Discuss your concerns, complaints, observations and musings about the design of Battlegrounds' Heroes here.
PART ONE: Cool Ideas That Would Introduce New Builds
1. Current — Millificent Manastorm's hero power is "Passive - Mechs in Bob's Tavern have +1/+1."
My suggestion — replace with Gearmaster Mechazod, whose Hero Power is "1 Gold: Transform a non-Mech in Bob's Tavern into a Mech. Mechs in Bob's Tavern have +1/+1." (This would allow you to, for example, have a Monstrous Macaw "cured" of the "Curse of the Flesh" trigger Omega Buster and benefit from its effect. However, that "Macaw" would be a Mech and not a Beast, so it couldn't be Leapfrogged onto.)
2. Pyramad. This is currently the dead last ranked hero according to HSReplay. So I say redesign it completely. ;-)
My Suggestion — "1 Gold: Give a friendly minion Taunt. Your minions with Taunt have +1/+1." (This would make Pyramad very good at controlling the order of combat, or getting the whole team buffed with Strongshell Scavenger at Tier 5.)
3. Current — Galakrond "1 Gold: Choose a minion in Bob's Tavern. Discover a higher Tier minion to replace it."
My suggestion — "1 Gold: Choose a minion in Bob's Tavern. Discover a higher Tier minion to replace it. Freeze that minion." (Currently, Galakrond is only good when buying the resulting minion immediately, or ditching it, usually at higher Tiers. This would allow more of the oddball meme play in the early tiers. Don't let your memes be dreams.)
4. Current — Infinite Toki: "1 Gold: Refresh Bob's Tavern. Include a minion from a higher Tavern Tier."
My Suggestion — Infinite Toki: "Passive: The second time Bob's Tavern is Refreshed each turn, add a minion from a higher Tier." (This rewording introduces a subtle synergy with Elementals such as Refreshing Anomaly, as well as adding instead of including.)
PART TWO: Relatively Boring Cleanup Stuffs
5. There are several heroes with the same basic problem. Their Powers are strong early — sometimes too strong — but quickly become useless or at least underpowered. Here's the list: Deathwing, Illidan Stormrage, Kael'thas Sunstrider, Sindragosa, The Rat King, and Yogg-Saron.
My Suggestion — In each case, replace the +x/+x or (+x Attack, for the first two) amount with "stats equal to your Tavern Tier" (or "Attack equal to your Tavern Tier," for the first two). Although I would completely reword the Rat King to "Passive: Beasts in Bob's Tavern gain stats equal to your Tavern Tier. Swaps type each turn." This would make the Rat King the Bat King as well, meaning the Famished Fel variety. Speaking of rats with wings, I'd also reword Sindragosa to "Frozen minions gain stats equal to your Tavern Tier BETWEEN turns." Just for clarity.
6. Similarly to #5...
Current — The Curator: "Passive: Start the game with a 2/2 Amalgam with all minion types."
My Suggestion — The Curator: "Passive: Start with a 1/1 Amalgam with all minion types that Adapts when you upgrade Bob's Tavern." (This would make Curator a bit less obnoxious Turn 1 but buff Curator performance overall. Unlike Amalgadon, you would Discover the Adapt when upgrading your Tavern Tier.)
7. There are some heroes whose abilities are overcosted. Here's the list: Tess Greymane (current cost 1 Gold), Zephrys the Great (current cost 3 Gold), and Lich Baz'hial (current cost 2 Health).
My Suggestion — Reduce all costs by 1. (Tess's ability at 0 Cost would be essentially on par with Nozdormu, who isn't even that strong.)
8. Lastly, two heroes' Powers are currently too random: Patches the Pirate and Captain Eudora.
My Suggestion — Make both specify "from your Tavern Tier." (Maybe with this change HSReplay won't list Patches' best composition as Elementals, as it does currently.)
Such a fine line when you're dealing with small integers. We saw this with Elise, basically going from meh to T1 and back again when they changed the HP cost. Definitely easier to deal with stat changes (I love the Curator idea).
Patches change would be interesting and probably not too oppressive with Pirates in their current state (though the ability to 50/50 for Eliza at T6 would be pretty nuts). Compromise: make it a discover but with just a two minion pool to add a little more control.
Tess is a tricky one too because of how affected she is by the meta. Pre-nerf I think 0 cost HP would have been too much given that everybody was going for the same two comps. Basically would have been a guaranteed golden leapfrogger by 8 or 9 mana every game. Maybe with more build diversity and less powerful T2/T3 minions right now it'd be OK. Could also go the stat route, though, with something like "refresh with your opponent's last warband and give them +1/+1".
