Without equlity control decks are crap!! Forget control, let's say you play aggro, only shitty aggro cards have been printed recently while odd rogue and even shaman gets nice cheap value and control cards which is unfair isn't it?
Aggro decks should not have so much of control.
Only decks that are good for pally in wild are odd and mech which die to devolve, dark iron skulker. And on top odd rogue's just outvalue these decks with bloodsail flybooter , Pharaoh cat, swasburglar and vilespine.
Shirvallah otk is already a good control deck. So equality doesnt actually matter as much. Also mech paladin is good for zoo as well. I dont think Paladin is in a bad place overall
Aggro decks like even shaman should not have such powerful control tools like devolve. The only way paladin can win tempo with other aggro decks is by trading and it should be the same for shaman too. Don't just devolve and trade!!!!! Noob shamanstone.
Shirvallah otk is already a good control deck. So equality doesnt actually matter as much. Also mech paladin is good for zoo as well. I dont think Paladin is in a bad place overall
Even these decks are risky, 6 Mana pyro eaqulity and 4 Mana pyro equality there's huge difference. Two turns can cost you the enitre game.
If youre willing to compromise Thuzad I'll make it come back as 3 mana.
If equlity costs 2 Mana then the devolved minions can make a fair trade with his Giants and set tempo quickly. 3 Mana or 4 Mana is just too costly to set up your board again isn't it?
It will never happen. Equality is from the classic set and Blizzard wants to keep all Classic cards in borderline unplayable trash territory, so that they can print better versions of those cards in future expansions, because those eventually rotate out and they can sell them again and again in next expansions. Equality being good ruins that plan.
Shirvallah otk is already a good control deck. So equality doesnt actually matter as much. Also mech paladin is good for zoo as well. I dont think Paladin is in a bad place overall
Even these decks are risky, 6 Mana pyro eaqulity and 4 Mana pyro equality there's huge difference. Two turns can cost you the enitre game.
Why should Paladin have the only 4 mana board clear?
Shirvallah otk is already a good control deck. So equality doesnt actually matter as much. Also mech paladin is good for zoo as well. I dont think Paladin is in a bad place overall
Even these decks are risky, 6 Mana pyro eaqulity and 4 Mana pyro equality there's huge difference. Two turns can cost you the enitre game.
Why should Paladin have the only 4 mana board clear?
Because it's the only direct low cost removal available to pally. Poor guy doesn't have any powerful infinite value tools also, once opponent clears your board only option left is concede. Whereas for other classes they got infinite value generation from resurrects, lackeys and hero powers.
Whatever resources you have u gotta finish the game while for others they can summon the board again and again. So low cost removal and setting up board quickly is the only option for pally.
Shirvallah otk is already a good control deck. So equality doesnt actually matter as much. Also mech paladin is good for zoo as well. I dont think Paladin is in a bad place overall
Even these decks are risky, 6 Mana pyro eaqulity and 4 Mana pyro equality there's huge difference. Two turns can cost you the enitre game.
I like it better at 4. Makes shirvallah 4 mana cheaper instead of 2. Can also cost/ win you the game. No joke.
It's good at 2 while you're facing aggro decks and against control decks, when they summon big minions you can just call to arms (pyro being recruited)-eaquality(originally costing 7 Mana 5+2). And also call to arms assists in lowering shirvallah's cost, so it's obviously better at two.
Equality was a busted card. I think the possible reason behind the nerf sucked but I don't like someone nuking my board for 4, or nuking my board for 6, dealing 2 damage, and he retains his board. I played that pally even deck after the call to arms nerf and it was obscene, especially since you could conceivably partner equality with avenging wrath.
Equality was a busted card. I think the possible reason behind the nerf sucked but I don't like someone nuking my board for 4, or nuking my board for 6, dealing 2 damage, and he retains his board. I played that pally even deck after the call to arms nerf and it was obscene, especially since you could conceivably partner equality with avenging wrath.
Don't you think bringing it back to 2 mana will attract a player to play more of a control type pally deck and less of a devastating mech paladin in wild thereby reducing salty posts?
Equality was a busted card. I think the possible reason behind the nerf sucked but I don't like someone nuking my board for 4, or nuking my board for 6, dealing 2 damage, and he retains his board. I played that pally even deck after the call to arms nerf and it was obscene, especially since you could conceivably partner equality with avenging wrath.
Don't you think bringing it back to 2 mana will attract a player to play more of a control type pally deck and less of a devastating mech paladin in wild thereby reducing salty posts?
