of what you call a netdeck....Big Rogue for example).
You didn't refute anything. 45% of decks being netdecks in Casual is unacceptably high. Why are you defending the current state? How would your experience be hurt by addressing the issues that myself and a lot of other players have?
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Let me re-ask this, yet again, to those who are fine with Casual as it is: In what way would your experience in Casual be made worse if Blizzard/T5 addressed these concerns by taking some/all of the actions recommended in this thread? You say Casual is fine as is - what are you protecting by being against changes that positively affect the portion of the playerbase who is unhappy with the current state of Casual?
We're protecting the casual mode itself from being ruined because you haven't convinced us that the changes you're proposing (mostly bans) are in fact positive. Card/deck bans aren't going to bring diversity to casual. In fact, we already have card bans disguised as expansion rotations, which have resulted in the very same netdecks in standard you're trying to remedy. Now look at wild, where there are no card bans and tell me where you see more diversity.
Let me re-ask this, yet again, to those who are fine with Casual as it is: In what way would your experience in Casual be made worse if Blizzard/T5 addressed these concerns by taking some/all of the actions recommended in this thread? You say Casual is fine as is - what are you protecting by being against changes that positively affect the portion of the playerbase who is unhappy with the current state of Casual?
We're protecting the casual mode itself from being ruined because you haven't convinced us that the changes you're proposing (mostly bans) are in fact positive. Card/deck bans aren't going to bring diversity to casual. In fact, we already have card bans disguised as expansion rotations, which have resulted in the very same netdecks in standard you're trying to remedy. Now look at wild, where there are no card bans and tell me where you see more diversity.
I don't play much casual in standard so I couldn't tell you. I'm not a game designer so it's not on me to find the solutions. It's not up to me to convince you that a change wouldn't be negative. Maybe it would be a bad thing? I don't know? What does it hurt to try? What are you defending that you're afraid of losing in casual if changes happened?
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yeah ok let's pretend a netdeck isn't a netdeck so that lyra can be right. .................................
just dont play t1 and t2 decks from VS or TS (or variants of) in Casual. Simple as that.
All of the decks I mentioned are memes. Trying to write off valid points with a two-liner response that says nothing does not change that.
You got called out for faulty reasoning and were presented with evidence of memes winning in casual, ladder, legend, AND high legend and you still insist you are right, or at least not wrong in your previous assumptions in this thread.
Let's not make this about stubborn pride and concede to the position that your claims have been refuted.
You are incorrect. Some of the decks you listed are netdecks (though this may be a matter of opinion as you get closer to the line of what you call a netdeck....Big Rogue for example).
You didn't refute anything. 45% of decks being netdecks in Casual is unacceptably high. Why are you defending the current state? How would your experience be hurt by addressing the issues that myself and a lot of other players have?
A Big Rogue listed that is stylized almost exactly like Dane's would be a net deck. However, there are multiple ways to build such a deck that would not fit into such a category. It needs to be kept in mind that every archtype has one or more staples, and just because an archtype intelligently uses those staples that doesn't mean it is a net deck even after changing up other non-essential cards. A Cubelock can't be a Cubelock without including the cube, An Aviana combo can't be an Aviana OTK combo without Aviana, and Big Rogue currently can't be a big deck without a means of cheesing out big things early. The deck classifies as a meme deck still because it does not consistently go toe-to-toe with Odd Rogue, Smorc Shaman, Odd Pally, Reno Lock, Reno Mage, & some druid combos. As much as I love Dane and his deckbuilding Big Rogue still suffers from typical big deck highrolling, which affects its consistency. If your Kobold Illusionists and Barnes are near the bottom of the deck you are much more likely to lose seeing as the deck becomes a Big Priest with no res spells or capability to cheese out copies for 6 mana.
Nice straw man fallacy there. I wasn't debating about the percentages of netdecks vs non-netdecks in casual. I was debating against your claims that 1) meme decks cannot beat tier decks and 2) a deck is not a meme and/or non-netdeck when it changes a substantial number of cards in said deck and/or is not a deck that consistently competes against top tier decks on ladder.
Your points were refuted. It is a fact that RDU did defeat 3 high legend players in a row at rank 1 legend with a randomized Whizbang deck, just like it is a fact that Firebat, Kibler, Thijs, Hysteria, & other streamers frequently defeat top tier decks on ladder and at legend with decks that are memes. From a non-pro player perspective many users on here could immediately provide screenshots or hsreplays of games where they did something similar, including casual play as well. For my other point I could provide decklists for the decks I have mentioned to express that they are memes and not net decks, and I provided explanations for why they do not fit into the category of tier deck or net deck. The latter was a claim you rejected with no rational debate.
