So, I typed up a huge explanation for what I thought was going on, as I was running games in the practice range to test my theory. Of course, I was wrong, so there goes all that time.
Long story short, Charged Devilsaur creates a delayed-aura affect that isn't linked to the devilsaur until after he comes into play.
Looking at The Mistcaller, his card used to work differently on a functional level. His battlecry actually did 2 things. 1: Give all minions in your hand +1/+1. Give your hand "whenever you draw a minion, give it +1/+1". This allowed you to play mistcaller several times, and then Elise (The old one) and your golden monkey generated legendaries would have the buff from Mistcaller. (This was my favorite deck for a long time, and I am very sad to see Blizzard fix their code.) This is because, for a long time, Hearthstone code didn't allow minions in the deck to receive buffs. The game wasn't able to recognize the deck as being a legal area for buffs to be placed. When Knights of the Frozen Throne came out, they cleaned up the client and recoded The Mistcaller to actually give individual cards in deck the buff. This was a good change, even if it ruined my favorite deck.
It appears that the Hearthstone client has no way of removing a single buff from a minion without silencing all the buffs from it. Because of this, Charged Devilsaur's "can't attack heroes" buff is coded and applied differently. It's a buff, yes, but it's put on another "layer" that auto-wipes at end of turn. Problem is, this "layer" doesn't exists anywhere except on the battlefield, so it has to delay its resolution until the creature is in play. So, when Ixilid copies a Charged Devilsaur, he copies the minion between when the battlecry triggers and when it resolves. A corner case, that makes people scratch their heads, to be sure.
Simply put, Hearthstone has complicated coding, mainly because they have inconsistencies in their rule book (heck, they don't really have a rule book). Hearthstone was designed by a much smaller team then they currently have on board, and because of that, it has problems in it's code. Rewritting the entire code to run smoother is a possibility, but it probably requires more time and energy then releasing an expansion. So Blizzard has decided to replace the bad parts when they rear their ugly heads, because it's too resource intensive to rewrite the entire game from the ground up.
tl;dr, Devilsaur works like this because of complicated coding involving it's own special layer that only Devilsaur has. It shouldn't work like this, but unless Blizzard wants to spend 6 months rewriting the entire game, it's just something we're going to have to live with.
So, I typed up a huge explanation for what I thought was going on, as I was running games in the practice range to test my theory. Of course, I was wrong, so there goes all that time.
Long story short, Charged Devilsaur creates a delayed-aura affect that isn't linked to the devilsaur until after he comes into play.
Looking at The Mistcaller, his card used to work differently on a functional level. His battlecry actually did 2 things. 1: Give all minions in your hand +1/+1. Give your hand "whenever you draw a minion, give it +1/+1". This allowed you to play mistcaller several times, and then Elise (The old one) and your golden monkey generated legendaries would have the buff from Mistcaller. (This was my favorite deck for a long time, and I am very sad to see Blizzard fix their code.) This is because, for a long time, Hearthstone code didn't allow minions in the deck to receive buffs. The game wasn't able to recognize the deck as being a legal area for buffs to be placed. When Knights of the Frozen Throne came out, they cleaned up the client and recoded The Mistcaller to actually give individual cards in deck the buff. This was a good change, even if it ruined my favorite deck.
It appears that the Hearthstone client has no way of removing a single buff from a minion without silencing all the buffs from it. Because of this, Charged Devilsaur's "can't attack heroes" buff is coded and applied differently. It's a buff, yes, but it's put on another "layer" that auto-wipes at end of turn. Problem is, this "layer" doesn't exists anywhere except on the battlefield, so it has to delay its resolution until the creature is in play. So, when Ixilid copies a Charged Devilsaur, he copies the minion between when the battlecry triggers and when it resolves. A corner case, that makes people scratch their heads, to be sure.
Simply put, Hearthstone has complicated coding, mainly because they have inconsistencies in their rule book (heck, they don't really have a rule book). Hearthstone was designed by a much smaller team then they currently have on board, and because of that, it has problems in it's code. Rewritting the entire code to run smoother is a possibility, but it probably requires more time and energy then releasing an expansion. So Blizzard has decided to replace the bad parts when they rear their ugly heads, because it's too resource intensive to rewrite the entire game from the ground up.
tl;dr, Devilsaur works like this because of complicated coding involving it's own special layer that only Devilsaur has. It shouldn't work like this, but unless Blizzard wants to spend 6 months rewriting the entire game, it's just something we're going to have to live with.
Except that's not what OP is talking about at all.
