There are a lot of cards in Hearthstone, as with any good TCG or CCG, that are bad, or at least low value. Some cards are just too situational to use in a constructed deck unless the meta requires it. Magma Rager is the classic example of the first sort of card. It just dies too easily to be playable, since most opponents will kill it for free or at least trade up a 1 or 2 drop minion for it. Lorewalker Cho is an example of the second sort of card. In a Mage (especially secrets Mage) or control Druid/Priest/Paladin meta, Cho would be a staple of aggro decks.
I think most people understand why these cards aren't played. The cards which obviously don't give you competitive value well, obviously don't give you the value. I want to discuss the ambiguous cards. Cards that we know are "bad" or have low value, because the top decks don't run them, or because (Streamer's Name Here) said not to run it, but we have no idea why they're bad.
First example: Bestial Wrath. Presumably this should be a good card for a control style of Hunter. Why isn't it run? It essentially gives you a kill spell that leaves a minion on the field. It's like an Argent Commander but for beasts.
Next example: Snipe. Snipe appears to be a cheap, albeit untargetable, removal spell. 2 mana for 4 damage is slightly above curve. Yet few decks seem to run it, even though it should consistently get value as 4 damage is more than enough to kill most creature drops.
Next: Gladiator's Longbow. This seems like a fairly efficient card for a control deck. It will generally 2-for-1 and you don't even take damage for it.
Next: Ice Barrier. It's almost exactly the same thing as Healing Touch, just slightly (very slightly) easier to work around.
I could go on, but I'd like to see what people think about these first few for now. My first thought is that these classes just lend themselves to a certain style, so the cards I've mentioned aren't as good because they don't synergize with that style. But I don't know. Post cards you know are low value but wonder about below, and we'll see if we can't try to understand how to play the game a bit better.
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Hearthstone is a math game. If you think it's overpowered, do the math, compare it to other similar cards, and then if it doesn't all add up, complain about it being overpowered.
Bestial Wrath is too situational and doesn't do enough to warrant playing a whole card. It's almost like using some of the paladin 1-cost spells... The effects are nice but it's just not enough.
Snipe is a decent card. In my opinion it's on a similar level to mirror entity. You can get lucky with it and win but most of the time it's just going to be mediocre.
Gladiator's Longbow is far too slow to be of good use. The damage you save to the face is made up for by the lateness of this card. Control hunter isn't very good because they lack solid early-mid game removal (secrets are too unreliable and Explosive Shot just doesn't cut it).
Ice Barrier is used in control mage decks as a sort of Healing Touch. It's just that mage control decks aren't very popular right now.
I've always wondered why Elven Archer was considered one of the worst 1-mana minions. Like Argent Squire, a lot of its value comes from being able to trade with other 1-mana or 2-mana minions and leave yourself a 1/1 leftover, but unlike Argent Squire, you don't have to wait a turn to deal that 1 damage. Argent Squire has the added bonus of possibly keeping that Divine Shield, but Elven Archer has the same effect as Argent Squire in a lot of situations but with more immediate results.
I actually think Snipe might be a very underrated card, it can work well in midrange Hunter and it is actually an amazing play vs. Miracle Rogue as long as you save it for around the time you think they will drop Gadgetzan/Leeroy, then they have to drop something else to pop it (and they might think it is Explosive Trap at first, too). Just messing up the plays even for just a turn can really make the difference in the MU.
I looked at this card originally and I thought, you know, it's a card, and you play this card. The card will be that card that you play so you're playing a card. So, it is one thing to play a card. If you're opponent doesn't really have any cards, the card will screw up the card pretty hard, and that means it's a pretty good card.
I just want Lorewalker Cho to only copy my opponent's spell, not mine to him/her.
We don't use those cards because they are obviously designed to be weak thus hardly providing advantageous situation on board.
And I don't think they should stay that way, because for the weakness of those cards we lose the choices of this game.
Wow, dude, you are so convoluted. You don't know the first thing about design.
Please stop talking from an utter lack of knowledge or experience. You are ruining good discussion with your nonsense
Fact is, Bestial Wrath isn't the worst. It's design is slightly flawed in how you need to have stuff on board and be in range to kill with the creature.
Lorewalker so much fun in Zoo and was designed as such. It's a fun card that is limited in it's advantageous usage. Design the deck around it and stun opponents with it.
Snipe requires the opponent to gift play you the card you can/want to kill.
