to play doomguard it should be mandatory to discard the 2 cards!
I've seen people argue that battlecry effects should also work as a "cost" where, in order to be able to play the card, the battlecry effect would have to be met.
I personally like Doomguard. I think it's strong and rewards smart players who learn to play around it's drawback.
Isn't that sort of already the case with BGH? If you have a minion with 7 or more attack and your opponent doesn't, won't the game refuse to play it unless you were to kill it? DID has the same thing where you must buff an opponent's minion if you have none. Brewmaster and Sergeant have this as well.
Just sort of. Remember you can play most of those minions on an empty board.
You can, but when the opportunity to meet their battlecry can be met, the game forces you to do so.
Not totally sure on the numbers, but Doomguard's chance of being used on turn 5, when he's at his strongest, is only 30% or so? If not lower?
Past turn 5, it gets easier and easier to deal with him, so he's not as scary. A lot of Zoo's backbone does come from this card as well as the 2 Soulfires, but that's just the nature of a good Aggro deck. At the end of the day, I think it's a good thing that Zoo exists to keep the metagame honest.
Not totally sure on the numbers, but Doomguard's chance of being used on turn 5, when he's at his strongest, is only 30% or so? If not lower?
Past turn 5, it gets easier and easier to deal with him, so he's not as scary. A lot of Zoo's backbone does come from this card as well as the 2 Soulfires, but that's just in the nature of of a good Aggro deck. At the end of the day, I think it's a good thing that Zoo exists to keep the metagame honest.
Another great point. Perhaps by turn 7 or 8 you can play all your other cards before playing Doomguard, but by then a 5/7 really isn't the end of the world, even with charge. If you want to play a 5/7 with charge on turn 5, when he's admittedly powerful, you're certainly going to discard cards. A deck which is empty on turn 4 to play a turn 5 Doomguard w/o discard is almost certainly too weak to be effective in the long run.
to play doomguard it should be mandatory to discard the 2 cards!
I've seen people argue that battlecry effects should also work as a "cost" where, in order to be able to play the card, the battlecry effect would have to be met.
I personally like Doomguard. I think it's strong and rewards smart players who learn to play around it's drawback.
Isn't that sort of already the case with BGH? If you have a minion with 7 or more attack and your opponent doesn't, won't the game refuse to play it unless you were to kill it? DID has the same thing where you must buff an opponent's minion if you have none. Brewmaster and Sergeant have this as well.
Just sort of. Remember you can play most of those minions on an empty board.
You can, but when the opportunity to meet their battlecry can be met, the game forces you to do so.
Yep! There is no way to ignore the battlecry IF it can be met and it's the same with Doomguard.
The difference is: if it was a cost you wouldn't be able to play an Acidic Swamp Ooze if your opponent didn't have a weapon equipped or a Blood Knight when there were no divine shields on the field and that would hurt those cards a lot.
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The difference between gimmick and sinergy is only consistency. Mrglglrglglglglglglgl!!!
Seems like someone just wants to keep non-interactive decks from doing what they do best, smash face without any interaction from the opposing player... at least you can put some Unstable Ghoul's in your deck as a precaution/concession to the fact that degenerate decks exist.
Should we ban all red cards in MTG?
I went to a legacy tournament back in the 90's and lost in the Top8 to a downright dirty combo deck on turn 1 both games. I'm only upset cuz I didn't think of it first. (damnit you Flash/Hulk!!!!)
i think doomguard is the reason i do not play zoolock (also prefer control) because 70% of the time mi begining hand is double doomguard (yep op card!) ( to compensate i got wild growth 80% of time with druid xd). it is an op card only in topdeck wars! ( at least on the zoo side)
In my opinion Doomguard is the biggest threat from a zoolock. Everything is pretty easy to remove or completely ignorable (such as egg or haunted creeper) and so keeping the board in check is pretty easy until Doomguard hits the field. When this happens you're usually already behind on tempo (which is the entire point of zoo) and it puts the final nail in the coffin. You can't deal with Doomguard AND all the other minions without running out of life, the tempo gain is just too strong. The fact that it has charge just makes it devastating.
I've ran Doomguard in midrange warlock and discarding two cards is a pretty easy decision for how much of an impact Doomguard has. It just wins games. The synergy with Voidcaller just gives midrange warlock some sick nasty tricks with void terror.