He's also talking about a very edge case where you play Devilsaur and then through cost reduction or +mana cards, play Faceless Manipulator in the same turn. I imagine Mirage Caller would be the same, along with Elixir of Shadows, Sapphire Spellstone, Molten Reflection, Sudden Genesis, Taldaram, etc.
It isn't just Devilsaur though. If we consider permanent effects "Enchantments" and temporary effects "Auras", it is inconsistent. Blizz clearly has a way to separate them; the easiest way to tell is with Potion of Madness. If you take a minion with Potion of Madness, it gains two Auras: one is Charge, the other is the one that returns it to your opponent at the end of the turn.
Now, when you copy that minion, the copy does not gain the Charge aura, BUT the enemy gets both the original and the copied minion back at the end of the turn (disclaimer: this is based off Hearthpwn comments on the card page, not my own testing).
So, it's clear that they have a way to differentiate the auras. All they would need to do is move Devilsaur into the same category as PotMad and it would be consistent.
That's that point, if it works like you said he shouldn't be able to attack, but he does (tested it against the innkeeper - he is right i could attack the enemy hero if the copy)
Are you sure the Devilsaur that was copied was played and activated the battlecry. I would like to see a screenshot of that, I don't own the card, but that is how the interaction works.
If you play Devilsaur with Ixlid on board, the new Devilsaur spawned from Ixlid can attack because it is a brand new version that didn't battlecry.
If you play Devilsaur from hand and activate it's Battlecry and then copy it with Faceless Manipulator, the new Devilsaur from Faceless cannot attack, if it attacks, it is bugged.
If you summon Devilsaur from some other method and copy it with Faceless, it will be able to attack.
That's that point, if it works like you said he shouldn't be able to attack, but he does (tested it against the innkeeper - he is right i could attack the enemy hero if the copy)
Thanks for testing it. If anyone is wondering how he was able to play all that, he used Jungle Giants and drew into them with UI.
So, I typed up a huge explanation for what I thought was going on, as I was running games in the practice range to test my theory. Of course, I was wrong, so there goes all that time.
Long story short, Charged Devilsaur creates a delayed-aura affect that isn't linked to the devilsaur until after he comes into play.
Looking at The Mistcaller, his card used to work differently on a functional level. His battlecry actually did 2 things. 1: Give all minions in your hand +1/+1. Give your hand "whenever you draw a minion, give it +1/+1". This allowed you to play mistcaller several times, and then Elise (The old one) and your golden monkey generated legendaries would have the buff from Mistcaller. (This was my favorite deck for a long time, and I am very sad to see Blizzard fix their code.) This is because, for a long time, Hearthstone code didn't allow minions in the deck to receive buffs. The game wasn't able to recognize the deck as being a legal area for buffs to be placed. When Knights of the Frozen Throne came out, they cleaned up the client and recoded The Mistcaller to actually give individual cards in deck the buff. This was a good change, even if it ruined my favorite deck.
It appears that the Hearthstone client has no way of removing a single buff from a minion without silencing all the buffs from it. Because of this, Charged Devilsaur's "can't attack heroes" buff is coded and applied differently. It's a buff, yes, but it's put on another "layer" that auto-wipes at end of turn. Problem is, this "layer" doesn't exists anywhere except on the battlefield, so it has to delay its resolution until the creature is in play. So, when Ixilid copies a Charged Devilsaur, he copies the minion between when the battlecry triggers and when it resolves. A corner case, that makes people scratch their heads, to be sure.
Simply put, Hearthstone has complicated coding, mainly because they have inconsistencies in their rule book (heck, they don't really have a rule book). Hearthstone was designed by a much smaller team then they currently have on board, and because of that, it has problems in it's code. Rewritting the entire code to run smoother is a possibility, but it probably requires more time and energy then releasing an expansion. So Blizzard has decided to replace the bad parts when they rear their ugly heads, because it's too resource intensive to rewrite the entire game from the ground up.
tl;dr, Devilsaur works like this because of complicated coding involving it's own special layer that only Devilsaur has. It shouldn't work like this, but unless Blizzard wants to spend 6 months rewriting the entire game, it's just something we're going to have to live with.
Thanks for the insight. HS really is messy and inconsistent. I thought they took the chance when they fixed the whole field/hand/deck order of events a year or so ago.
Are you sure the Devilsaur that was copied was played and activated the battlecry. I would like to see a screenshot of that, I don't own the card, but that is how the interaction works.
If you play Devilsaur with Ixlid on board, the new Devilsaur spawned from Ixlid can attack because it is a brand new version that didn't battlecry.