I'm not looking at it from a wild perspective, and I don't necessarily believe Paladin should inherently have a control deck. I've only been playing from frozen throne but I've never seen Paladin as a control class, more of an aggro, midrange or combo class. Obviously combo is sort of control, but Paladin decks that do that have always seemed to have an absolute finisher, and don't care about grinding out a win. Fair midrange is pretty much dead as a concept.
On people switching from mech Paladin - if the deck is very powerful, only people who love Paladin and are starved for options will switch. I would guess the majority of people are playing it play to win, and they play decks - not classes.
I liked Equality at 2 mana and at least 1 copy probably went into every Paladin deck I ever made since it's really strong. The nerf to 4 mana certainly put a stop to that and is for the best. While it sucks that odd and even mechanics had to be strongly considered while making this nerf, no basic/classic card should be so strong that's inclusion into a class deck is automatic.
I doubt buffing wild decks is ever a consideration when designing new cards either. You'll just have to wait patiently for new cards that fit into w/e decks you like to play. I personally don't see a problem with Paladin not having a strong control option in wild or with Shaman and Rogue having better aggro decks. There are 9 different classes and if they are all capable of the exact same stuff then what's the point of having 9 to begin with?
Bit of a necro here (a week ago) but some of these opinions are really flawed.
1. Shirvallah OTK is a good control deck.
It's not been a good deck in the latest expansion. I don't play anymore because I got tired of the forced minion swarm after minion swarm that Blizz have been pushing for Pala nonstop, but I check Vicious Syndicate every week, I also watch a few HS streamers that are pro and play in Legend. Not seen a Paladin deck. If they do appear, they're mostly Mech Pala.
Second point, and more importantly, Shirvallah OTK imo isn't a control deck, which has value threats in the late game that must be answered. It's more of a straight combo deck, a la Freeze Mage or Worgen OTK. It has no threats whatsoever in its entire decklist, everything is just working towards its endgame combo.
2. "Why should Paladin have the only 4 mana board clear? It is unfair!" (And related comparisons to other cards)
First of all, you should know that you cannot directly compare cards between classes. Why then does Warrior have permanent (in the context of cards like Naturalize or Sap, which are temporary removal) single target removal for 2 mana when every other class that has hard removal has it for 4? I believe this also answers the commenter who compared it to Hunter's Mark, which by the way is laughable - comparing it to Hunter of all classes - Hunter has Veranus, which is a vanilla statted minion that casts Equality on only the opposing minions, which is just stupid. Hunter's Mark also is targeted, not AoE - by which I should point out that Hunter's Mark hits only the minion you wanted it to hit, Equality hits every minion on the board, which includes your own, which makes it worse in some respects than Hunter's Mark, considering you can't just throw it out on something and continue to build a board. You have to commit to the board wipe fully, reset the entire board, and rebuild your own board.
Second, for the person who said you retain your board - this is just flat out incorrect. By the terms of the card(set the health of all minions to 1), you either wipe (if you are using the Wild Pyro+Equality combo) or at least weaken (If you Equality+Consecration) your board, making it easier for your opponent to clear your board as well. So no, you don't retain your board, unless your board was full of 1 health minions in the first place, in which case, the opponent should have no problem clearing your board anyway, with any kind of ping effect, or any Rush minions etc.
Lastly, you forgot to mention that this "board wipe" is also pretty limited - by divine shields, by aura effects, by the fact that it requires two cards combo'd together, not a single card, thus making it lack consistency (my biggest gripe with the card), which, considering it's the only board clear that Paladin has (because let's face it, two damage these days isn't even sufficient to clear aggro deck boards most of the time) is annoying as hell (you should try looking at opposing boards with no Consecrate and two copies of Equality. Seriously, it's frustrating as hell.).
3. Paladin is not a control class.
Incorrect. I've been playing since before TGT, and Midrange Paladin was the go-to back in the day. However, back then the border between control and midrange was a lot more blurry, because you didn't have as many late game catds and powerful cards available for anyone. So in those days, even Control Warrior ran stuff like Dr. Boom, Sylvanas, Ragnaros, Baron Geddon, Deathwing, in addition to the Alex/Grom combo. In those days Paladin ran a midrange list, but was pretty top heavy as well, running Tirion, Dr. Boom, Rag, Sylvanas, Lay on Hands. And as a matter of fact, Paladin was always the "getting small incremental advantages and slowly snowballing them" class back then. Control fits well here, grinding out advantages little by little. For the same reason I absolutely despise Combo decks when playing Paladin, but Blizz seem happy to push it for whatever reason that escapes me.
During the Old Gods expansion there was a brief moment where N'Zoth Heal Control Paladin also came a meta deck for a while.
