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    posted a message on The Deathrattle Paladin conundrum (and other archtypes)

    There's no one true Paladin deck archetype. Aggro is a mainstay, has been since launch (Divine Shield swarm decks have been around for a long time and cards like the now HoF'd Divine Favour are evidence of that).

    Midrange has also been around for a long time and historically probably the most common and most successful. Secret Paladin was the most successful example of that, but the more iconic one was probably the version that ran midrange minions (Sylvanas, Tirion, Boom, Piloted Shredder) along with things like Quartermaster.

    Combo has also sometimes cropped up in the class. Anyfin, DK Uther OTK and the current Holy Wrath OTK decks are an example. That said due to extremely limited direct damage in the class this is probably the most foreign one.

    Control? Also not really alien. We had one decent attempt at it during N'Zoth but cards that heal are a hint that control is an archetype Paladin could play, going for the long game rather than going for tempo. Lay on Hands is a great example (albeit dated). Also I would argue that in those days any kind of slow midrange deck effectively was classified as control at the time, since the consistent value generation you see in some of the DKs and the hero cards like Dr. Boom, Mad Genius simply did not exist and so you ended up striking a balance on the question of "how much kate game stuff can I cram into my deck without dying to aggro?" - Control Warrior ended up running things like Dr. Boom, the Alex/Grom combo, Sylvanas, Geddon, Rag, etc - by today's standards this would be a slow midrange deck.

    Unfortunately Blizz will never release this archetype for Paladin anymore because of their fixation on minion swarming and secrets as "part of the class identity." They never give Paladin the removal nor the consistent late game value cards, the resource generation(this is a big one, card generation being awful when you're forced to run two cards for one boardclear meaning you fundamentally don't have as much resources as other classes do is awful), necessary for Control to work. 

    Posted in: Paladin
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    posted a message on New Paladin Legendary Card- Sir Finley of the Sands

    Whatever the deck archetype is you need to build a singleton deck for this to see play, don't think we have the cardpool in Standard right now for viable Control or Aggro decks for Paladin right now. Control probably does not want the added risk of an RNG hero power it has no idea how to work with. With aggro while it's feasible in principle I'm skeptical that the cardpool is there - you'd just be building a worse Zoo at that point as far as I can imagine and the deck needs to hold its own without drawing Finley. You can have successful singleton decks (I played a Reno/DK Guldan Demon Zoo deck back in the day) but they need a big cardpool of synergistic cards.

    Posted in: Card Discussion
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    posted a message on New Paladin Card - Micro Mummy
     
    Quote from SparkyFlame >>

    I like this card and you know what I think that many are underestimating it as this will also add reborn to any magnetised minion 

    everybody crying for the quest failing to understand that this was designed for the mech archetype and is a very powerful addition as mech pala is already a solid deck

    cute design and a hell of a sleeper 

     Reborn doesn't retain magnetized, there is no reason to think so. Unless it specifically says that the card retains enchantments after dying. When this dies with something magnetized to it, this card will just be Reborn as a 1/1.

    Overall it is an okay card but nothing spectacular. Might see experimentation in mech aggro decks or flood decks.

    Posted in: Card Discussion
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    posted a message on New Warlock Card - Diseased Vulture

    Compared to Vex Crow or Violet Teacher this is more powerful (stats and effect) and easier to activate in return for a slight downside, but Zoolock wants to start tapping when they start running dry anyway. Zoo will love this. Control Warlock has better things to do than summon a random 3 drop.

    Posted in: Card Discussion
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    posted a message on New Epic Paladin Spell - Tip the Scales

    I actually agree with Jonesy - it's confusing.

    Keep in mind I'm probably biased because my line of thought whenever I see a Murloc in Paladin is GET THE MURLOCS AWAY FROM MY PALADIN BLIZZARD ever since Blizz started actually pushing Murlocs in Paladin.