If you play Devilsaur from hand and activate it's Battlecry and then copy it with Faceless Manipulator, the new Devilsaur from Faceless cannot attack, if it attacks, it is bugged.
If you summon Devilsaur from some other method and copy it with Faceless, it will be able to attack.
Why should Ixlid's copy be able to attack tho? It reads "after you summon", so it should copy it with its attack restriction in place. It doesn't make sense that such a battlecry gets excluded. This whole thing doesn't seem intentional - like I said it's an oversight.
Battlecry specifically reads "Does something when you play it from your hand".
Any copies of a minion on board that already activated it's battlecry, will only be copying the Battery effect, deathrattle, charge, taunt, divine shield, windfury, lifesteal, poisonous etc.. creature type, stats.
If you have Ixlid, Fungal Lord on board, any minion you play from hand is copying the things I left in Bold in the paragraph above. Therefore, Charged Devilsaur would be played from hand, and not be able to hit face (as indicated by battlecry), the copy from Ixlid would be copying the minion that already triggered a battlecry, so the only thing being copied is charge and 7/7.
the OP is completely right, Ixlid's text says after the card is played, summon a copy, and therefore it should behave the same it does with other battlecries like Armored Warhorse or Alexstrasza's Champion, or the same as Charged Devilsaur with Faceless. however, as pointed out before in this thread, Charged Devilsaur's battlecry works differently than all other battlecries. To be brief, this is what happens:
1. Charged Devilsaur is played, and it's coded as a 7/7 beast with charge
2. Summoning happens before the battlecry for some reason, which is inconsistent with all other battlecries with Ixlid, as Ixlid is suppose to summon a copy after the Charged Devilsaur is played
3. Then the battlecry resolves on the played Charged Devilsaur, which is inconsistent. all other battlecries resolve after playing (7/7 charge) but before summoning (7/7 charge, can't attack face), but, for this interaction to make any sense, for some reason Charged Devilsaur's battlecry is coded to resolve after summoning as well, making it so Ixlid's copy effect, that resolves after summoning, happens before the battlecry, which resolves after the summoning of Charged Devilsaur.
this whole interaction could probably be fixed with a very inherent change to either Ixlid or Charged Devilsaur's code, but Blizzard doubtfully gives enough of a shit because it would probably fuck with some other battlecries, but there's no really definitive way to tell.
Im pretty sure a copy of Charged Devilsaur that was played from hand will NOT be able to attack face
This. If you play both Charged Devilsaur and Faceless on the same turn, neither can attack face. If you play CD then on the following turn Faceless, both can attack face that turn.
This used to be the interaction as I tried it (unsuccessfully) back when Aviana Kun was a thing. If it's no longer the case perhaps they tweaked Charge somehow while developing Rush.
Ixlid copy will always be able to attack face, regardless of what turn it is, because it's not an exact copy like Faceless.
This. If you play both Charged Devilsaur and Faceless on the same turn, neither can attack face. If you play CD then on the following turn Faceless, both can attack face that turn.
This used to be the interaction as I tried it (unsuccessfully) back when Aviana Kun was a thing. If it's no longer the case perhaps they tweaked Charge somehow while developing Rush.
Ixlid copy will always be able to attack face, regardless of what turn it is, because it's not an exact copy like Faceless.
Except that the Faceless copy can attack face as well, as tested by Gamalon.
This. If you play both Charged Devilsaur and Faceless on the same turn, neither can attack face. If you play CD then on the following turn Faceless, both can attack face that turn.
This used to be the interaction as I tried it (unsuccessfully) back when Aviana Kun was a thing. If it's no longer the case perhaps they tweaked Charge somehow while developing Rush.
Ixlid copy will always be able to attack face, regardless of what turn it is, because it's not an exact copy like Faceless.
Except that the Faceless copy can attack face as well, as tested by Gamalon.
Gamalon facelessed the ixlid copy, not the original.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Anger is the punishment we give ourselves for someone else's mistake.
I got you man. I believe that if you copy warrior's militia commander with faceless it has 5 attack instead of 2. Same should apply to devilsaur. You can report the bug and see what blizz has to say
So, I typed up a huge explanation for what I thought was going on, as I was running games in the practice range to test my theory. Of course, I was wrong, so there goes all that time.
Long story short, Charged Devilsaur creates a delayed-aura affect that isn't linked to the devilsaur until after he comes into play.
