Raffam 4w-3L, Kel 8W-1L (partly due to auto concedes cus idiots listen to other idiots in this thread)
Kel is definetly stronger then Raff but totally beatable with a little RNG. That being said I like the fact that Kel is stronger goes along with WOW lore common guys one of the main evils in WC3 cant be weaker than some thief. Although i must admit Raff is a lot more fun! like the challenge. Good break from the stale rank.
Of course that whole line of play fails miserably if your opponent turns your first Heigan the Unclean into a Pit Snake.
Pretty much just did this with Gothik the Harvester Other player made it a game though, got his staff super early, got a Tirion Fordring, kept board control, and was doing his damnedest to clear out all the Spectral Gothik's I was sending over. He actually got me down to mid 20s before he lost his Taunt minion and had to concede. Summoning 3 Gothik's in one turn is just crazy OP.
The results of this brawl hinge on Kel's hero power, and the player who is consciously manipulating the odds to summon better random minions is the player who will probably win.
For example, you can kill Gluth's minions instead of killing Gluth, so the list of dead minions gets jammed full of Zombie Chows and Crazed Alchemists. If you're KT, you can just not summon your Haunted Creepers, since they have minimal board impact and put three terrible minions on the waiting list.
The only games I've lost as Rafaam are the first two, where I was foolishly murdering a bunch of Sapphirons and Heigans, ensuring that every use of Kel'Thuzad's hero power would wreck me. But since I started preserving my board clears and treating the kill list with respect, I've won every game.
(I mean, obviously I've gotten a little lucky, but it's not as unbalanced as people are saying, not by a long shot.)
There seems to be some sort of cheat programmed into Rafaam's card draw, so you can always upgrade your staff fully within the first 10 turns or so. I always draw two upgrade spells before the game is decided, and never more than that. Either the spells still in your deck get replaced with something else after you see two of them, or you automatically draw two of them before a certain number of turns have passed.
That's how I've generally found it to be. If you can abuse Necromancy early on, you can always win. However, late game, a board wipe by Rafaam will almost always result in a Kel'Thuzad loss. Kel'Thuzad's hero power doesn't translate well into end game, where you have less and less control over what gets summoned. However, Staff of Origination is super powerful the more it gets used.
I don't think this match up is unbalanced, the two hero's just have very different play styles.
KT is very strat focused. His hero power could suck if you put the wrong minions in your graveyard. Hold off on playing any creepers or mad scientists...Having a fast drop is useless if it kills your power. Let yourself get faced for the first few rounds if necessary, Get to the valuable 3 and 4 drops, and then just resurrect them and highers.
Raf on the other hand relies on RNGesus to the furthest extent of the law. Use your hero power early and use your hero power often. Hope for the power upgrades in the early game. Just based on the decks KT has a better deck, but Raf's hero power has a larger delta of random chance...An early deathwing, nefarian, tirion, Gahzz'rah, could end the game pretty quick.
I just don't summon any normal minions lol. Mind you I had 5 Heigs even after the board clear. Reincarnation is a bitch. I've had Raf Games were I destroyed Kel bc of Haunted creeper summons. The patient ones? Not so much
I just played Heig and spammed with Reincarnation and Kels Hero Power. I didn't summon anything else. Kels power is too strong lol
Only against poor opponents.
Better Raf players will counter this by mulliganing hard for transform effects, filling your graveyard with garbage & relegating Kel's hero power to the same sort of rng lottery as Raf's.
Once Kel's graveyard becomes polluted with bad cards, Raf gains the upper hand.
Though Kel can still win by flooding the board, if Raf doesn't draw into his board clears.
It's a good brawl, in that it separates poor & competent players, but once both players understand the optimal strategy, it's just an RNG-fest.
I just played Heig and spammed with Reincarnation and Kels Hero Power. I didn't summon anything else. Kels power is too strong lol
Only against poor opponents.
Better Raf players will counter this by mulliganing hard for transform effects, filling your graveyard with garbage & relegating Kel's hero power to the same sort of rng lottery as Raf's.
Once Kel's graveyard becomes polluted with bad cards, Raf gains the upper hand.
Though Kel can still win by flooding the board, if Raf doesn't draw into his board clears.
It's a good brawl, in that it separates poor & competent players, but once both players understand the optimal strategy, it's just an RNG-fest.
I can agree with that, it's like Face Hunter/Tempo Mage vs Handlock, Kel is much more aggressive and puts on pressure but Raf controls and those board clears are indeed scary. Rag and Nef all over again. Now I wish we have a tavern brawl where we can play as any of the bosses. I love these pre made deck games :)
Of course that whole line of play fails miserably if your opponent turns your first Heigan the Unclean into a Pit Snake.
