The counter is the opportunity cost of all those paladin secrets in your deck.
But, I think it's very cool you got to see 5 secrets dumped with him. That's like seeing a falling star. You should be happy.
^ This.
The opportunity cost is quite high in order to get like the max, or just a lot, value from Mysterious Challenger. Playing 5+ secrets means that the deck is sacrificing 5+ card slots for these 1 mana secrets.
I think it is funny when people talk about "watch Trump or Kolento". I mean these are some of the best players in the world of course they will do well with good cards (Challenger is great but I don't think OP). I have watched Many of the top players in the world do well with crazy decks that no one argues are OP (hell Dog hit legend this month with mech druid).
Challenger is a great card but like said before its not OP as it forces you to use below average cards to make it great. Everyone talks about how hard it is to remove all of the secrets but if you don't have a board and the paladin has several minions your already losing anyway and would be in almost as bad of shape if he had played a sylvanis or emperor.
The big draw back like Derivative mentioned is although the secrets are OK if you play them early they certainly don't have the value of most other early game cards (or they would be used on their own) and it can cause you to fall behind. Also since most people run 2 of these it is very likely that the 2nd one will have very little value and playing a 6/6 for 6 is fairly dreadful.
Patron Warrior is very powerful because of the 1 turn KO something this deck doesn't have and it still requires one specific card but without the stall or draw mechanics of Patron. Really it is just another cancer deck with a twist and from what I see playing against it and watching others play it good players will have a +50% win rate and will climb the ladder but you can say that about almost every other cancer deck. I think it will get slightly worse as people actually learn to play around the secrets (something you cant really do against Patron).
This is one of several new decks that could bring back removal such as polymorph. Most decks with removal can play around this well if done correctly and ping classes fair even better.
Yes the card is strong and yes the deck seems good at least for the time being but we don't need to scream OP every time something new comes up that is good.
When I say "watch Trump or Kolento", I don't mean watch them beat up some noobs on ladder. I'm talking about watching them use the deck in a tournament against other good players. So of course, if the deck is dominating other decks played by other great players, then it's clearly incredibly strong.
It's also extremely naive to say "if you don't have a board and the paladin has several minions your already losing anyway and would be in almost as bad of shape if he had played a sylvanis or emperor." Losing on the board vs aggro decks is pretty much the norm. What mysterious challenger does is make it impossible to come back and stabilize which is what control decks aim to do vs aggro. And if you are somewhat even on the board, mysterious challenger puts the paladin way ahead as you lose complete board control and tempo to deal with the secrets for 1 turn.
The deck doesn't need value from a 2nd mysterious challenger because as long as they are ahead or even on the board when they play the 1st one, it straight up wins them the game. The only reason to run 2 is to have it on turn 6 almost guaranteed, not because they actually need to play it twice.
This deck is already tier 1 and dominating the meta and it's not even refined and it's all because of 1 card.
Loetheb is 5/5/5 with fun text and a card widely used. This is a 6/6/6 with pulling out all your secrets at once. Think it's a great card if you have the secrets and aren't just packing in secrets to use the card/.
This is bad design, only one class can counter this card.
and most of ppl that play that class, dont run it because it isnt worth it this days, well i run 1 because of the mages, paladins secrets arent a problem but the mage one are most annoying
Yeah, maybe this was their intention, to make flare more valuable? But really there are way too many cards now where if you play them at the right time, it's game over. They are not just good plays: they make Hearthstone more like Russian Roulette.
Mysterious challenger may be a very strong card, however there are cards that are designed to beat secrets that could be teched in to beat secret decks like flare and mystic.
In a way, Mysterious Challenger buffs these cards to make them more viable, which I think is a positive thing.
This is bad design, only one class can counter this card.
Only one class can HARD counter this card. There are plenty of decks than can soft counter by simply ignoring the Secrets (such as Freeze Mage) or easily dealing with the consequences (like Patron Warrior.)
Agreed, Mysterious Paladin is countered by freeze mage, patron warrior, dragon priest, and can lose to hunter, tempo mage, handlock and a variety of other decks. The deck has good and bad matchups.
In the current meta its simply quite powerful. It hits a sweet spot of aggression with another steam to close the game.
Well...Xixo did lose all 3 games with the Secret Pally deck on Archon Team League, with some bad draws of course, but still. OP would be a consistently dominant deck, any deck can seem OP when drawn correctly.
So this deck at least is still under the mercy of RNG gods.
IMO Patron Warrior is still overall more dominant and consistent.