Looking at The Mistcaller, his card used to work differently on a functional level. His battlecry actually did 2 things. 1: Give all minions in your hand +1/+1. Give your hand "whenever you draw a minion, give it +1/+1". This allowed you to play mistcaller several times, and then Elise (The old one) and your golden monkey generated legendaries would have the buff from Mistcaller. (This was my favorite deck for a long time, and I am very sad to see Blizzard fix their code.) This is because, for a long time, Hearthstone code didn't allow minions in the deck to receive buffs. The game wasn't able to recognize the deck as being a legal area for buffs to be placed. When Knights of the Frozen Throne came out, they cleaned up the client and recoded The Mistcaller to actually give individual cards in deck the buff. This was a good change, even if it ruined my favorite deck.
It appears that the Hearthstone client has no way of removing a single buff from a minion without silencing all the buffs from it. Because of this, Charged Devilsaur's "can't attack heroes" buff is coded and applied differently. It's a buff, yes, but it's put on another "layer" that auto-wipes at end of turn. Problem is, this "layer" doesn't exists anywhere except on the battlefield, so it has to delay its resolution until the creature is in play. So, when Ixilid copies a Charged Devilsaur, he copies the minion between when the battlecry triggers and when it resolves. A corner case, that makes people scratch their heads, to be sure.
Simply put, Hearthstone has complicated coding, mainly because they have inconsistencies in their rule book (heck, they don't really have a rule book). Hearthstone was designed by a much smaller team then they currently have on board, and because of that, it has problems in it's code. Rewritting the entire code to run smoother is a possibility, but it probably requires more time and energy then releasing an expansion. So Blizzard has decided to replace the bad parts when they rear their ugly heads, because it's too resource intensive to rewrite the entire game from the ground up.
tl;dr, Devilsaur works like this because of complicated coding involving it's own special layer that only Devilsaur has. It shouldn't work like this, but unless Blizzard wants to spend 6 months rewriting the entire game, it's just something we're going to have to live with.
i think its fine ..
Lol@ these comments.
Battlecry specifically reads "Does something when you play it from your hand".
Any copies of a minion on board that already activated it's battlecry, will only be copying the Battery effect, deathrattle, charge, taunt, divine shield, windfury, lifesteal, poisonous etc.. creature type, stats.
If you have Ixlid, Fungal Lord on board, any minion you play from hand is copying the things I left in Bold in the paragraph above. Therefore, Charged Devilsaur would be played from hand, and not be able to hit face (as indicated by battlecry), the copy from Ixlid would be copying the minion that already triggered a battlecry, so the only thing being copied is charge and 7/7.
But using Witching Hour in combination with Faceless Manipulator would create multiple copies of a 7/7 charge minion.
"Do you smell something...burning?
the OP is completely right, Ixlid's text says after the card is played, summon a copy, and therefore it should behave the same it does with other battlecries like Armored Warhorse or Alexstrasza's Champion, or the same as Charged Devilsaur with Faceless. however, as pointed out before in this thread, Charged Devilsaur's battlecry works differently than all other battlecries. To be brief, this is what happens:
1. Charged Devilsaur is played, and it's coded as a 7/7 beast with charge
2. Summoning happens before the battlecry for some reason, which is inconsistent with all other battlecries with Ixlid, as Ixlid is suppose to summon a copy after the Charged Devilsaur is played
3. Then the battlecry resolves on the played Charged Devilsaur, which is inconsistent. all other battlecries resolve after playing (7/7 charge) but before summoning (7/7 charge, can't attack face), but, for this interaction to make any sense, for some reason Charged Devilsaur's battlecry is coded to resolve after summoning as well, making it so Ixlid's copy effect, that resolves after summoning, happens before the battlecry, which resolves after the summoning of Charged Devilsaur.
this whole interaction could probably be fixed with a very inherent change to either Ixlid or Charged Devilsaur's code, but Blizzard doubtfully gives enough of a shit because it would probably fuck with some other battlecries, but there's no really definitive way to tell.
It is not so complicated
Ixlid
Devilsaur , Devilsaur copy
Use faceless on teh copy and u get 2x more Devilsaur
At the end you have 1 "rush" Devilsaur and 3 with normal charge:>
Anger is the punishment we give ourselves for someone else's mistake.
Call the wahmbulance.
Anger is the punishment we give ourselves for someone else's mistake.
I got you man. I believe that if you copy warrior's militia commander with faceless it has 5 attack instead of 2. Same should apply to devilsaur. You can report the bug and see what blizz has to say
Anger is the punishment we give ourselves for someone else's mistake.