Give me atleast one reason to nerf him? It's a Charge minion with total stats of 12, he is in range of priests Shadow Word: Death, he has a really punishing Battlecry - discard 2 cards from your hand. So please, give me a reason to nerf him? Atleast suggest, what kind of card you want him to be.
The discard 2 cards from your hand never comes into play unless a zoolock is in a panic. The mechanic should be reworked a bit to discard the next 2 cards in your deck should your hand be too empty to discard normally. The card is meant to have a risk, but that risk is just not there.
I'm sure you do not play zoo yourself too much. I started the season to climb with zoo until rank 5, I had a pretty decent run, close to 83% win rate and I can tell you, more times than not, I played doomguard with discarding at least one card. The same can said about soulfire as well. Those topdecks what people always complain about do exist, however those are the minority. Zoo is not strong because of that, most games are won on the first 3 turns where you cannot play doomguard and basically you cannot empty your hand. Nerfing this card would have the same effect as the Hunter nerf we just had, the decks would change and people would still complain. If you want to kill Zoo, you are looking at the wrong place.
Totally wrong, with the most common variation of zoolock you won't win a game before turn 7 in most cases. Those decks are all about board control, who don't understand that won't ever use it at its full potential. BTW I don't know what deck you are using but even supposing your opponent let all your minions alive and even with the best hand possible you can't kill him before turn 4 ... so saying "most games are won on the first 3 turns" it's not true.
What I meant with that is that you build an advantage so big in the first 3 turns that your opponent cannot recover from it most of the cases. My average length of game was 7 turns, but I had many shorter and some longer.
Give me atleast one reason to nerf him? It's a Charge minion with total stats of 12, he is in range of priests Shadow Word: Death, he has a really punishing Battlecry - discard 2 cards from your hand. So please, give me a reason to nerf him? Atleast suggest, what kind of card you want him to be.
[Edit] I can also say, that he is one of the ONLY cards, that actually work like a large minion removal for Zoolocks. What is the other? Soulfire?
Give me atleast one reason to nerf him? It's a Charge minion with total stats of 12, he is in range of priests Shadow Word: Death, he has a really punishing Battlecry - discard 2 cards from your hand. So please, give me a reason to nerf him? Atleast suggest, what kind of card you want him to be.
[Edit] I can also say, that he is one of the ONLY cards, that actually work like a large minion removal for Zoolocks. What is the other? Soulfire?
Siphon Soul.
Siphon soul is way too slow for zoo, you need to wait till turn 7/8 to even play it combination with a life tap/minion. Sure, it removes a minion, but it also make certain you can't continue to flood the board that turn.
Give me atleast one reason to nerf him? It's a Charge minion with total stats of 12, he is in range of priests Shadow Word: Death, he has a really punishing Battlecry - discard 2 cards from your hand. So please, give me a reason to nerf him? Atleast suggest, what kind of card you want him to be.
[Edit] I can also say, that he is one of the ONLY cards, that actually work like a large minion removal for Zoolocks. What is the other? Soulfire?
Siphon Soul.
Siphon soul is way too slow for zoo, you need to wait till turn 7/8 to even play it combination with a life tap/minion. Sure, it removes a minion, but it also make certain you can't continue to flood the board that turn.
Yeah, I just meant for the warlock class in general. As for zoo, Power Overwhelming often works as removal.
I think it is time we discussed nerfing doomguard. The card is simply too powerful, since locks can dump their hands and play the card with no consequences on turn 5, or turn 7 and lifetap. I think the card simply is too powerful to not have the discard mechanic be forced. I think if we made the card only playable if you had two cards to discard, it would be a more fair matchup against zoo, because right now you either have to run hard counters that lose to all other decks, or get a very good specific starting draw to stand any chance. I don't see how anyone can argue that a 5/7 charge played on turn 5 with no cards being discarded is a fair mechanic. Right now it is far and away the most powerful 5 mana card in the game.
-P.S. I know I will get flamed for this especially by those who play zoo, but I think many players already know what I am saying is true, and the hate will only prove my point.