Tess is a tricky one too because of how affected she is by the meta. Pre-nerf I think 0 cost HP would have been too much given that everybody was going for the same two comps. Basically would have been a guaranteed golden leapfrogger by 8 or 9 mana every game. Maybe with more build diversity and less powerful T2/T3 minions right now it'd be OK. Could also go the stat route, though, with something like "refresh with your opponent's last warband and give them +1/+1".
You're assuming she should be balanced around this, and you actually have it backwards: she should be imbalanced around this. Tess's hero power is obviously meta dependent, to the point that if you understand her hero power and think she's good, you're making a statement about the metagame. If you think Tess is the best hero, good enough to select whenever you get the choice, you're saying with your actions that build diversity in Battlegrounds is dead (or close to it) and that everyone should be basically going for the same one or two comps. As it just so happens, that's exactly the situation, according to you! So in the context of this meta, Tess shouldn't be balanced around being Tier 4 like she is now according to statistics from HSReplay. She should be balanced around the idea that she should be Tier 1 in a meta like this. Right now, her hero power should be and feel AMAZING, because if the meta had more build diversity Tess would be weaker.
Feels like there could be balance issues with mechazod as written, though at 1 mana maybe not. Feels dangerous, though. Magnetizing onto otherwise-random tribes? I guess there's not that much that'd be broken with it, since it'd not change references to tribes or the tribe of tokens generated. Might purely be used for parrot (who I still hold is unhealthy for the mode).
Didn't Toki used to add instead of include? I'd just remove that nerf, tbh. Second refresh is reasonable, though, too.
Sindragosa rewrite with between turns probably would actually go twice, since your turn is recruit and the opp's turn is fighting, I think. Don't think it needs clarifying, but 'at the end of the reruit phase' works, too.
I'm a sucker for APM pirates so regarding Patches... I know he's pretty random, the difference between the high and low roll with hero power is massive but I suspect that giving him tiered pirates would push him over the top with people who know what they are doing, might be safer to just give him a random pirate with +1/+1 or something... Without patches in the game you could go several games without even seeing anyone attempt a normal pirate build, excluding the the baron/khadgar stuff.
Feels like there could be balance issues with mechazod as written, though at 1 mana maybe not. Feels dangerous, though. Magnetizing onto otherwise-random tribes? I guess there's not that much that'd be broken with it, since it'd not change references to tribes or the tribe of tokens generated. Might purely be used for parrot (who I still hold is unhealthy for the mode).
When Quillboar are in, I always pick George the Fallen so I can go Menagerie with Gemsplitter and Aggem Thorncurse. If there's no Mechs, all the better, because no one else is going for the Gemsplitters and I'll gold one up in no time.
It's okay for heroes to have their own specific and situationally powerful builds. If George can give a Gemsplitter Divine Shield without the world collapsing, another hero could magnetic an Annoy-o-Module onto a Maexna.
Such a fine line when you're dealing with small integers. We saw this with Elise, basically going from meh to T1 and back again when they changed the HP cost. Definitely easier to deal with stat changes (I love the Curator idea).
Patches change would be interesting and probably not too oppressive with Pirates in their current state (though the ability to 50/50 for Eliza at T6 would be pretty nuts). Compromise: make it a discover but with just a two minion pool to add a little more control.
Sorry, I don't know why I didn't address these earlier.
There are three tier 6 Pirates, not two. Although I guess it can be easy to forget Amalgadon. If it's a one in three, I think that's not too crazy — do you? That's a good idea for how to fix it, although Patches is so weak I think a three card Discover would be better.
I find Curator just useless if game doesn't have mechs + murlocs to "fix" it.
You can at most taunt it with houndmaster which is nothing special when argus exists, it just swallows some raw buffs from cup or jug and that's it. It ends up being irrelevant mid game, even if you find early lightfang you're better off selling it for a minion with actual skill.
Maybe make his hero power two-piece like Syndragosa:
(1) : Adapt your Amalgam. Start the game with 1/1 Amalgam with all minion types.
You'd be presented with 3 options but they'd be weighted so plants are more rare after first pick (so you don't end up with x3 plant summon every game) and poison wouldn't appear at all until you reach tier 4 or even 5.
Current: Freeze a minion in Bob's Tavern. Frozen minions get +2/+1 each turn.