Personally the class I find most ahistorical right now is Hunter, who has recently had a bunch of really good control cards and late game value cards despite never really having had those tools in the past. That's not to say Hunter can't be a control class, simply that "it's not been a control class before," even if it were correct (which it is not), isn't even a valid argument.
4. Basic/Classic cards shouldn't be an automatic include.
They wouldn't be, if Blizz actually printed good removal and board clear for the class. Unfortunately Blizz haven't even really tried to print good board clear for Paladin. They print gimmicky shit that would never see play in just about any class. They printed "Worse Brawl that costs 1 more mana" and "more expensive Equality that casts Humility but what the hell does that matter if you're gonna cast Consecration in the same turn" and....that's about it.
How can we play paladin without equlity?
Without equlity control decks are crap!! Forget control, let's say you play aggro, only shitty aggro cards have been printed recently while odd rogue and even shaman gets nice cheap value and control cards which is unfair isn't it?
Aggro decks should not have so much of control.
Only decks that are good for pally in wild are odd and mech which die to devolve, dark iron skulker. And on top odd rogue's just outvalue these decks with bloodsail flybooter , Pharaoh cat, swasburglar and vilespine.
This is ridiculous. Pally is dead!!!! :(
Shirvallah otk is already a good control deck. So equality doesnt actually matter as much. Also mech paladin is good for zoo as well. I dont think Paladin is in a bad place overall
Aggro decks like even shaman should not have such powerful control tools like devolve. The only way paladin can win tempo with other aggro decks is by trading and it should be the same for shaman too. Don't just devolve and trade!!!!! Noob shamanstone.
Even these decks are risky, 6 Mana pyro eaqulity and 4 Mana pyro equality there's huge difference. Two turns can cost you the enitre game.
If youre willing to compromise Thuzad I'll make it come back as 3 mana.
If equlity costs 2 Mana then the devolved minions can make a fair trade with his Giants and set tempo quickly. 3 Mana or 4 Mana is just too costly to set up your board again isn't it?
All pally lovers spread this thread elsewhere so that we can get equality to 2 Mana!!!!
It will never happen. Equality is from the classic set and Blizzard wants to keep all Classic cards in borderline unplayable trash territory, so that they can print better versions of those cards in future expansions, because those eventually rotate out and they can sell them again and again in next expansions. Equality being good ruins that plan.
Why should Paladin have the only 4 mana board clear?
Because it's the only direct low cost removal available to pally. Poor guy doesn't have any powerful infinite value tools also, once opponent clears your board only option left is concede. Whereas for other classes they got infinite value generation from resurrects, lackeys and hero powers.
Whatever resources you have u gotta finish the game while for others they can summon the board again and again. So low cost removal and setting up board quickly is the only option for pally.
I like it better at 4. Makes shirvallah 4 mana cheaper instead of 2. Can also cost/ win you the game. No joke.
It's good at 2 while you're facing aggro decks and against control decks, when they summon big minions you can just call to arms (pyro being recruited)-eaquality(originally costing 7 Mana 5+2). And also call to arms assists in lowering shirvallah's cost, so it's obviously better at two.
Equality was unfair in the first place tho. Hunters Mark costs two and is a single-target spell. 3 mana is maybe okay.
Equality was a busted card. I think the possible reason behind the nerf sucked but I don't like someone nuking my board for 4, or nuking my board for 6, dealing 2 damage, and he retains his board. I played that pally even deck after the call to arms nerf and it was obscene, especially since you could conceivably partner equality with avenging wrath.
Don't you think bringing it back to 2 mana will attract a player to play more of a control type pally deck and less of a devastating mech paladin in wild thereby reducing salty posts?
I'm not looking at it from a wild perspective, and I don't necessarily believe Paladin should inherently have a control deck. I've only been playing from frozen throne but I've never seen Paladin as a control class, more of an aggro, midrange or combo class. Obviously combo is sort of control, but Paladin decks that do that have always seemed to have an absolute finisher, and don't care about grinding out a win. Fair midrange is pretty much dead as a concept.
On people switching from mech Paladin - if the deck is very powerful, only people who love Paladin and are starved for options will switch. I would guess the majority of people are playing it play to win, and they play decks - not classes.
I liked Equality at 2 mana and at least 1 copy probably went into every Paladin deck I ever made since it's really strong. The nerf to 4 mana certainly put a stop to that and is for the best. While it sucks that odd and even mechanics had to be strongly considered while making this nerf, no basic/classic card should be so strong that's inclusion into a class deck is automatic.