Enough pressure on zoo? Ok so I go face, he laughs and goes at my face harder. If I trade, his curve is insane and he has minons to play every turn no matter his draw. It doesn't take skill to play zoo, just slight common sense. It takes skill to play Maly rogue, and any control deck in the game than it does zoo. I watch pros stream on twitch all the time lose to zoo at high ranks where they specifically call out misplays by zoo players, but the zoo still wins when the control player doesn't get specific cards. We are starting to even see zoo bots, which shoots to shit your whole zoo takes skill argument. To hit legend it takes more skill obviously, but zoo can be played into higher ranks with even average skill due to the low cost minions and rarely having a bad draw.
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"Blizzard is just a small indie game company" -Mathmachine
Personally I think it's ok, but a better nerf instead would be to make the Warlock's hero power so they can't play the card they draw until the next turn.
Personally I think it's ok, but a better nerf instead would be to make the Warlock's hero power so they can't play the card they draw until the next turn.
I understand that sentiment, but I am on the fence about it. It would completely change the way handlocks are played, and may knock the game out of balance. I have heard similar arguments about it, however I am not sure it would be entirely fair to the class.
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"Blizzard is just a small indie game company" -Mathmachine
Personally I think it's ok, but a better nerf instead would be to make the Warlock's hero power so they can't play the card they draw until the next turn.
I understand that sentiment, but I am on the fence about it. It would completely change the way handlocks are played, and may knock the game out of balance. I have heard similar arguments about it, however I am not sure it would be entirely fair to the class.
It wouldn't really completely change handlock. They'd still get the card draw just as fast, so cards like mountain giant and twilight would be just as strong on turn 4 for example. The vast majority of the time when you tap as a handlock, you already have a card in hand to play.
I take it you literally just lost to Zoo, due to a Doomguard. Zoo has an incredibly low win rate, so it isn't a "perfect omg wtf OP" deck.
Even if you don't like it, it's not gonna change, or it would've already.
What decks are you running?
I am not salty at all about it, in fact I switched to deathrattle priest to climb the 12-8 ranks which were flooded with hunter and zoo. I am 8-2 against hunter/zoo, I am simply discussing a card that I feel gives an undue advantage in comparison to other class cards available. I still don't understand why what I am asking for would suddenly be so bad. You have a legendary card in Leeroy Jenkins that is 5/3 AND summons two whelps for your opponent. Now you are giving a class a card which has 4 more hp, doesn't summon any minions for opponent, and with an empty hand doesn't require the 'downside' mechanic. I simply have been waiting for someone to tell me why they think this is fair.
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"Blizzard is just a small indie game company" -Mathmachine
You can, but when the opportunity to meet their battlecry can be met, the game forces you to do so.
Not totally sure on the numbers, but Doomguard's chance of being used on turn 5, when he's at his strongest, is only 30% or so? If not lower?
Past turn 5, it gets easier and easier to deal with him, so he's not as scary. A lot of Zoo's backbone does come from this card as well as the 2 Soulfires, but that's just the nature of a good Aggro deck. At the end of the day, I think it's a good thing that Zoo exists to keep the metagame honest.
Another great point. Perhaps by turn 7 or 8 you can play all your other cards before playing Doomguard, but by then a 5/7 really isn't the end of the world, even with charge. If you want to play a 5/7 with charge on turn 5, when he's admittedly powerful, you're certainly going to discard cards. A deck which is empty on turn 4 to play a turn 5 Doomguard w/o discard is almost certainly too weak to be effective in the long run.
Yep! There is no way to ignore the battlecry IF it can be met and it's the same with Doomguard.
The difference is: if it was a cost you wouldn't be able to play an Acidic Swamp Ooze if your opponent didn't have a weapon equipped or a Blood Knight when there were no divine shields on the field and that would hurt those cards a lot.
The difference between gimmick and sinergy is only consistency. Mrglglrglglglglglglgl!!!
Seems like someone just wants to keep non-interactive decks from doing what they do best, smash face without any interaction from the opposing player... at least you can put some Unstable Ghoul's in your deck as a precaution/concession to the fact that degenerate decks exist.
Should we ban all red cards in MTG?
I went to a legacy tournament back in the 90's and lost in the Top8 to a downright dirty combo deck on turn 1 both games. I'm only upset cuz I didn't think of it first. (damnit you Flash/Hulk!!!!)
First post, had to make it a good one right?
