He is simply an amazing 5 drop, he is also never a bad card to draw in the late game.
The other minions who draw you a card all cost less than him; they give you too much of a board disadvantage in the early game (which can sometime snowball out of control) and they aren't really useful in the late game - (for example Novice Engineer or Loot Hoarder). Azure Drake is the best minion who draw you a card. Everyone's deck need cards draw, so he fit well in almost every deck, which IMO makes it OP.
Plus, the +1 damage is very useful and synergize well with almost every class. He is also one of the best +1 damage minion in the game, another reason why you see him in almost every deck.
Also, like Loot Hoarder or Bloodmage Thalnos (closest competitor), Azure Drake can't be countered because you can't really silence it. Having the card draw right away also makes it even better.
The fact that, he his a big minion + give you a card back + has spell damage; makes it very versatile and a good card to play in almost every situation.
What do you guys think?
I would make it: 5/4, +1 damage, draw a card, cost 6.
Or just remove the +1 damage.
I think that many many decks would still be using it, because a 4/4 card draw minion cost 5 is still a very solid card.
he has well distributed stats, but hes not overbudget imo. the only problem with him is the fact, that hes pretty much the only decently sized neutral minion with card draw and we need alternatives to him, not nerfs.
he has well distributed stats, but hes not overbudget imo. the only problem with him is the fact, that hes pretty much the only decently sized neutral minion with card draw and we need alternatives to him, not nerfs.
8 cumulative stats ~ 3.5 Mana
+1 Spell Damage ~ 0.5 Mana
Instant Card Draw ~ 2 Mana
Sum = 6 Mana
Statistically, it's, without a doubt, absolutely overbudget. That said, though, I don't really think it's op because there is so much stuff that can deal 4 damage with ease at that point of the game so it often still ends up being a tempo loss.
he has well distributed stats, but hes not overbudget imo. the only problem with him is the fact, that hes pretty much the only decently sized neutral minion with card draw and we need alternatives to him, not nerfs.
8 cumulative stats ~ 3.5 Mana
+1 Spell Damage ~ 0.5 Mana
Instant Card Draw ~ 2 Mana
Sum = 6 Mana
Statistically, it's, without a doubt, absolutely overbudget. That said, though, I don't really think it's op because there is so much stuff that can deal 4 damage with ease at that point of the game so it often still ends up being a tempo loss.
instant card draw isnt valued as 2 mana on ANY minion in the game, novice engineer has 1 and half mana card draw, so does inventor, ancient of lore has 1 mana per card, azure has 1 mana per card, pure card draw spells dont have a card for 2 mana either, being it sprint, nourish, arcane intelect or lay on hands, the only spells wth card draw for 2 mana are multifucntional nuke spells like shiv, wrath, hammer and starfire.
As an example, Azure Drake has 12 points of stats on the card, but the mana cost is for an 11 point card. So the card is slightly more valuable than its cost would dictate.
Novice Engineer is right on point. It has 5 points of stats and its mana cost equates to a 5 point card.
he has well distributed stats, but hes not overbudget imo. the only problem with him is the fact, that hes pretty much the only decently sized neutral minion with card draw and we need alternatives to him, not nerfs.
8 cumulative stats ~ 3.5 Mana
+1 Spell Damage ~ 0.5 Mana
Instant Card Draw ~ 2 Mana
Sum = 6 Mana
Statistically, it's, without a doubt, absolutely overbudget. That said, though, I don't really think it's op because there is so much stuff that can deal 4 damage with ease at that point of the game so it often still ends up being a tempo loss.
instant card draw isnt valued as 2 mana on ANY minion in the game, novice engineer has 1 and half mana card draw, so does inventor, ancient of lore has 1 mana per card, azure has 1 mana per card, pure card draw spells dont have a card for 2 mana either, being it sprint, nourish, arcane intelect or lay on hands, the only spells wth card draw for 2 mana are multifucntional nuke spells like shiv, wrath, hammer and starfire.
