I don't like "the combo" either but if you nerf it then you'd have to give the Druid class something spectacular to make up for it. You can't butcher Druid's only win condition and not propose a compromise. Anyway, this will not happen anytime soon.
i really doubt druid is in such a dire state. it's among the most played class in the game and probably one of the most versatile.
I think druid is just fine now, it was not very strong in previous patches, now also after patron nerf its popularity is raising and someone who's get rekt more often by combo wants nerf... Yes it's powerful, every druid deck is running two or one combo, but is it so OP? I don't think so... Maybe now the meta is just stabilizing, and next week some new druid crushing decks will came (I hope they don't). But why you wanna nerf something so pure, oldskool and awesome in druid deck, when you know how blizzard is nerfing things?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing since closed beta, completely F2P, S19 Legend.
what a bad argument. its not about doing x amounts of damage thats the issue, theres otk:s in the game that are totally fine that can do unlimited damage. its all about consistency. like are you seriously comparing otk priest to druid combo? that has never been a thing outside of fun decks. you could say freeze mage is very consistent, but that deck revolves and built around cycling through to a combo, fon+sr you just put in every druid deck, and with the built in consistent draw and gameplay it works in basically every druid deck very, very consistent. i would be totally fine with the combo probably if it didnt mean defeat if you leave one creature on board.
As Floodhorse says its not just 14 damage its the extra you get from those one or two minions you can't quite clear e.g with two saplings left it becomes 20 damage in one turn. All other examples are much less likely and don't scale as much either, yes Grommash is horrible but its only one card and can't be used before turn 8. Both Savage roar and Force of Nature can be used earlier.
Like I say the most important thing is the odds off getting it when you have two off each card as opposed to one ( twice as likely) so is twice as effective, but then it stacks with remaining minions so 2/3 times as effective as nearest rivals.
Druid Combo (by itself) is 14 damage for 9 mana that can be stopped by Taunt and leaves nothing on the board afterward. Compare that to:
Alexstrasza deals 15 damage for 9 mana and leaves behind an 8/8 body, AND isn't affected by Taunt.
Mage has double Fireball + Frostbolt, Frostbolt + double Ice Lance + Fireball, etc. that deal 15 (or more) damage for 9-10 mana, which isn't affected by Taunt.
Equality + Consecration can clear any minion in the game from the board, and in mass numbers, for just 6 mana (plus 2 damage to the face).
Savage Roar + Force of Nature defines one class. Alexstrasza defines an entire deck archetype that at LEAST 3 different classes currently make use of. Very few Mage decks without 2x Fireball and 2x Frostbolt, while most also run Archmage Antonidas which is an unlimited supply of Fireball. And while very few Priests actually run the Prophet Velen finisher combo, it still deals as much damage as Druid combo for 1 extra mana, AND isn't affected by taunt.
Maybe we should nerf all of these cards/combos too?
If you want to get technical, Druid Combo is actually the LEAST consistent and situational of all the combos I mentioned. Everything else does its damage regardless of what your board looks like. Druid combo only deals full damage if it deals with all the Taunt minions before you drop it. Otherwise, you have to use a portion of the potential 14+ damage to remove the taunt first, before the rest can go through.
Firebat may have something to say about "OTK Priest never being a thing outside of fun decks." Also, if you read the comment I made that you quoted, you'd have realized I said "..while very few Priests actually run the Prophet Velen finisher combo..."
Do I have a Druid deck? Yes. Does it run two copies of the combo? Yes. Why? Because Druid removal is such junk, I often find myself using one or both pieces of one of the combo sets to help me clear the board if I fall behind.
Now to REALLY blow your mind (brace yourself). I know you may not believe this, but the following statements are actually true:
1) Not every Druid deck runs 2 copies of the combo
2) Some Druids don't run any copies of the combo
3) Some Druids that run two copies win without playing the combo even once during a game
Also: Those other OTKs you mentioned? Not only do they go through Taunt, but they also don't require you to do ANY actual face damage prior to playing them. Try to beat someone with the Druid combo without dealing any face damage beforehand.
Force/Roar does not need to nerfed, unlike grim patron which had no poor match ups for the most part. The force/roar deck is not without its counters so I don't see why it should be done away with .
why do you need to give druid something else then? druid is a class that has _everything_ already. and as far as i know, ramp is pretty "spectacular". its not that they shouldnt be allowed to have burst, its just the burst they have is too good and makes it so theres no point in playing anything else than combo druid.