Mysterious challenger may be a very strong card, however there are cards that are designed to beat secrets that could be teched in to beat secret decks like flare and mystic.
In a way, Mysterious Challenger buffs these cards to make them more viable, which I think is a positive thing.
Mystic is completely and utterly useless against challenger.
This is one of those threads were someone gets mad at a card but doesn't actually think about it's power level or about how it must be evaluated in the context of the cards it synergizes with, the decks it can be played in and what needs to be done in order for a card to work the way you want it to.
Mysterious Challenger is a great card with potentially insane value both in terms of mana cost and pseudo card draw. But you don't seem to see at what cost the card comes. A 6/6 for 6 is pretty horrible and given how many powereful 6 drops we have in the game no one would argue with that.
So the card needs to put at least 2 but more like 3 secrets in play to even be considered remotely close in power level to many of the other 6 drops. So what does that mean for the deck you are running? If you want to run the challenger you need a deck that is consistently able to pull at least 3 secrets with the challenger for it to be good, more if you want it to be really great value.
That obviously requires you to run at least playsets of 3 different secrets, 6 slots in your deck occupied by cards no one would usually consider worth running with Avenge being the only secret that saw a bit of play in the last few months. The Mysterious Challenger comes at the huge cost of needing to build your deck in a subpar fashion in order for it to be good.
Is the card crazy when you actually get to play it and pull 5 secrets? Of course it is. But unlike the Mad Scientist it's slow and secrets especially low cost ones loose value as the game progresses, it's exclusive to paladin which makes it worth in the context of cards and it's a horrible 6 drop if you don't actually pull 3 secrets.
Don't complain about fine cards or at least think about them before you do.
This is probably the best summary for this card.
Additionally, you can play it on turn 6+, unless you somehow get its cost reduced. If you started first, by the turn 6 you already have drawn 9 cards, not counting any possible draw effect in between. If you started second, make it 10 cards. Now, 10 cards is 1/3 of the whole pool, if you're not running ALL THE SECRETS, then most probably some of the Secrets got drawn into your hand, either by turn-draw or mulliganing. If you don't draw Mysterious Challenger by the turn 6, its potential diminishes greatly over the coming turns, because of the chance of drawing more Secrets. If you played Tempo Mage or Face Hunter (ugh) you possibly already know how often Mad Scientist ends just as a 2/2, because the only Secret you run (Explosive Trap and Mirror Entity/Effigy) just happened to find its way to your hand before Mad Scientist is drawn/played/killed.
No, not really. The card almost always has a huge impact when it is played and the early game for secadin tends to be extremely strong.
I have no idea if the deck/card is OP or not, but that particular post clearly tried to obfuscate both the strength of card and the strength of the deck it is usually played in.
What makes this card OP is that only hunters with Flare can counter it, other classes can't do anything. Imo Mysterious Challenger should be a legendary.
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I didn't have a signature so Flux added one for me.
If you don't think this card is OP. Ask yourself, if Paladin had Overload like Shamans, how much Overload would the card have?
Something like "Can't play anything for next 6 ranked games or 12 casual".
Honestly, I don't think that Mysterious Challenger is OP. The problem lies in nonexistance of hard counters. Only Flare counters that shit and it's only one class in not really popular archetype (kinda-control midrange hunter). Kezan Mystic is not even remotely good against challenger.
Yeah a 6/6 for 6 mana with a game winning effect is pretty fucking good if you ask me. Every paladin I've faced in the last 3 days on ladder is running this build and ALWAYS plays mysterious challenger turn 6. QQ
Yeah a 6/6 for 6 mana with a game winning effect is pretty fucking good if you ask me. Every paladin I've faced in the last 3 days on ladder is running this build and ALWAYS plays mysterious challenger turn 6. QQ
How is 5 Trash secrets into the game a winning effekt? Ping face with 1/1, noble proc, noble dies, resurect, avenge on his 6/6 bgh it, he gets to 1 hp, leave noble alive he gets a 3/2 on his turn with 6 cards from his deck wasted...so op.
Wait until a Mage gets one with Unstable portal.... You just Cry....
^ This.
The opportunity cost is quite high in order to get like the max, or just a lot, value from Mysterious Challenger. Playing 5+ secrets means that the deck is sacrificing 5+ card slots for these 1 mana secrets.
Do you play Go/Weiqi/Baduk?
I am 4D
When I say "watch Trump or Kolento", I don't mean watch them beat up some noobs on ladder. I'm talking about watching them use the deck in a tournament against other good players. So of course, if the deck is dominating other decks played by other great players, then it's clearly incredibly strong.