Novice Engineer is Wisp + card draw, so engineer has 2 Mana for card draw. You already mentioned the nuke spells. Innervate is the opposite with 2 Mana for forfeiting a card. Though it's true Card draw isn't always 2, it isn't always one and a half either. So, you can imho price it both. Hero Powers are priced with 2 Mana for a 0 Cost Effect, too. Even with card draw considered as only 1.5, Azure Drake is still over-budget.
Also, there's a reason why Ancient of Lore is considered a staple on Druid decks: It's extremely over-budget.
he has well distributed stats, but hes not overbudget imo. the only problem with him is the fact, that hes pretty much the only decently sized neutral minion with card draw and we need alternatives to him, not nerfs.
8 cumulative stats ~ 3.5 Mana
+1 Spell Damage ~ 0.5 Mana
Instant Card Draw ~ 2 Mana
Sum = 6 Mana
Statistically, it's, without a doubt, absolutely overbudget. That said, though, I don't really think it's op because there is so much stuff that can deal 4 damage with ease at that point of the game so it often still ends up being a tempo loss.
instant card draw isnt valued as 2 mana on ANY minion in the game, novice engineer has 1 and half mana card draw, so does inventor, ancient of lore has 1 mana per card, azure has 1 mana per card, pure card draw spells dont have a card for 2 mana either, being it sprint, nourish, arcane intelect or lay on hands, the only spells wth card draw for 2 mana are multifucntional nuke spells like shiv, wrath, hammer and starfire.
Novice Engineer is Wisp + card draw, so engineer has 2 Mana for card draw. You already mentioned the nuke spells. Innervate is the opposite with 2 Mana for forfeiting a card. Though it's true Card draw isn't always 2, it isn't always one and a half either. So, you can imho price it both. Hero Powers are priced with 2 Mana for a 0 Cost Effect, too. Even with card draw considered as only 1.5, Azure Drake is still over-budget.
Also, there's a reason why Ancient of Lore is considered a staple on Druid decks: It's extremely over-budget.
You forget that 0 mana cards are not free, a card by itself has value. 2 drops have 5 stat points, 2 per mana +1, and therefore 3 stat points is 1.5 mana.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Unless explicitly stated, my posts are my opinion and mine only.
Even if it were over the top, it's a rare. Meaning that it's one of the cards new players should be trying to get, and so it's a good collection director. It is on the top of the tier list, but it's not over the top, and having an averagely accessible and fun top tier card is /so/ good for new players. Even if it were too much, it's in the position that giving it a nerf hurts new players too much, and doesn't affect board state too much to be ridiculous. While I'm personally still upset about it, the novice nerf was somewhat necessary, though nowadays might be revertable. Still, doing anything to cards immediately- or at least quickly- attainable by new players hurts the game far more than trying to balance so that even slightly overperforming cheap card becomes much less useful. (Azure Drake as a 5-4 for 6, are you insane?)
IMO the "best" card in the game is power word sheild. It can gain you huge tempo when played on a two drop and replaces itself with the card draw. If preist ever becomes truly viable the under the radar, subtle greatness of this card will be fully known!
As far as Azure Drake, it is a great card but not OP IMO. It is one of the best top decks in the game though.
he has well distributed stats, but hes not overbudget imo. the only problem with him is the fact, that hes pretty much the only decently sized neutral minion with card draw and we need alternatives to him, not nerfs.
8 cumulative stats ~ 3.5 Mana
+1 Spell Damage ~ 0.5 Mana
Instant Card Draw ~ 2 Mana
Sum = 6 Mana
Statistically, it's, without a doubt, absolutely overbudget. That said, though, I don't really think it's op because there is so much stuff that can deal 4 damage with ease at that point of the game so it often still ends up being a tempo loss.
instant card draw isnt valued as 2 mana on ANY minion in the game, novice engineer has 1 and half mana card draw, so does inventor, ancient of lore has 1 mana per card, azure has 1 mana per card, pure card draw spells dont have a card for 2 mana either, being it sprint, nourish, arcane intelect or lay on hands, the only spells wth card draw for 2 mana are multifucntional nuke spells like shiv, wrath, hammer and starfire.