    And okay, they could actually push out a few more Murloc cards and that "could" make this good because obviously in an ideal world, and leaving aside my hatred of Murlocs in Paladin with gritted teeth, the card is very obviously insane. 8 mana for Recruit 7 cards. Assuming the average Murloc is about 2 mana's worth you break even if you pull 4. If you're actually going to put this in your deck you're going to put quite a few Murlocs in there, it'll probably pull 6+ Murlocs reliably, I'd reckon, at least the first time you play it. Obviously there are problems like the complete lack of midgame options that are Murloc, meaning it is pretty draw reliant (e.g. if you end up drawing a bunch of low value Murlocs in the midgame, could fall behind too quickly, and coming back from a losing board is one thing Paladin traditionally struggles at due to bad removal options).

    So far though whether it'll actually be a thing is an unknown quantity. I can think of two Murloc cards they've printed so far that could be used in Paladin - Fishflinger and (new) Finley (edit: forgot about Murmy); both of them are okay cards in a vacuum, Fishflinger is kinda eh and Finley...is not really something you want to put in a deck that runs this card, I'd imagine, since I doubt there are enough (good) Murlocs in Standard to make this card work.

    The second option people have been speculating is running a bunch of Murlocs, this, and then trying to activate the Shirvallah Holy Wrath combo.  Personally I doubt that works, because you're putting a bunch of very low value (even the good Murlocs) cards in a deck and hoping a little too much to luck into Tip the Scales on 8 - in other words, Yes Paladin would have been consistent if this worked; difference between this and CtA lies in the fact that Paladin combo/control decks that ran CtA in the past ran it with a bunch of defensive minions - Doomsayers, 1/1 Divine Shield Taunts, you could stretch it and say Wild Pyro was defensive if you're thinking about Equality/Shrink Ray combos and that allowed you to stall out the game or get ahead on tempo whereas with this...when's the last time you've seen a Murloc that has Taunt? Never, so far as I know. Now they "could" break that trend, go crazy and start printing Murlocs with Taunt and Divine Shield or Murlocs that passively damage your opponents' non-Murloc minions or something, but I doubt it. And if you don't have to defend and can reliably out-tempo opposing decks with this single card and stuffing a bunch of Murlocs in your deck then I don't really see why you'd actually be using the OTK in the first place because you'd be a more successful deck without the OTK components then.

    That aside, can I just say how the cards printed by Blizzard have been all over the place for Paladin for a good while now? The themes they push for Pala are really kinda bad imo.

    Posted in: Card Discussion
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    posted a message on Why didn't rexxar got nerfed

    Because if you think Blizz balances around Wild I have a bridge to sell you. They've historically not shown much interest in that to back that claim up. Plus they touched 3 decks and 1 class archetype which have been strong or limiting in Standard for the last 1~2 years? That's why.

    Posted in: Card Discussion
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    posted a message on The December 2018 Nerfs Discussion Thread

    Those were good nerfs. I'm surprised people are flipping from "good nerfs" to "Blizz are greedy assholes."(which to be fair they are, but independently of these nerfs)

    People talk about synergy cards and nerf by proxy and how X card should get refunded for the synergy nerf as well, but that will just be so many cards to refund when you go along that line and it's totally unrealistic.

    On the Grumble vs Chain Gang discussion - perhaps the nerf to Chain Gang was intended as a way of indirectly nerfing Keleseth a little while hitting Shudder? Keleseth has been in every tempo deck since it has been discovered. Removing Chain Gang would be a slight hit to its power as Chain Gang was very powerful as it doubled up on the buffs.

     On Fungalmancer - I don't really see why that card is nerf-worthy.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on Ben's Rastakhan Review

    If we go by the approach some people take in which card reviews are done on potential there is almost no card that we could definitively say is bad unless they are strictly inferior. It's a useless way to rate cards. Like Gurubashi Chicken could conceivably be good with some kind of support card, say. Like some buff that buffs health by 3 and gives it "heals back to full every turn," say, perhaps with an additional buff applying only to 1 attack minions. It becomes a useless stream of "what if this support card was printed in the next few expansions?" 

    No one knows what the hell Blizz is going to print; that's why that kind of speculative card review is in my opinion not helpful. There's literally 0 proof that Blizz are going to do ANYTHING to help ANY card. 