I defend the current state because this game released with no arbitrary restrictions on what you could play in casual. I aim to promote the idea that the game remains in the state of being able to simply start the game up, quickly choose any deck that you really enjoy playing and then play it. I oppose the perspective of turning casual mode into a forced HS version of WoW's custom group finder (ie That players are blacklisted from playing certain decks/cards in the format or that they have their queues manipulated into only giving them a certain style of opponent, such as tier decks only face tier deck and dank memes only face dank memes). Your stance runs contrary to this, hence my opposition to your arguments. Pretty simple when you think about it. You want to force players to play a particular way and I don't. Players should have the autonomy to play how they want, in as much as it doesn't infringe on other players being able to make a free choice to make decisions on how they will play.
Then what constitutes a productive stance on the state of Casual? This isn't a made up statistic. I tracked every game of Casual I played over a two week and 235 game period. If you're going to simply dismiss it lazily with "salt" then you might as well not even post here because it does nothing to contribute.
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Lyra's argument was to refute something that wasn't even my main point. It's not that sometimes meme decks can beat netdecks (and yes, I do enjoy the occasional foray into ladder with meme decks to tear up low ranks/floors). It's that netdecks have a dedicated format already, non netdecks do not, and (IMO) 45% of games of casual being netdecks is too high.
edit: Let me ask it again - those of you defending the current state of casual - what are you afraid of if there are changes made? What quality are you clinging to that you don't want to go away?
This isn't 1998 anymore. We need to stop complaining about netdecking and just accept that it will always happen and there's literally nothing to be done about it.
The answer, such that any exists, is to play with friends.
This isn't 1998 anymore. We need to stop complaining about netdecking and just accept that it will always happen and there's literally nothing to be done about it.
The answer, such that any exists, is to play with friends.
To accept the problem is to admit the problem exists.
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Maybe create a second casual mode in which cards that are being successful in ladder (high % of usage/win rate) are banned.
This list of cards could be updated every week/season.
It's not winrate that is my concern, it's the unacceptably high occurrence of netdecks in casual.
Let me re-ask this, yet again, to those who are fine with Casual as it is: In what way would your experience in Casual be made worse if Blizzard/T5 addressed these concerns by taking some/all of the actions recommended in this thread? You say Casual is fine as is - what are you protecting by being against changes that positively affect the portion of the playerbase who is unhappy with the current state of Casual?
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Lol what? Only change a card or two? You clearly don't know what you're talking about in this regard.
Take the Deathspeaker Geist OTK Warlock for one example. I use a control lock shell for the deck (mainly for survivability) and due to having to include the meme OTK combo in the deck I have to substitute 8 cards in the deck. That is literally one fourth of the deck that is not the same as Control Lock, and yet you're going to even attempt to argue that a deck that is 25% different from a net deck is not a meme but is the same as what everyone else is playing?
Let's pick apart one of the other angles of your assumption about meme decks being net decks and that is calling a deck like an Aviana deck just a net deck simply because it uses the Aviana Kun OTK shell. A deck needs to be a tier net deck if it is a deck somebody made before, a large portion of the playerbase is using it, and the deck performs consistently enough that it dispatches other high performing decks that are on the tier list (tier 0-4). I'll use the Ancient Curse Togwaggle OTK druid I listed above as the example here. You're going to call an Aviana otk deck a tier/net deck when it relies on an 8 card combo to win? Not just an 8 card combo, but one that is capped off at 43 damage, requires your opponent to not have 9 or 10 cards in hand to execute, and that instantly loses to Dirty Rat or Demonic Project hitting just one of the 7 essential minion pieces? So you're more or less saying it is netdeck because it runs Aviana & Kun? You have funny criteria for something not being a meme deck.
I'll end with one more example just to illustrate the flaws in your defining of when a deck in casual is or is not a meme/net deck. So you're saying that a deck is a net deck in casual because it fits into sub category of an existing archtype that does have net decks in it (e.g. Calling a mage deck a net deck for being a sub category of aggro mage)? That is also faulty logic. I'll use the Spiteful Mech Mage listed above in this scenario. Mech mage by itself has been a net deck before when it ruled the GvG and part of the Naxx/TGT meta to a less successful extent. However, Mech Mage no longer dominates and it is a meme even though it got some neutral mech support. In addition to this Spiteful Mage has never been a tier deck, neither has a mesh of Spiteful Mage and Mech Mage (even when the list first appeared prior to the CC and Patches nerfs). Thus, the deck qualifies as a meme, not a netdeck or tier deck.
I'm honestly surprised by your misunderstanding of what a meme deck is in casual considering that you play them yourself.
yeah ok let's pretend a netdeck isn't a netdeck so that lyra can be right. .................................
just dont play t1 and t2 decks from VS or TS (or variants of) in Casual. Simple as that.
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All of the decks I mentioned are memes. Trying to write off valid points with a two-liner response that says nothing does not change that.
You got called out for faulty reasoning and were presented with evidence of memes winning in casual, ladder, legend, AND high legend and you still insist you are right, or at least not wrong in your previous assumptions in this thread.