Novice Engineer is Wisp + card draw, so engineer has 2 Mana for card draw. You already mentioned the nuke spells. Innervate is the opposite with 2 Mana for forfeiting a card. Though it's true Card draw isn't always 2, it isn't always one and a half either. So, you can imho price it both. Hero Powers are priced with 2 Mana for a 0 Cost Effect, too. Even with card draw considered as only 1.5, Azure Drake is still over-budget.
Also, there's a reason why Ancient of Lore is considered a staple on Druid decks: It's extremely over-budget.
You forget that 0 mana cards are not free, a card by itself has value. 2 drops have 5 stat points, 2 per mana +1, and therefore 3 stat points is 1.5 mana.
I didn't forget that, in fact, that was my point. Wisp/Moonfire is the "base value card" since it costs zero, Novice/Shiv/Paladin HP/Mage HP do the same but cost 2 more and draw a card, therefore card draw priced at two in this case. It's the same with Flare vs Arcane Intellect vs Nourish vs Sprint, they all cost 2 more and add another card, though flare gets a small effect on top of that for obvious reasons. I'm aware though that there are comparisons where it doesn't fit this, so imho it's somewhere inbetween, neither being exactly 1.5 nor 2, and I used 2 for convenience.
he has well distributed stats, but hes not overbudget imo. the only problem with him is the fact, that hes pretty much the only decently sized neutral minion with card draw and we need alternatives to him, not nerfs.
8 cumulative stats ~ 3.5 Mana
+1 Spell Damage ~ 0.5 Mana
Instant Card Draw ~ 2 Mana
Sum = 6 Mana
Statistically, it's, without a doubt, absolutely overbudget. That said, though, I don't really think it's op because there is so much stuff that can deal 4 damage with ease at that point of the game so it often still ends up being a tempo loss.
instant card draw isnt valued as 2 mana on ANY minion in the game, novice engineer has 1 and half mana card draw, so does inventor, ancient of lore has 1 mana per card, azure has 1 mana per card, pure card draw spells dont have a card for 2 mana either, being it sprint, nourish, arcane intelect or lay on hands, the only spells wth card draw for 2 mana are multifucntional nuke spells like shiv, wrath, hammer and starfire.
Novice Engineer is Wisp + card draw, so engineer has 2 Mana for card draw. You already mentioned the nuke spells. Innervate is the opposite with 2 Mana for forfeiting a card. Though it's true Card draw isn't always 2, it isn't always one and a half either. So, you can imho price it both. Hero Powers are priced with 2 Mana for a 0 Cost Effect, too. Even with card draw considered as only 1.5, Azure Drake is still over-budget.
Also, there's a reason why Ancient of Lore is considered a staple on Druid decks: It's extremely over-budget.
You forget that 0 mana cards are not free, a card by itself has value. 2 drops have 5 stat points, 2 per mana +1, and therefore 3 stat points is 1.5 mana.
I didn't forget that, in fact, that was my point. Wisp/Moonfire is the "base value card" since it costs zero, Novice/Shiv/Paladin HP/Mage HP do the same but cost 2 more and draw a card, therefore card draw priced at two in this case. It's the same with Flare vs Arcane Intellect vs Nourish vs Sprint, they all cost 2 more and add another card, though flare gets a small effect on top of that for obvious reasons. I'm aware though that there are comparisons where it doesn't fit this, so imho it's somewhere inbetween, neither being exactly 1.5 nor 2, and I used 2 for convenience.
yeah, that works if you look at plane minion and add stuff to him and then calculate mana, then novice is 2 mana draw. Im looking at it backwards, I look at mana first, compare it to plain minion stats and then figure out how much stats it lost for its text, IE novice is 2mana drop, that lost 3 stats (1 and half mana) for the card draw.
that said, 1/2mana minions have plenty of exceptions/inconsistencies with budgeting anyway, alot of 1 and 2drops dont loose stats even with text, most obvious is probably divine shield or why is abusive fully costed 1drop, when dark iron dwarf has the same effect, but pays an extra stat for it
It's absolutely overpowered in the sense that almost every single deck runs it. Rush, midrange, tempo, and control all run it for the most part. It's shitty because I always want to drop it to be more creative with my decks but it's just too good and that stifles gameplay. There are a lot of "required" cards in the game but they are all class cards with the exception of azure drake which is neutral. It just doesn't make any sense to have a card in the game that you either have to play or become less competitive.