Suggestion: Freeze a minion in Bob's Tavern. Frozen minions get +2/+1 each turn. You can use this an unlimited number of times per turn.
This would not significantly change the hero but will further lean into the secondary advantage of only freezing the minions you want and refresh the rest. It would make just a little more useful late game when the stat boost becomes less relevant.
If you want to take it a step further I'd propose that the tavern refresh not touch frozen minions. Only those minions not locked or frozen refresh.
I find Curator just useless if game doesn't have mechs + murlocs to "fix" it.
You can at most taunt it with houndmaster which is nothing special when argus exists, it just swallows some raw buffs from cup or jug and that's it. It ends up being irrelevant mid game, even if you find early lightfang you're better off selling it for a minion with actual skill.
Yes, that's why, once I thought of Adapt I changed the Curator to adapt instead of +1/+1. I originally had +1/+1 on the basis that Death Speaker Blackthorn is not an OP hero, and his power is similar to +2/+2 but can be a bit trickier. Curator is stronger early due to the Amalgam making turn 1+2 fights easier, so I went with +1/+1, but +1/+1 is one of the Adapts and that can also be a bit trickier so it's a good fit.
Maybe make his hero power two-piece like Syndragosa:
(1) : Adapt your Amalgam. Start the game with 1/1 Amalgam with all minion types.
You'd be presented with 3 options but they'd be weighted so plants are more rare after first pick (so you don't end up with x3 plant summon every game) and poison wouldn't appear at all until you reach tier 4 or even 5.
I think that would make Curator a weaker hero. It's important to remember that most hero powers that cost 1 either need to be really powerful (like Rafaam) or they get 1 or 2 uses prior to turn 7, at which point most players have already upgraded to Tier 4. So there's definitely an early game loss for your approach vs mine.
The advantage your design has is that the Curator is basically guaranteed to eventually get a Divine Shield Poisonous, although probably either after going to Tier 5 or delaying that upgrade a turn. But that's also paying big for that guarantee. I like the idea of getting either Divine Shield or Poisonous (one of those Menagerie skills you mentioned), probably not getting both but sometimes lucky, and a little under 20% of the time you swing and miss and sell the Amalgam, all without needing to sink Gold into the hero power.
The Mechazod idea is really interesting but idk how problematic that might be with poisonous stuff. It would give easy access to DS+poisonous, which we have seen before is kinda OP. I would love to see that hero buffed though. Really nice thread!
Current: Freeze a minion in Bob's Tavern. Frozen minions get +2/+1 each turn.
Suggestion: Freeze a minion in Bob's Tavern. Frozen minions get +2/+1 each turn. You can use this an unlimited number of times per turn.
This would not significantly change the hero but will further lean into the secondary advantage of only freezing the minions you want and refresh the rest. It would make just a little more useful late game when the stat boost becomes less relevant.
If you want to take it a step further I'd propose that the tavern refresh not touch frozen minions. Only those minions not locked or frozen refresh.
Honest question: does Sindragosa need any help? Certainly not T1, but she feels pretty good to me right now. The stats are nice early-and-mid game, and I think the targeted HP has some nice utility late game, even, allowing you to hold a minion and still reroll the rest. Certainly gets outpaced late in the game, but I get a lot of top fours with her.
Honest question: does Sindragosa need any help? Certainly not T1, but she feels pretty good to me right now. The stats are nice early-and-mid game, and I think the targeted HP has some nice utility late game, even, allowing you to hold a minion and still reroll the rest. Certainly gets outpaced late in the game, but I get a lot of top fours with her.
When one looks at thousands of games, from a statistical standpoint... well, not really, but she could use some. Sindragosa is a hero with slightly below average performance, with an average placement of 4.56th (average is 4.5th).
But I do think it'd be really COOL if her hero power continued to have some relevance at high tiers.
Discuss your concerns, complaints, observations and musings about the design of Battlegrounds' Heroes here.
PART ONE: Cool Ideas That Would Introduce New Builds
1. Current — Millificent Manastorm's hero power is "Passive - Mechs in Bob's Tavern have +1/+1."
My suggestion — replace with Gearmaster Mechazod, whose Hero Power is "1 Gold: Transform a non-Mech in Bob's Tavern into a Mech. Mechs in Bob's Tavern have +1/+1." (This would allow you to, for example, have a Monstrous Macaw "cured" of the "Curse of the Flesh" trigger Omega Buster and benefit from its effect. However, that "Macaw" would be a Mech and not a Beast, so it couldn't be Leapfrogged onto.)