Everything, except good removal and game-ending legendaries.
Shaman's hero power produces totems, and means it is more likely they can have additional minions on board. Except for token druid which doesn't even run Fotn much of the time, opting for power of the wild instead, druid can't really flood the board. Mech shaman can flood the board easily, and its hero power again produces totem minions.
Shaman needs a ton of help though, it is such an awful class, by far the worst. I wouldn't mind bloodlust adding +3 attack to the shaman, I think blizzard might not have done that, since shaman has weapons. Doomhammer equipped and bloodlust, crazy. However strengthening bloodlust isn't going to be enough, there are severe fundamental problems with the class. Overload just doesn't work out for it.
Well only very rarely does anything in this game ever need to be nerfed. Yet people will always find something to complain about that is true.
However there are certainly many cards and even classes that need to be buffed to have any use yet no one cares.
There are people that care. They're just hard to find, and the problem is, no one really cares about them (those being the Rogue and Shaman mains).
Sure, Rogue has its Oil archetype. Rogue can also Mill like nobody's business (even though it isn't viable in the current meta, and even if it was, is ENTIRELY too unreliable). The problem is, Oil is a combo that requires a LOT of things to go right (opponent not flooding the board, opponent not playing big/sticky minions, Rogue getting a minion that sticks to combo with Tinker's Sharpsword Oil, etc.). It's basically a Control class that has subpar removal and really relies as much on the opponent as it does themselves.
Shaman has Bloodlust, which can be surprising, but most people (after Midrange/Totem Shaman showed up) don't ignore totems like they used to. While Shaman does have some effective removal, both spot and AoE, the problem with the Shaman class is Overload, especially on cards that the Overload value really doesn't make sense on. I won't name them all, but I'll run over a few that don't make sense (and some that do):
Stormforged Axe. The reverse of Fiery War Axe with Overload (1). I can see both sides here. The extra durability given up for the 1 less attack means 3 minions can be removed. That being said, Shaman doesn't have Armor like Warrior does, few people actually run Vitality Totem (though it's nice when Tuksarr Totemic drops one), and your chances of getting the Taunt totem are 1/4 (which doesn't fight for board presence, it just stops 1-2 attacks). You know what's a better version of Stormforged Axe? Coghammer. Sure, it's Epic, and sure, it costs 1 more mana. But think about this: If you drop Stormforged Axe turn 2 and Hero power turn 3? You MAY end up with a 2/3 weapon and a 0/2 Taunt turn 3. If you drop Coghammer on turn 3, the worst you're going to have at that point more than likely is a 2/3 weapon and a 1/1 Taunt with Divine Shield that not only stops 2 attacks, but actually does damage (and that's if you don't drop Coghammer with Shielded Minibot on the field).
Forked Lightning is essentially [/card]Cleave[/card] for one less mana that will VERY rarely be played on turn 1, yet it has Overload (2).
Lavaburst. Deal 5 damage for 3 mana. Overload (2). Compare that to Fireball. Now tell me how many minions there are at the 3 slot that absolutely have to be removed immediately that require 5 damage to be dealt with, and how many games there are that dealing 5 damage to the face on turn 3 is going to really cause panic (outside of aggro, which Shaman doesn't do well with, and even then, dropping a minion would be better) that really warrants Overload (2) if you need it on turn 4 or later rather than turn 3 (which you normally do).
Lightning Storm is Consecration with a slight RNG upside for one less mana. Overload (2). I can kinda see this one, as it's able to stop Aggro before it really gets going in a deck that's pretty much forced to be Midrange, AND has the upside of the potential extra 1 damage for 1 less mana.
Ancestral Knowledge. I can understand this card having Overload, but I'm not sure why it's Overload (2) instead of (1). Let's look at Shaman vs Mage. Shaman plays Ancestral Knowledge turn 2. Mage plays (let's say) Mad Scientist turn 2. Turn 3, Shaman has 1 Mana, which makes his most effective moves (without triggering more Overload) Rockbiter Weapon, Earth Shock, Frost Shock, or dropping a 1 mana neutral minion (we'll say he drops Zombie Chow). Mage turn 3, Arcane Intellect, swing Mad Scientist into Zombie Chow, gain a secret. At this point, who's in control of the tempo?