It's also extremely naive to say "if you don't have a board and the paladin has several minions your already losing anyway and would be in almost as bad of shape if he had played a sylvanis or emperor." Losing on the board vs aggro decks is pretty much the norm. What mysterious challenger does is make it impossible to come back and stabilize which is what control decks aim to do vs aggro. And if you are somewhat even on the board, mysterious challenger puts the paladin way ahead as you lose complete board control and tempo to deal with the secrets for 1 turn.
The deck doesn't need value from a 2nd mysterious challenger because as long as they are ahead or even on the board when they play the 1st one, it straight up wins them the game. The only reason to run 2 is to have it on turn 6 almost guaranteed, not because they actually need to play it twice.
This deck is already tier 1 and dominating the meta and it's not even refined and it's all because of 1 card.
Loetheb is 5/5/5 with fun text and a card widely used. This is a 6/6/6 with pulling out all your secrets at once. Think it's a great card if you have the secrets and aren't just packing in secrets to use the card/.
This is bad design, only one class can counter this card.
It's not OP at all...
Yeah, maybe this was their intention, to make flare more valuable? But really there are way too many cards now where if you play them at the right time, it's game over. They are not just good plays: they make Hearthstone more like Russian Roulette.
Mysterious challenger may be a very strong card, however there are cards that are designed to beat secrets that could be teched in to beat secret decks like flare and mystic.
In a way, Mysterious Challenger buffs these cards to make them more viable, which I think is a positive thing.
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Only one class can HARD counter this card. There are plenty of decks than can soft counter by simply ignoring the Secrets (such as Freeze Mage) or easily dealing with the consequences (like Patron Warrior.)
Nope.
Agreed, Mysterious Paladin is countered by freeze mage, patron warrior, dragon priest, and can lose to hunter, tempo mage, handlock and a variety of other decks. The deck has good and bad matchups.
In the current meta its simply quite powerful. It hits a sweet spot of aggression with another steam to close the game.
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Well...Xixo did lose all 3 games with the Secret Pally deck on Archon Team League, with some bad draws of course, but still. OP would be a consistently dominant deck, any deck can seem OP when drawn correctly.
So this deck at least is still under the mercy of RNG gods.
IMO Patron Warrior is still overall more dominant and consistent.
Mystic is completely and utterly useless against challenger.
This is probably the best summary for this card.
Additionally, you can play it on turn 6+, unless you somehow get its cost reduced. If you started first, by the turn 6 you already have drawn 9 cards, not counting any possible draw effect in between. If you started second, make it 10 cards. Now, 10 cards is 1/3 of the whole pool, if you're not running ALL THE SECRETS, then most probably some of the Secrets got drawn into your hand, either by turn-draw or mulliganing. If you don't draw Mysterious Challenger by the turn 6, its potential diminishes greatly over the coming turns, because of the chance of drawing more Secrets. If you played Tempo Mage or Face Hunter (ugh) you possibly already know how often Mad Scientist ends just as a 2/2, because the only Secret you run (Explosive Trap and Mirror Entity/Effigy) just happened to find its way to your hand before Mad Scientist is drawn/played/killed.
No, not really. The card almost always has a huge impact when it is played and the early game for secadin tends to be extremely strong.
I have no idea if the deck/card is OP or not, but that particular post clearly tried to obfuscate both the strength of card and the strength of the deck it is usually played in.
What makes this card OP is that only hunters with Flare can counter it, other classes can't do anything. Imo Mysterious Challenger should be a legendary.
I didn't have a signature so Flux added one for me.
If you don't think this card is OP. Ask yourself, if Paladin had Overload like Shamans, how much Overload would the card have?
Something like "Can't play anything for next 6 ranked games or 12 casual".
Honestly, I don't think that Mysterious Challenger is OP. The problem lies in nonexistance of hard counters. Only Flare counters that shit and it's only one class in not really popular archetype (kinda-control midrange hunter).
Kezan Mystic is not even remotely good against challenger.
Yeah a 6/6 for 6 mana with a game winning effect is pretty fucking good if you ask me. Every paladin I've faced in the last 3 days on ladder is running this build and ALWAYS plays mysterious challenger turn 6. QQ
How is 5 Trash secrets into the game a winning effekt? Ping face with 1/1, noble proc, noble dies, resurect, avenge on his 6/6 bgh it, he gets to 1 hp, leave noble alive he gets a 3/2 on his turn with 6 cards from his deck wasted...so op.
I don't think it's that OP, but it certainly makes things really inconsistent and draw-RNG becomes more important than ever.
So I think it's mostly an annoying card!
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