Arcane Shot isn't as good as something like frostbolt/wrath. Deadly Shot is a bit silly for early game removal. Definitely good against midrange though. Kill Command isn't very impressive. 3 dmg for 3 is bad, and 5 dmg isn't something useful or obtainable in the early game. Also good against midrange. Eaglehorn Bow makes you take damage for clearing minions, and provides no health. Hunter has no good ways to gain health back. Multi-Shot is a bit too situational, just like cleave or forked lightning. Other control decks also compliment good removal with a couple good early game minions like armorsmith, and hunter's only good option to fit this role is river crocalisk.
Contrast this with a class like druid that has: Claw, which can let you kill a turn 1 flame imp or on turn 3 can kill something with 3 hp. Claw even gives you 2 armor! Wrath is a nice way to deal 3 dmg for 2 mana, and if you're staring down some x/1 that you don't want to hit with your face you can even draw a card! Keeper of the grove which you can innervate into to kill a 2 drop, or just a nice 2 dmg on turn 4. 2/4's are also tough to deal with.
Or contrast it with a class like warrior which gains large quantity's of armor.
Don't get me wrong, control hunter would SMASH midrange decks but would get equally SMASHED by rushes.
Also Hogger doesn't seem to see as much play any more and I think he's one of the best leg ends!
Misdirection is resurging in popularity. I don't know why you would ever use Spellbender when you have Counterspell. Sure, there's the occasional times where someone will BoK your Spellbender, but otherwise it's just tempo loss.
Eye for an Eye wouldn't be bad if it weren't for the fact that the solution to the most common Paladin secrets is "Attack with your weakest minion first", in which case it usually ends up doing 1 damage or so to your opponent.
To me, secrets are there to keep your opponent guessing and make them second guess themselves when it comes to their next turn, so Counterspell AND Spellbender would confuse and unnerve them more for example, same as Ice Block and Ice barrier, you get the added benefit (sometimes) of the opponent being too afraid to play cards as the're playing around what they think the secret is
Yes ice block is the ultimate troll. You never know what it is until you've done everything! (or proc'd the ice block)
I actually think Snipe might be a very underrated card, it can work well in midrange Hunter and it is actually an amazing play vs. Miracle Rogue as long as you save it for around the time you think they will drop Gadgetzan/Leeroy, then they have to drop something else to pop it (and they might think it is Explosive Trap at first, too). Just messing up the plays even for just a turn can really make the difference in the MU.
Sounds more like a tournament environment meta pick than a ranked ladder card, IMO. The ladder is full of everything, not just Miracle Rogue.
Snipe isn't bad in a lot of other MUs too. Kills Azure Drakes and makes Fire Elementals doggie bait, puts Giants in a much more non-Hunter's Mark kill range and it can actually be okay vs. Zoo if you're also packing Explosive Trap. I will admit it is probably much more of a tournament pick, though.
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There are a lot of cards in Hearthstone, as with any good TCG or CCG, that are bad, or at least low value. Some cards are just too situational to use in a constructed deck unless the meta requires it. Magma Rager is the classic example of the first sort of card. It just dies too easily to be playable, since most opponents will kill it for free or at least trade up a 1 or 2 drop minion for it. Lorewalker Cho is an example of the second sort of card. In a Mage (especially secrets Mage) or control Druid/Priest/Paladin meta, Cho would be a staple of aggro decks.
I think most people understand why these cards aren't played. The cards which obviously don't give you competitive value well, obviously don't give you the value. I want to discuss the ambiguous cards. Cards that we know are "bad" or have low value, because the top decks don't run them, or because (Streamer's Name Here) said not to run it, but we have no idea why they're bad.
First example: Bestial Wrath. Presumably this should be a good card for a control style of Hunter. Why isn't it run? It essentially gives you a kill spell that leaves a minion on the field. It's like an Argent Commander but for beasts.
Next example: Snipe. Snipe appears to be a cheap, albeit untargetable, removal spell. 2 mana for 4 damage is slightly above curve. Yet few decks seem to run it, even though it should consistently get value as 4 damage is more than enough to kill most creature drops.
Next: Gladiator's Longbow. This seems like a fairly efficient card for a control deck. It will generally 2-for-1 and you don't even take damage for it.
Next: Ice Barrier. It's almost exactly the same thing as Healing Touch, just slightly (very slightly) easier to work around.
I could go on, but I'd like to see what people think about these first few for now. My first thought is that these classes just lend themselves to a certain style, so the cards I've mentioned aren't as good because they don't synergize with that style. But I don't know. Post cards you know are low value but wonder about below, and we'll see if we can't try to understand how to play the game a bit better.
Hearthstone is a math game. If you think it's overpowered, do the math, compare it to other similar cards, and then if it doesn't all add up, complain about it being overpowered.
Bestial Wrath is too situational and doesn't do enough to warrant playing a whole card. It's almost like using some of the paladin 1-cost spells... The effects are nice but it's just not enough.