I think the Overload mechanic either needs to be removed (and the spells adjusted accordingly), or it needs to be re-evaluted and toned down in a lot of instances. If neither of those is done, then there needs to be more cards like Lava Shock released.
Honestly, the issue is charge. Shocking, the same issue as Patron warrior! Seriously though, in a game with only 30 health points, you want to keep instantaneous win conditions to an absolute minimum. More to the point, you want to give players every possible chance to defend against a defeat. I know, I know, at this point you need to stay above 14 health against druid, but that's simply the status quo in a world of poor game design. Ideally, charge should have been as rare as silence: a couple neutral minions and a couple class cards. Charge is in the same category as silence: it's an anti-fun card, it cannot be defended against except with a knowledge of the meta, and it can be used to invalidate players' attempts to plan and to defend themselves. 5-mana: summon 3 2/2s. Done. No charge means there's time to counter this play before savage roar.
And no, it's not necessarily OP, it's just awful design that limits viable druid decks and frustrates the player base. A game that frustrates or annoys customers is not good for anyone, especially the developers.
Face hunters frustrate the playerbase with face damage. Freeze mages frustrate the playerbase with the instant 15 damage, followed by another 15 the next turn. Oil Rogue frustrates the playerbase with blade flurry. Control warrior frustrates the playerbase with tons of armor especially with Justicar. Priest frustrates the playerbase with it's steal abilities. Secret paladin frustrates the playerbase cause of MC.
The point is a lot of the playerbase are low skill whiny bitches who will find something to complain about regardless of what Blizzard does. Cause they will still lose, they will still suck, and they are too fragile mentally to accept they need to improve and need something to blame.
Face hunters frustrate the playerbase with face damage. Freeze mages frustrate the playerbase with the instant 15 damage, followed by another 15 the next turn. Oil Rogue frustrates the playerbase with blade flurry. Control warrior frustrates the playerbase with tons of armor especially with Justicar. Priest frustrates the playerbase with it's steal abilities. Secret paladin frustrates the playerbase cause of MC.
The point is a lot of the playerbase are low skill whiny bitches who will find something to complain about regardless of what Blizzard does. Cause they will still lose, they will still suck, and they are too fragile mentally to accept they need to improve and need something to blame.
Also your idea is terrible.
Please, training-wheels pally is the easiest powerdeck in HS history. Feel free to sit there and discount every complaint towards it as baseless salt, but it doesn't take much of a look to know it's ease of play is real.
When you have trustworthy reports that simple heuristic bots can pilot players from rank 5 to legend with that deck, you have an issue. And yes, I sincerely doubt you can do that with any other deck in HS at the moment without an unrealistic amount of games played (leaked stats suggest MC-pally can attain close to 52% winrate as a heuristics bot, with most other viable decks in the mid-to-low 40s).
(For those unfamiliar with the term, heuristic-based bots play on simplified conditional rules... they don't usually analyse future possibilities, which in a game like HS is an almost insurmountable task for a computer algorithm anyway).
I guess I should also clarify: That a heuristic bot can pilot secret paladin to over 50% winrate is clear and overwhelming proof that the deck has a very simple decision tree. Which means it is far too simple and should not exist in a strategy card game.
Well, considering that Druids can make a total of 28 dmg with only 2 cards that can be implemented twice in the deck, then yes. You also have to clear their board each turn and if you can't deal with their Shade of Naxxramas early on then it's gg. Maybe if they make Savage Roar 4-mana it would be balanced.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
It's already balanced. A lot of people don't seem to understand balance or the druid class and it's strengths and weaknesses.
As far as Secret Paladin I was just making a point. I even suggested that MC was too strong considering it's stats and effect in the other thread. The point was as seen by this forum which is 80% nerf this or that threads, that most people like to complain rather than improve at the game. They also likely look at the strong aspects of their deck/class as 'fine' while the strong aspects of other classes/decks are all OP. Ridiculously hypocritical.
To above poster, I play oil rogue too, and the oil stuff is way more powerful. However I'm sure you think that is perfectly balanced.
It's already balanced. A lot of people don't seem to understand balance or the druid class and it's strengths and weaknesses.