I doubt buffing wild decks is ever a consideration when designing new cards either. You'll just have to wait patiently for new cards that fit into w/e decks you like to play. I personally don't see a problem with Paladin not having a strong control option in wild or with Shaman and Rogue having better aggro decks. There are 9 different classes and if they are all capable of the exact same stuff then what's the point of having 9 to begin with?
And on top odd rogue's just outvalue these decks with bloodsail flybooter.
Bit of a necro here (a week ago) but some of these opinions are really flawed.
1. Shirvallah OTK is a good control deck.
It's not been a good deck in the latest expansion. I don't play anymore because I got tired of the forced minion swarm after minion swarm that Blizz have been pushing for Pala nonstop, but I check Vicious Syndicate every week, I also watch a few HS streamers that are pro and play in Legend. Not seen a Paladin deck. If they do appear, they're mostly Mech Pala.
Second point, and more importantly, Shirvallah OTK imo isn't a control deck, which has value threats in the late game that must be answered. It's more of a straight combo deck, a la Freeze Mage or Worgen OTK. It has no threats whatsoever in its entire decklist, everything is just working towards its endgame combo.
2. "Why should Paladin have the only 4 mana board clear? It is unfair!" (And related comparisons to other cards)
First of all, you should know that you cannot directly compare cards between classes. Why then does Warrior have permanent (in the context of cards like Naturalize or Sap, which are temporary removal) single target removal for 2 mana when every other class that has hard removal has it for 4? I believe this also answers the commenter who compared it to Hunter's Mark, which by the way is laughable - comparing it to Hunter of all classes - Hunter has Veranus, which is a vanilla statted minion that casts Equality on only the opposing minions, which is just stupid. Hunter's Mark also is targeted, not AoE - by which I should point out that Hunter's Mark hits only the minion you wanted it to hit, Equality hits every minion on the board, which includes your own, which makes it worse in some respects than Hunter's Mark, considering you can't just throw it out on something and continue to build a board. You have to commit to the board wipe fully, reset the entire board, and rebuild your own board.
Second, for the person who said you retain your board - this is just flat out incorrect. By the terms of the card(set the health of all minions to 1), you either wipe (if you are using the Wild Pyro+Equality combo) or at least weaken (If you Equality+Consecration) your board, making it easier for your opponent to clear your board as well. So no, you don't retain your board, unless your board was full of 1 health minions in the first place, in which case, the opponent should have no problem clearing your board anyway, with any kind of ping effect, or any Rush minions etc.
Lastly, you forgot to mention that this "board wipe" is also pretty limited - by divine shields, by aura effects, by the fact that it requires two cards combo'd together, not a single card, thus making it lack consistency (my biggest gripe with the card), which, considering it's the only board clear that Paladin has (because let's face it, two damage these days isn't even sufficient to clear aggro deck boards most of the time) is annoying as hell (you should try looking at opposing boards with no Consecrate and two copies of Equality. Seriously, it's frustrating as hell.).
3. Paladin is not a control class.
Incorrect. I've been playing since before TGT, and Midrange Paladin was the go-to back in the day. However, back then the border between control and midrange was a lot more blurry, because you didn't have as many late game catds and powerful cards available for anyone. So in those days, even Control Warrior ran stuff like Dr. Boom, Sylvanas, Ragnaros, Baron Geddon, Deathwing, in addition to the Alex/Grom combo. In those days Paladin ran a midrange list, but was pretty top heavy as well, running Tirion, Dr. Boom, Rag, Sylvanas, Lay on Hands. And as a matter of fact, Paladin was always the "getting small incremental advantages and slowly snowballing them" class back then. Control fits well here, grinding out advantages little by little. For the same reason I absolutely despise Combo decks when playing Paladin, but Blizz seem happy to push it for whatever reason that escapes me.
During the Old Gods expansion there was a brief moment where N'Zoth Heal Control Paladin also came a meta deck for a while.
Personally the class I find most ahistorical right now is Hunter, who has recently had a bunch of really good control cards and late game value cards despite never really having had those tools in the past. That's not to say Hunter can't be a control class, simply that "it's not been a control class before," even if it were correct (which it is not), isn't even a valid argument.
4. Basic/Classic cards shouldn't be an automatic include.
They wouldn't be, if Blizz actually printed good removal and board clear for the class. Unfortunately Blizz haven't even really tried to print good board clear for Paladin. They print gimmicky shit that would never see play in just about any class. They printed "Worse Brawl that costs 1 more mana" and "more expensive Equality that casts Humility but what the hell does that matter if you're gonna cast Consecration in the same turn" and....that's about it.