Snipe is a decent card. In my opinion it's on a similar level to mirror entity. You can get lucky with it and win but most of the time it's just going to be mediocre.
Gladiator's Longbow is far too slow to be of good use. The damage you save to the face is made up for by the lateness of this card. Control hunter isn't very good because they lack solid early-mid game removal (secrets are too unreliable and Explosive Shot just doesn't cut it).
Ice Barrier is used in control mage decks as a sort of Healing Touch. It's just that mage control decks aren't very popular right now.
I've always wondered why Elven Archer was considered one of the worst 1-mana minions. Like Argent Squire, a lot of its value comes from being able to trade with other 1-mana or 2-mana minions and leave yourself a 1/1 leftover, but unlike Argent Squire, you don't have to wait a turn to deal that 1 damage. Argent Squire has the added bonus of possibly keeping that Divine Shield, but Elven Archer has the same effect as Argent Squire in a lot of situations but with more immediate results.
I just want Lorewalker Cho to only copy my opponent's spell, not mine to him/her.
We don't use those cards because they are obviously designed to be weak thus hardly providing advantageous situation on board.
And I don't think they should stay that way, because for the weakness of those cards we lose the choices of this game.
An eye for an eye, leads the whole world blind.
I actually think Snipe might be a very underrated card, it can work well in midrange Hunter and it is actually an amazing play vs. Miracle Rogue as long as you save it for around the time you think they will drop Gadgetzan/Leeroy, then they have to drop something else to pop it (and they might think it is Explosive Trap at first, too). Just messing up the plays even for just a turn can really make the difference in the MU.
D00mL0rd: Hunters lack solid early-mid game removal?
Arcane Shot? Multi-Shot? Deadly Shot? Kill Command? Eaglehorn Bow? Am I just stupid in thinking that these are fairly solid removal cards?
I looked at this card originally and I thought, you know, it's a card, and you play this card. The card will be that card that you play so you're playing a card. So, it is one thing to play a card. If you're opponent doesn't really have any cards, the card will screw up the card pretty hard, and that means it's a pretty good card.
Wow, dude, you are so convoluted. You don't know the first thing about design.
Please stop talking from an utter lack of knowledge or experience. You are ruining good discussion with your nonsense
Fact is, Bestial Wrath isn't the worst. It's design is slightly flawed in how you need to have stuff on board and be in range to kill with the creature.
Lorewalker so much fun in Zoo and was designed as such. It's a fun card that is limited in it's advantageous usage. Design the deck around it and stun opponents with it.
Snipe requires the opponent to gift play you the card you can/want to kill.
Gladiator's is too slow for 7 mana.
Ice barrier is a card that they wanted to exist.
Arcane Shot isn't as good as something like frostbolt/wrath.
Deadly Shot is a bit silly for early game removal. Definitely good against midrange though.
Kill Command isn't very impressive. 3 dmg for 3 is bad, and 5 dmg isn't something useful or obtainable in the early game. Also good against midrange.
Eaglehorn Bow makes you take damage for clearing minions, and provides no health. Hunter has no good ways to gain health back.
Multi-Shot is a bit too situational, just like cleave or forked lightning.
Other control decks also compliment good removal with a couple good early game minions like armorsmith, and hunter's only good option to fit this role is river crocalisk.
Contrast this with a class like druid that has:
Claw, which can let you kill a turn 1 flame imp or on turn 3 can kill something with 3 hp. Claw even gives you 2 armor!
Wrath is a nice way to deal 3 dmg for 2 mana, and if you're staring down some x/1 that you don't want to hit with your face you can even draw a card!
Keeper of the grove which you can innervate into to kill a 2 drop, or just a nice 2 dmg on turn 4. 2/4's are also tough to deal with.
Or contrast it with a class like warrior which gains large quantity's of armor.
Don't get me wrong, control hunter would SMASH midrange decks but would get equally SMASHED by rushes.
Misdirection is resurging in popularity. I don't know why you would ever use Spellbender when you have Counterspell. Sure, there's the occasional times where someone will BoK your Spellbender, but otherwise it's just tempo loss.
Eye for an Eye wouldn't be bad if it weren't for the fact that the solution to the most common Paladin secrets is "Attack with your weakest minion first", in which case it usually ends up doing 1 damage or so to your opponent.
Yes ice block is the ultimate troll. You never know what it is until you've done everything! (or proc'd the ice block)
Snipe isn't bad in a lot of other MUs too. Kills Azure Drakes and makes Fire Elementals doggie bait, puts Giants in a much more non-Hunter's Mark kill range and it can actually be okay vs. Zoo if you're also packing Explosive Trap. I will admit it is probably much more of a tournament pick, though.