As far as Secret Paladin I was just making a point. I even suggested that MC was too strong considering it's stats and effect in the other thread. The point was as seen by this forum which is 80% nerf this or that threads, that most people like to complain rather than improve at the game. They also likely look at the strong aspects of their deck/class as 'fine' while the strong aspects of other classes/decks are all OP. Ridiculously hypocritical.
To above poster, I play oil rogue too, and the oil stuff is way more powerful. However I'm sure you think that is perfectly balanced.
Who talked about oil rogue? And what oil stuff? You mean the one card that needs an attacking monster in play, while rogue doesn't have the strong minions druid has? Or the 7-mana play a minion and choose what is best for you?
Maybe FoN+SR is balanced but with the rest of the class cards being good and have flexible use, it becomes broken.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
It may not look like much, but if you want the original damage, you now have to have 3 cards instead of 2 in your hand, and you won't be able to Double SR for 22 anymore.
1. Actually it is the people with no braincells that think it is broken. The people who understand the classes and how they are built on strengths and weaknesses, how decks work, they see it as balanced.
2. Giorgsk. Your avatar says Rogue. Oil is some of the most ridiculous shenanigans in the game. With blade flurry, tinker sharp oil, deadly poison, cold blood etc. You can clear a massive opponent board, or any problem creature (sap) and do a ton of face damage. This is often before turn 9 btw. You talk about Rogue not having as good minions, well Druid doesn't have nearly the amount of ways to manipulate the opponent's board state. Classes excel at different things and are weak at different things.
2. Giorgsk. Your avatar says Rogue. Oil is some of the most ridiculous shenanigans in the game. With blade flurry, tinker sharp oil, deadly poison, cold blood etc. You can clear a massive opponent board, or any problem creature (sap) and do a ton of face damage. This is often before turn 9 btw. You talk about Rogue not having as good minions, well Druid doesn't have nearly the amount of ways to manipulate the opponent's board state. Classes excel at different things and are weak at different things.
Well, the thread asks about FoN+SR not blade flurry. And druid does have the best ways to manipulate opponent's board state. After all the expansions druid has also ways to deal with big minions (as was always the case anyway), as well as ways to clear opponent's board effectively.
Srry man (especially after TGT) the stats speak for themselves but if you feel like it I'm with you.#rogueopnerf
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
Sherlock Holmes
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
i really doubt druid is in such a dire state. it's among the most played class in the game and probably one of the most versatile.
Deaths bite Grommash is 18 damage over 2 turns and you dont need to get to turn 9 pls nerf that too
I think druid is just fine now, it was not very strong in previous patches, now also after patron nerf its popularity is raising and someone who's get rekt more often by combo wants nerf... Yes it's powerful, every druid deck is running two or one combo, but is it so OP? I don't think so... Maybe now the meta is just stabilizing, and next week some new druid crushing decks will came (I hope they don't). But why you wanna nerf something so pure, oldskool and awesome in druid deck, when you know how blizzard is nerfing things?
Playing since closed beta, completely F2P, S19 Legend.
Yup druid has everything. Excellent removal and board clears. Yup.
If you want to get technical, Druid Combo is actually the LEAST consistent and situational of all the combos I mentioned. Everything else does its damage regardless of what your board looks like. Druid combo only deals full damage if it deals with all the Taunt minions before you drop it. Otherwise, you have to use a portion of the potential 14+ damage to remove the taunt first, before the rest can go through.
Firebat may have something to say about "OTK Priest never being a thing outside of fun decks." Also, if you read the comment I made that you quoted, you'd have realized I said "..while very few Priests actually run the Prophet Velen finisher combo..."
Do I have a Druid deck? Yes. Does it run two copies of the combo? Yes. Why? Because Druid removal is such junk, I often find myself using one or both pieces of one of the combo sets to help me clear the board if I fall behind.
Now to REALLY blow your mind (brace yourself). I know you may not believe this, but the following statements are actually true:
1) Not every Druid deck runs 2 copies of the combo
2) Some Druids don't run any copies of the combo
3) Some Druids that run two copies win without playing the combo even once during a game
Also: Those other OTKs you mentioned? Not only do they go through Taunt, but they also don't require you to do ANY actual face damage prior to playing them. Try to beat someone with the Druid combo without dealing any face damage beforehand.