    The "potential" argument only imo holds any water if all people are trying to do is jam it into existing decks without theorycrafting new decks, because that is how you disregard possible new decks. Ben obviously has, because he seems to believe Control Paladin "will be a thing," while Control Paladin is practically nonexistent in terms of the Constructed meta rn. So no, that criticism isn't right there either.

    That over on on that related point, I'm curious why Ben thinks Control Paladin is going to be viable. I see no reason to suggest it will be.

    Posted in: Card Discussion
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    posted a message on Paladin current state (Rastakhan ofc)

    For the next expansion, no. It's gonna be the same old tempo based decks. As far as Pally goes, it just does not have anything to contest the kind of late game value that FLJ or DK Rexxar or BR Guldan or Hadronox can bring. Heal Paladin still lacks that. It's basically Odd Warrior - without Omega Assembly and without Dr Boom. Perhaps worse, because Odd Warrior at least does have Shield Slam, a reliable single target removal. This is why I expect Healadin to be midrangey, although I don't think it will muscle out Even decks. IF it sees play, it will be a few cards in Even Pally.

    Even after the DKs rotate out, that actually weakens our current late game plans right now, since the DK was a decent late game removal card if nothing else(also kills off OTK Pally, which was a joke), and Lynessa/Galvadon are gone, plus Tarim. And yes other classes are weakened too, but Warrior still has Boom and Shaman still has Hagatha and it may not be feasible to go up against them.

    Posted in: Paladin
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    posted a message on New Paladin Minion - Zandalari Templar

    Hmm, I thought I'd said this here already, but apparently not. Here goes.

    So people are rating this card on the basis of this being a 4 mana 8/8 Taunt, which it asolutely can be. However, even with Thekal and Crystallizers, I have issues with this card. It is obviously a decent card. By no means can you call it an actively bad card. I just think you can't call it a 4 mana 8/8 and leave it there; it has a condition which will certainly be met over the course of the game, on average. The issue is when that condition is met. If it isn't met early enough it doesn't do enough to pressure other decks like Mountain Giants and Twilight Drakes do for Evenlock. If tossed out late, it becomes dubious as to what the merits of the card are; unless you can chain a constant swing of tempo cards (which you can't if you run this card since you need to put a decent amount of healing in there to get this to activate and most healing is not good tempo) big piles of stats that don't much more than big piles of stats don't often see inclusion in decks that tend to look late game. The reason Evenlock includes those is because it knows it can consistently cheat them out in early turns. This can't. It would take realistically t6~7ish at the earliest before you could drop this. That's not very early.

    Posted in: Card Discussion
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    posted a message on New Paladin Minion - Immortal Prelate

    Also for people that are talking about Cube - I would bet real money that Cube would shuffle 1 buffed Prelate into your deck, but that the revived Prelates that pop out when you pop Cube would not keep any enchantments (consistent with how Cube works with other minions). Cube combos will not work.

    Posted in: Card Discussion
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    posted a message on New Neutral Legendary - Griftah

    I mean sure sometimes what you get from this vs what your opponent needs could be different, but I very much doubt that it's radically different enough that it would be useless for your opponent. Any kind of burst damage can also be removal. A taunt to protect your face can protect their minions from being traded into. A heal can allow value trades if nothing else. I'd say the best you could do is play this as an aggro deck and pick a 1 mana creature like Argent Squire vs control; that's the extent of it. I'm not that sure that sees play. 

    Posted in: Card Discussion
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    posted a message on New Paladin Weapon - Farraki Battleaxe

    Ah now this is more the power level of the Paladin cards I'm used to.

    Yes, it's trash.

    For the record there's a 4 mana 3/3 weapon (in Rogue) that sees no play. When that doesn't see play, it seems reasonable to guess the weapon by itself isn't good enough on its own (even if different classes and so forth). Then you add one mana on it and the Overkill keyword, but the Overkill keyword isn't going to trigger consistently enough for this to nearly make up for its overcostedness. Very doubtful.