I just did both in back to back games!!, first game had KT and turned the board into a dance floor with Heigan. Secoond Game i was Rafaam and managed to discover my opponent was using that super cheap tactic, so i turned Heigan into a pit snake and made him duplicate the snake...he isnta conceded!
Went 5-0 today. It's a fun brawl. 3 raff wins and 2 KT. I'm pretty happy with the balance of this. The one KT card I think is over the top is Razzuvios (however it's spelled). He's like a double pyroblast with a body for 8 mana. Ouch.
Wasn't it the same thing when we had rag and nef? Everybody said nef was way op, then people started to figure out how to play rag.
Fun brawl,
Raffam 4w-3L, Kel 8W-1L (partly due to auto concedes cus idiots listen to other idiots in this thread)
Kel is definetly stronger then Raff but totally beatable with a little RNG. That being said I like the fact that Kel is stronger goes along with WOW lore common guys one of the main evils in WC3 cant be weaker than some thief. Although i must admit Raff is a lot more fun! like the challenge. Good break from the stale rank.
Vs the optimal player, the game comes down to whether rafaam has a transform-based answer to kel thuzad's 5+ threat.
If they do, rafaam wins 80% of the time.
If they don't, kel wins 99% of the time.
Interesting brawl, but the solution is rather obvious after no more than 2 games.
Pretty much just did this with Gothik the Harvester Other player made it a game though, got his staff super early, got a Tirion Fordring, kept board control, and was doing his damnedest to clear out all the Spectral Gothik's I was sending over. He actually got me down to mid 20s before he lost his Taunt minion and had to concede. Summoning 3 Gothik's in one turn is just crazy OP.
The results of this brawl hinge on Kel's hero power, and the player who is consciously manipulating the odds to summon better random minions is the player who will probably win.
For example, you can kill Gluth's minions instead of killing Gluth, so the list of dead minions gets jammed full of Zombie Chows and Crazed Alchemists. If you're KT, you can just not summon your Haunted Creepers, since they have minimal board impact and put three terrible minions on the waiting list.
The only games I've lost as Rafaam are the first two, where I was foolishly murdering a bunch of Sapphirons and Heigans, ensuring that every use of Kel'Thuzad's hero power would wreck me. But since I started preserving my board clears and treating the kill list with respect, I've won every game.
(I mean, obviously I've gotten a little lucky, but it's not as unbalanced as people are saying, not by a long shot.)
If you get Raaffam you're basically hosed.
There seems to be some sort of cheat programmed into Rafaam's card draw, so you can always upgrade your staff fully within the first 10 turns or so. I always draw two upgrade spells before the game is decided, and never more than that. Either the spells still in your deck get replaced with something else after you see two of them, or you automatically draw two of them before a certain number of turns have passed.
I got Raf 15 times in a row wow thanks Blizzard.
I don't think this match up is unbalanced, the two hero's just have very different play styles.
KT is very strat focused. His hero power could suck if you put the wrong minions in your graveyard. Hold off on playing any creepers or mad scientists...Having a fast drop is useless if it kills your power. Let yourself get faced for the first few rounds if necessary, Get to the valuable 3 and 4 drops, and then just resurrect them and highers.
Raf on the other hand relies on RNGesus to the furthest extent of the law. Use your hero power early and use your hero power often. Hope for the power upgrades in the early game. Just based on the decks KT has a better deck, but Raf's hero power has a larger delta of random chance...An early deathwing, nefarian, tirion, Gahzz'rah, could end the game pretty quick.
I just played Heig and spammed with Reincarnation and Kels Hero Power. I didn't summon anything else. Kels power is too strong lol
I just don't summon any normal minions lol. Mind you I had 5 Heigs even after the board clear. Reincarnation is a bitch. I've had Raf Games were I destroyed Kel bc of Haunted creeper summons. The patient ones? Not so much
gg blizz
Secoond Game i was Rafaam and managed to discover my opponent was using that super cheap tactic, so i turned Heigan into a pit snake and made him duplicate the snake...he isnta conceded!
Another stupid brawl with the "Ben Brode Special" - uneven hero powers/decks. F... this crap!
Went 5-0 today. It's a fun brawl. 3 raff wins and 2 KT. I'm pretty happy with the balance of this. The one KT card I think is over the top is Razzuvios (however it's spelled). He's like a double pyroblast with a body for 8 mana. Ouch.
Did anyone publish the decklists yet?
Arena Leaderboard EU - September 2018: #47 (@7.77 Wins Average)