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you.
Force/Roar does not need to nerfed, unlike grim patron which had no poor match ups for the most part. The force/roar deck is not without its counters so I don't see why it should be done away with .
Everything, except good removal and game-ending legendaries.
Shaman's hero power produces totems, and means it is more likely they can have additional minions on board. Except for token druid which doesn't even run Fotn much of the time, opting for power of the wild instead, druid can't really flood the board. Mech shaman can flood the board easily, and its hero power again produces totem minions.
Shaman needs a ton of help though, it is such an awful class, by far the worst. I wouldn't mind bloodlust adding +3 attack to the shaman, I think blizzard might not have done that, since shaman has weapons. Doomhammer equipped and bloodlust, crazy. However strengthening bloodlust isn't going to be enough, there are severe fundamental problems with the class. Overload just doesn't work out for it.
Well only very rarely does anything in this game ever need to be nerfed. Yet people will always find something to complain about that is true.
However there are certainly many cards and even classes that need to be buffed to have any use yet no one cares.
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you.
Honestly, the issue is charge. Shocking, the same issue as Patron warrior! Seriously though, in a game with only 30 health points, you want to keep instantaneous win conditions to an absolute minimum. More to the point, you want to give players every possible chance to defend against a defeat. I know, I know, at this point you need to stay above 14 health against druid, but that's simply the status quo in a world of poor game design. Ideally, charge should have been as rare as silence: a couple neutral minions and a couple class cards. Charge is in the same category as silence: it's an anti-fun card, it cannot be defended against except with a knowledge of the meta, and it can be used to invalidate players' attempts to plan and to defend themselves. 5-mana: summon 3 2/2s. Done. No charge means there's time to counter this play before savage roar.
And no, it's not necessarily OP, it's just awful design that limits viable druid decks and frustrates the player base. A game that frustrates or annoys customers is not good for anyone, especially the developers.
Face hunters frustrate the playerbase with face damage. Freeze mages frustrate the playerbase with the instant 15 damage, followed by another 15 the next turn. Oil Rogue frustrates the playerbase with blade flurry. Control warrior frustrates the playerbase with tons of armor especially with Justicar. Priest frustrates the playerbase with it's steal abilities. Secret paladin frustrates the playerbase cause of MC.
The point is a lot of the playerbase are low skill whiny bitches who will find something to complain about regardless of what Blizzard does. Cause they will still lose, they will still suck, and they are too fragile mentally to accept they need to improve and need something to blame.
Also your idea is terrible.
Well, considering that Druids can make a total of 28 dmg with only 2 cards that can be implemented twice in the deck, then yes. You also have to clear their board each turn and if you can't deal with their Shade of Naxxramas early on then it's gg. Maybe if they make Savage Roar 4-mana it would be balanced.
'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
Sherlock Holmes
It's already balanced. A lot of people don't seem to understand balance or the druid class and it's strengths and weaknesses.
As far as Secret Paladin I was just making a point. I even suggested that MC was too strong considering it's stats and effect in the other thread. The point was as seen by this forum which is 80% nerf this or that threads, that most people like to complain rather than improve at the game. They also likely look at the strong aspects of their deck/class as 'fine' while the strong aspects of other classes/decks are all OP. Ridiculously hypocritical.
To above poster, I play oil rogue too, and the oil stuff is way more powerful. However I'm sure you think that is perfectly balanced.
'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
Sherlock Holmes
It may not look like much, but if you want the original damage, you now have to have 3 cards instead of 2 in your hand, and you won't be able to Double SR for 22 anymore.
Anyone with even the smallest amount of braincells can see that its undeniably broken. It needs to be fixed.
1. Actually it is the people with no braincells that think it is broken. The people who understand the classes and how they are built on strengths and weaknesses, how decks work, they see it as balanced.
2. Giorgsk. Your avatar says Rogue. Oil is some of the most ridiculous shenanigans in the game. With blade flurry, tinker sharp oil, deadly poison, cold blood etc. You can clear a massive opponent board, or any problem creature (sap) and do a ton of face damage. This is often before turn 9 btw. You talk about Rogue not having as good minions, well Druid doesn't have nearly the amount of ways to manipulate the opponent's board state. Classes excel at different things and are weak at different things.
'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
Sherlock Holmes