    People who are shouting Equality and Shrink Ray haven't played Paladin. The more reasonable thing is to think about how often this would proc ina regular combat situation.

    Posted in: Card Discussion
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    posted a message on is trump good?
    Quote from Dendroid >>
    He believes (correctly, in ny opinion) that it is ridiculous to do a rating system based on the isolated power level of a card because cards are never isolated. They always exist within the context of other cards.
     

     That is precisely why he is so poor at card evaluation.  He creates his own hypothetical meta and then judges cards based on that, with the same standards you are saying he doesn't use.  How you don't see that as flawed reasoning and logic beyond me, but you are entitled to your opinion.  I mean his rational for giving EVERY Priest Ungoro card 1 star was that Priest was not viable...how is it reasonable to say EVERY card is bad based on this reasoning?  Undefendable, but he's a great entertainer, and he identifies as an entertainer, that's why overall I was positive of his influence towards the community.

     I wrote on this at length on a thread when he did his last review but here it is:

    What Trump tries to do is evaluate the cards in actual Standard laddering play within the next expansion. If there were 0 mechs in Standard and Blizz printed a 10 mana card that said "If there is a mech on the field, win the game," would you rate the card great? Of course not. The condition is impossible to meet within the meta. On a more realistic level, Golakka Crawler is a card no one uses anymore, and no one would even put it into their deck anymore since it's basically a River Crocolisk. On the other hand when MSoG was still in rotation and Pirate Warrior was in full flow, it was basically in every deck (including Pirate Warrior). See how relevant meta information is to the rating of a card?

    If all Priest had were 10 mana cards, it wouldn't matter that Priest had a 10 mana card that said "win the game," printed because there wouldn't be a Priest deck. That's the idea behind the Un'goro ratings. If you can't make a functioning Priest deck with that card included that can play against the meta decks currently in the meta, it doesn't matter WHAT cards Priest gets because they will never ever see play (Grimestreet Protector is a great example of a card that imo was Constructed viable but never saw any play because there wasn't a deck that could use it effectively). 

    You say he creates his own hypothetical meta; that is exactly what has to be done to predict things, and it's not based on just randomness, but the previous meta, and the new cards and the new decks that will create. People laugh and call it a "crystal ball meta," but he actually lays it out in his Boomsday video that he'd theorycrafted a certain deck and found it would not work. Now sometimes he gets those predictions wrong (Test Subject is a great example of a deck which Trump thought was going to be Constructed viable which is why he rated it 5 stars, only to whiff), but you are only human, you can make these mistakes. And on the whole he was correct. Defile and BR Guldan despite being OP never saw play throughout KotFT because Warlock didnt have the late game and demons to successfully support the kind of deck that would fit into.

    In fact, in my opinion, rating a card based on its objective power level is the more "crystal ball" - there are plenty of decks and cards that weren't given enough support and died out, like Dragon Paladin with Dragon Consort, Nightbane Templar, Elemental Shaman; how do YOU know that Blizz is going to print enough support for your "amazing card in a vacuum with no support" card? That's the REAL crystal ball, because while Trump is at least going off of real existing cards and metas(and the previous meta is important because if a certain deck can't beat out decks in a previous meta it won't exist), you are mind-reading Blizzard and saying this card will receive enough support in the future for it to be viable.

    His card reviews are generally on point if you remember that he is only predicting for the next expansion only (so don't dust things in case they get a futire expansion). He is also a good player if you are new and want educational content,particularly if you want a slow midrange or control deck. You should probably not watch him if you want to learn a combo deck (he's too slow). 

    Posted in: Players and Teams Discussion
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    posted a message on The untouchable Hearthpwn topic - armor removal tech

    Armour gain is not really an issue. The issue is usually not enough pressure in the midgame to counter the armor gain for those decks. The real problem with Druid right now isn't even the armour gain personally, it's the absurd amount of stall (Spreading Plague) and removal (1 mana Fireball a minion) they get to get to their late game. Odd Warrior isn't even an issue.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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