It's absolutely overpowered in the sense that almost every single deck runs it. Rush, midrange, tempo, and control all run it for the most part. It's shitty because I always want to drop it to be more creative with my decks but it's just too good and that stifles gameplay. There are a lot of "required" cards in the game but they are all class cards with the exception of azure drake which is neutral. It just doesn't make any sense to have a card in the game that you either have to play or become less competitive.
its run alot because its pretty much unique, solid body, card draw and secondary effect, we need alternatives to him, not nerfs...
I run a deck with almost no spells but lots of Charge minions. In that deck, the Azure Drake is right on curve, but the Cult Master beats it by a mile, so I run Cult Masters for my card draw. I also have a Hunter deck that still runs the Hounds/Buzzard combo and I do not miss Azure Drake in that deck even though it has spells.
But yeah, if I'm running a deck that doesn't specifically favor a different method of card draw, I will use the Drake. Like a lot of other posters have mentioned, I think it's the lack of options rather than the strength of the Drake.
Great card, but hardly OP. To say that the card is OP is a pretty ridiculous assumption. Yes, it is powerful and very helpful in many ways, but OP? Nah.
Azure Drake.
This card is just too good IMO.
He is simply an amazing 5 drop, he is also never a bad card to draw in the late game.
The other minions who draw you a card all cost less than him; they give you too much of a board disadvantage in the early game (which can sometime snowball out of control) and they aren't really useful in the late game - (for example Novice Engineer or Loot Hoarder). Azure Drake is the best minion who draw you a card. Everyone's deck need cards draw, so he fit well in almost every deck, which IMO makes it OP.
Plus, the +1 damage is very useful and synergize well with almost every class. He is also one of the best +1 damage minion in the game, another reason why you see him in almost every deck.
Also, like Loot Hoarder or Bloodmage Thalnos (closest competitor), Azure Drake can't be countered because you can't really silence it. Having the card draw right away also makes it even better.
The fact that, he his a big minion + give you a card back + has spell damage; makes it very versatile and a good card to play in almost every situation.
What do you guys think?
I would make it: 5/4, +1 damage, draw a card, cost 6.
Or just remove the +1 damage.
I think that many many decks would still be using it, because a 4/4 card draw minion cost 5 is still a very solid card.
A maybe make it deathrattle?
he has well distributed stats, but hes not overbudget imo. the only problem with him is the fact, that hes pretty much the only decently sized neutral minion with card draw and we need alternatives to him, not nerfs.
8 cumulative stats ~ 3.5 Mana
+1 Spell Damage ~ 0.5 Mana
Instant Card Draw ~ 2 Mana
Sum = 6 Mana
Statistically, it's, without a doubt, absolutely overbudget. That said, though, I don't really think it's op because there is so much stuff that can deal 4 damage with ease at that point of the game so it often still ends up being a tempo loss.
instant card draw isnt valued as 2 mana on ANY minion in the game, novice engineer has 1 and half mana card draw, so does inventor, ancient of lore has 1 mana per card, azure has 1 mana per card, pure card draw spells dont have a card for 2 mana either, being it sprint, nourish, arcane intelect or lay on hands, the only spells wth card draw for 2 mana are multifucntional nuke spells like shiv, wrath, hammer and starfire.
For more on minion valuation, the following links contains a breakdown:
http://hearthpoe.blogspot.com/2014/01/minion-valuation.html
http://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/4386-minion-valuation
As an example, Azure Drake has 12 points of stats on the card, but the mana cost is for an 11 point card. So the card is slightly more valuable than its cost would dictate.
Novice Engineer is right on point. It has 5 points of stats and its mana cost equates to a 5 point card.
Poetic.
I wouldnt mind the drake becoming a 3/4 personally, but thats mostly because I play priest and I get tired of so many 4 attack minions lol :P
That coin though, pretty OP stuff, AND it counts as a spell. Now that shits over budget.