Sleeping all day, Rip Van Winkling. Spend my nights in bars, Glasses Tinkling
Can we just talk about the RNG love with Voidcaller and our big boy Doomguard
I sell Murlocs and Murloc accessories.
Judging from the guy profile and posts. Obvious Troll......
i think doomguard is the reason i do not play zoolock (also prefer control) because 70% of the time mi begining hand is double doomguard (yep op card!) ( to compensate i got wild growth 80% of time with druid xd). it is an op card only in topdeck wars! ( at least on the zoo side)
In my opinion Doomguard is the biggest threat from a zoolock. Everything is pretty easy to remove or completely ignorable (such as egg or haunted creeper) and so keeping the board in check is pretty easy until Doomguard hits the field. When this happens you're usually already behind on tempo (which is the entire point of zoo) and it puts the final nail in the coffin. You can't deal with Doomguard AND all the other minions without running out of life, the tempo gain is just too strong. The fact that it has charge just makes it devastating.
I've ran Doomguard in midrange warlock and discarding two cards is a pretty easy decision for how much of an impact Doomguard has. It just wins games. The synergy with Voidcaller just gives midrange warlock some sick nasty tricks with void terror.
What I meant with that is that you build an advantage so big in the first 3 turns that your opponent cannot recover from it most of the cases. My average length of game was 7 turns, but I had many shorter and some longer.
Siphon Soul.
There is Shadow Bolt, but it is also slowish.
Yeah, I just meant for the warlock class in general. As for zoo, Power Overwhelming often works as removal.
I think it is time we discussed nerfing doomguard. The card is simply too powerful, since locks can dump their hands and play the card with no consequences on turn 5, or turn 7 and lifetap. I think the card simply is too powerful to not have the discard mechanic be forced. I think if we made the card only playable if you had two cards to discard, it would be a more fair matchup against zoo, because right now you either have to run hard counters that lose to all other decks, or get a very good specific starting draw to stand any chance. I don't see how anyone can argue that a 5/7 charge played on turn 5 with no cards being discarded is a fair mechanic. Right now it is far and away the most powerful 5 mana card in the game.
-P.S. I know I will get flamed for this especially by those who play zoo, but I think many players already know what I am saying is true, and the hate will only prove my point.
"Blizzard is just a small indie game company" -Mathmachine
Enough pressure on zoo? Ok so I go face, he laughs and goes at my face harder. If I trade, his curve is insane and he has minons to play every turn no matter his draw. It doesn't take skill to play zoo, just slight common sense. It takes skill to play Maly rogue, and any control deck in the game than it does zoo. I watch pros stream on twitch all the time lose to zoo at high ranks where they specifically call out misplays by zoo players, but the zoo still wins when the control player doesn't get specific cards. We are starting to even see zoo bots, which shoots to shit your whole zoo takes skill argument. To hit legend it takes more skill obviously, but zoo can be played into higher ranks with even average skill due to the low cost minions and rarely having a bad draw.
"Blizzard is just a small indie game company" -Mathmachine
Personally I think it's ok, but a better nerf instead would be to make the Warlock's hero power so they can't play the card they draw until the next turn.
I understand that sentiment, but I am on the fence about it. It would completely change the way handlocks are played, and may knock the game out of balance. I have heard similar arguments about it, however I am not sure it would be entirely fair to the class.
"Blizzard is just a small indie game company" -Mathmachine
It wouldn't really completely change handlock. They'd still get the card draw just as fast, so cards like mountain giant and twilight would be just as strong on turn 4 for example. The vast majority of the time when you tap as a handlock, you already have a card in hand to play.
I am not salty at all about it, in fact I switched to deathrattle priest to climb the 12-8 ranks which were flooded with hunter and zoo. I am 8-2 against hunter/zoo, I am simply discussing a card that I feel gives an undue advantage in comparison to other class cards available. I still don't understand why what I am asking for would suddenly be so bad. You have a legendary card in Leeroy Jenkins that is 5/3 AND summons two whelps for your opponent. Now you are giving a class a card which has 4 more hp, doesn't summon any minions for opponent, and with an empty hand doesn't require the 'downside' mechanic. I simply have been waiting for someone to tell me why they think this is fair.
"Blizzard is just a small indie game company" -Mathmachine
Moved to Card Discussion.