Let's not make this about stubborn pride and concede to the position that your claims have been refuted.
You are incorrect. Some of the decks you listed are netdecks (though this may be a matter of opinion as you get closer to the line of what you call a netdeck....Big Rogue for example).
You didn't refute anything. 45% of decks being netdecks in Casual is unacceptably high. Why are you defending the current state? How would your experience be hurt by addressing the issues that myself and a lot of other players have?
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Nothing's wrong.
45% is unacceptably high.
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We're protecting the casual mode itself from being ruined because you haven't convinced us that the changes you're proposing (mostly bans) are in fact positive. Card/deck bans aren't going to bring diversity to casual. In fact, we already have card bans disguised as expansion rotations, which have resulted in the very same netdecks in standard you're trying to remedy. Now look at wild, where there are no card bans and tell me where you see more diversity.
I don't play much casual in standard so I couldn't tell you. I'm not a game designer so it's not on me to find the solutions. It's not up to me to convince you that a change wouldn't be negative. Maybe it would be a bad thing? I don't know? What does it hurt to try? What are you defending that you're afraid of losing in casual if changes happened?
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A Big Rogue listed that is stylized almost exactly like Dane's would be a net deck. However, there are multiple ways to build such a deck that would not fit into such a category. It needs to be kept in mind that every archtype has one or more staples, and just because an archtype intelligently uses those staples that doesn't mean it is a net deck even after changing up other non-essential cards. A Cubelock can't be a Cubelock without including the cube, An Aviana combo can't be an Aviana OTK combo without Aviana, and Big Rogue currently can't be a big deck without a means of cheesing out big things early. The deck classifies as a meme deck still because it does not consistently go toe-to-toe with Odd Rogue, Smorc Shaman, Odd Pally, Reno Lock, Reno Mage, & some druid combos. As much as I love Dane and his deckbuilding Big Rogue still suffers from typical big deck highrolling, which affects its consistency. If your Kobold Illusionists and Barnes are near the bottom of the deck you are much more likely to lose seeing as the deck becomes a Big Priest with no res spells or capability to cheese out copies for 6 mana.
Nice straw man fallacy there. I wasn't debating about the percentages of netdecks vs non-netdecks in casual. I was debating against your claims that 1) meme decks cannot beat tier decks and 2) a deck is not a meme and/or non-netdeck when it changes a substantial number of cards in said deck and/or is not a deck that consistently competes against top tier decks on ladder.
Your points were refuted. It is a fact that RDU did defeat 3 high legend players in a row at rank 1 legend with a randomized Whizbang deck, just like it is a fact that Firebat, Kibler, Thijs, Hysteria, & other streamers frequently defeat top tier decks on ladder and at legend with decks that are memes. From a non-pro player perspective many users on here could immediately provide screenshots or hsreplays of games where they did something similar, including casual play as well. For my other point I could provide decklists for the decks I have mentioned to express that they are memes and not net decks, and I provided explanations for why they do not fit into the category of tier deck or net deck. The latter was a claim you rejected with no rational debate.
I defend the current state because this game released with no arbitrary restrictions on what you could play in casual. I aim to promote the idea that the game remains in the state of being able to simply start the game up, quickly choose any deck that you really enjoy playing and then play it. I oppose the perspective of turning casual mode into a forced HS version of WoW's custom group finder (ie That players are blacklisted from playing certain decks/cards in the format or that they have their queues manipulated into only giving them a certain style of opponent, such as tier decks only face tier deck and dank memes only face dank memes). Your stance runs contrary to this, hence my opposition to your arguments. Pretty simple when you think about it. You want to force players to play a particular way and I don't. Players should have the autonomy to play how they want, in as much as it doesn't infringe on other players being able to make a free choice to make decisions on how they will play.
Salt
Then what constitutes a productive stance on the state of Casual? This isn't a made up statistic. I tracked every game of Casual I played over a two week and 235 game period. If you're going to simply dismiss it lazily with "salt" then you might as well not even post here because it does nothing to contribute.
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Lyra already did it for me.
Lyra's argument was to refute something that wasn't even my main point. It's not that sometimes meme decks can beat netdecks (and yes, I do enjoy the occasional foray into ladder with meme decks to tear up low ranks/floors). It's that netdecks have a dedicated format already, non netdecks do not, and (IMO) 45% of games of casual being netdecks is too high.
edit: Let me ask it again - those of you defending the current state of casual - what are you afraid of if there are changes made? What quality are you clinging to that you don't want to go away?
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This isn't 1998 anymore. We need to stop complaining about netdecking and just accept that it will always happen and there's literally nothing to be done about it.
The answer, such that any exists, is to play with friends.
To accept the problem is to admit the problem exists.
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I didn't say accept a problem, I said accept netdecking.
It's your personal problem. Like I said, nothing is wrong.
If I am alone on this, then I will concede the point.
But I highly doubt I am.
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Argumentum ad populum is a fallacious argument