Novice Engineer is Wisp + card draw, so engineer has 2 Mana for card draw. You already mentioned the nuke spells. Innervate is the opposite with 2 Mana for forfeiting a card. Though it's true Card draw isn't always 2, it isn't always one and a half either. So, you can imho price it both. Hero Powers are priced with 2 Mana for a 0 Cost Effect, too. Even with card draw considered as only 1.5, Azure Drake is still over-budget.
Also, there's a reason why Ancient of Lore is considered a staple on Druid decks: It's extremely over-budget.
This.
https://soundcloud.com/zenkreyofficial/danny-darko-hurricane-zenkrey-remix
You forget that 0 mana cards are not free, a card by itself has value. 2 drops have 5 stat points, 2 per mana +1, and therefore 3 stat points is 1.5 mana.
Unless explicitly stated, my posts are my opinion and mine only.
Even if it were over the top, it's a rare. Meaning that it's one of the cards new players should be trying to get, and so it's a good collection director. It is on the top of the tier list, but it's not over the top, and having an averagely accessible and fun top tier card is /so/ good for new players. Even if it were too much, it's in the position that giving it a nerf hurts new players too much, and doesn't affect board state too much to be ridiculous. While I'm personally still upset about it, the novice nerf was somewhat necessary, though nowadays might be revertable. Still, doing anything to cards immediately- or at least quickly- attainable by new players hurts the game far more than trying to balance so that even slightly overperforming cheap card becomes much less useful. (Azure Drake as a 5-4 for 6, are you insane?)
how can the most used card be under the radar ?
azure drake gets punished in terms of tempo by argent commander so its never op
IMO the "best" card in the game is power word sheild. It can gain you huge tempo when played on a two drop and replaces itself with the card draw. If preist ever becomes truly viable the under the radar, subtle greatness of this card will be fully known!
As far as Azure Drake, it is a great card but not OP IMO. It is one of the best top decks in the game though.
I didn't forget that, in fact, that was my point. Wisp/Moonfire is the "base value card" since it costs zero, Novice/Shiv/Paladin HP/Mage HP do the same but cost 2 more and draw a card, therefore card draw priced at two in this case. It's the same with Flare vs Arcane Intellect vs Nourish vs Sprint, they all cost 2 more and add another card, though flare gets a small effect on top of that for obvious reasons. I'm aware though that there are comparisons where it doesn't fit this, so imho it's somewhere inbetween, neither being exactly 1.5 nor 2, and I used 2 for convenience.
yeah, that works if you look at plane minion and add stuff to him and then calculate mana, then novice is 2 mana draw. Im looking at it backwards, I look at mana first, compare it to plain minion stats and then figure out how much stats it lost for its text, IE novice is 2mana drop, that lost 3 stats (1 and half mana) for the card draw.
that said, 1/2mana minions have plenty of exceptions/inconsistencies with budgeting anyway, alot of 1 and 2drops dont loose stats even with text, most obvious is probably divine shield or why is abusive fully costed 1drop, when dark iron dwarf has the same effect, but pays an extra stat for it
It's absolutely overpowered in the sense that almost every single deck runs it. Rush, midrange, tempo, and control all run it for the most part. It's shitty because I always want to drop it to be more creative with my decks but it's just too good and that stifles gameplay. There are a lot of "required" cards in the game but they are all class cards with the exception of azure drake which is neutral. It just doesn't make any sense to have a card in the game that you either have to play or become less competitive.
its run alot because its pretty much unique, solid body, card draw and secondary effect, we need alternatives to him, not nerfs...
I run a deck with almost no spells but lots of Charge minions. In that deck, the Azure Drake is right on curve, but the Cult Master beats it by a mile, so I run Cult Masters for my card draw. I also have a Hunter deck that still runs the Hounds/Buzzard combo and I do not miss Azure Drake in that deck even though it has spells.
But yeah, if I'm running a deck that doesn't specifically favor a different method of card draw, I will use the Drake. Like a lot of other posters have mentioned, I think it's the lack of options rather than the strength of the Drake.
Great card, but hardly OP. To say that the card is OP is a pretty ridiculous assumption. Yes, it is powerful and very helpful in many ways, but OP? Nah.
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