2. Pyramad. This is currently the dead last ranked hero according to HSReplay. So I say redesign it completely. ;-)
My Suggestion — "1 Gold: Give a friendly minion Taunt. Your minions with Taunt have +1/+1." (This would make Pyramad very good at controlling the order of combat, or getting the whole team buffed with Strongshell Scavenger at Tier 5.)
3. Current — Galakrond "1 Gold: Choose a minion in Bob's Tavern. Discover a higher Tier minion to replace it."
My suggestion — "1 Gold: Choose a minion in Bob's Tavern. Discover a higher Tier minion to replace it. Freeze that minion." (Currently, Galakrond is only good when buying the resulting minion immediately, or ditching it, usually at higher Tiers. This would allow more of the oddball meme play in the early tiers. Don't let your memes be dreams.)
4. Current — Infinite Toki: "1 Gold: Refresh Bob's Tavern. Include a minion from a higher Tavern Tier."
My Suggestion — Infinite Toki: "Passive: The second time Bob's Tavern is Refreshed each turn, add a minion from a higher Tier." (This rewording introduces a subtle synergy with Elementals such as Refreshing Anomaly, as well as adding instead of including.)
PART TWO: Relatively Boring Cleanup Stuffs
5. There are several heroes with the same basic problem. Their Powers are strong early — sometimes too strong — but quickly become useless or at least underpowered. Here's the list: Deathwing, Illidan Stormrage, Kael'thas Sunstrider, Sindragosa, The Rat King, and Yogg-Saron.
My Suggestion — In each case, replace the +x/+x or (+x Attack, for the first two) amount with "stats equal to your Tavern Tier" (or "Attack equal to your Tavern Tier," for the first two). Although I would completely reword the Rat King to "Passive: Beasts in Bob's Tavern gain stats equal to your Tavern Tier. Swaps type each turn." This would make the Rat King the Bat King as well, meaning the Famished Fel variety. Speaking of rats with wings, I'd also reword Sindragosa to "Frozen minions gain stats equal to your Tavern Tier BETWEEN turns." Just for clarity.
6. Similarly to #5...
Current — The Curator: "Passive: Start the game with a 2/2 Amalgam with all minion types."
My Suggestion — The Curator: "Passive: Start with a 1/1 Amalgam with all minion types that Adapts when you upgrade Bob's Tavern." (This would make Curator a bit less obnoxious Turn 1 but buff Curator performance overall. Unlike Amalgadon, you would Discover the Adapt when upgrading your Tavern Tier.)
7. There are some heroes whose abilities are overcosted. Here's the list: Tess Greymane (current cost 1 Gold), Zephrys the Great (current cost 3 Gold), and Lich Baz'hial (current cost 2 Health).
My Suggestion — Reduce all costs by 1. (Tess's ability at 0 Cost would be essentially on par with Nozdormu, who isn't even that strong.)
8. Lastly, two heroes' Powers are currently too random: Patches the Pirate and Captain Eudora.
My Suggestion — Make both specify "from your Tavern Tier." (Maybe with this change HSReplay won't list Patches' best composition as Elementals, as it does currently.)
Such a fine line when you're dealing with small integers. We saw this with Elise, basically going from meh to T1 and back again when they changed the HP cost. Definitely easier to deal with stat changes (I love the Curator idea).
Patches change would be interesting and probably not too oppressive with Pirates in their current state (though the ability to 50/50 for Eliza at T6 would be pretty nuts). Compromise: make it a discover but with just a two minion pool to add a little more control.
Tess is a tricky one too because of how affected she is by the meta. Pre-nerf I think 0 cost HP would have been too much given that everybody was going for the same two comps. Basically would have been a guaranteed golden leapfrogger by 8 or 9 mana every game. Maybe with more build diversity and less powerful T2/T3 minions right now it'd be OK. Could also go the stat route, though, with something like "refresh with your opponent's last warband and give them +1/+1".
You're assuming she should be balanced around this, and you actually have it backwards: she should be imbalanced around this. Tess's hero power is obviously meta dependent, to the point that if you understand her hero power and think she's good, you're making a statement about the metagame. If you think Tess is the best hero, good enough to select whenever you get the choice, you're saying with your actions that build diversity in Battlegrounds is dead (or close to it) and that everyone should be basically going for the same one or two comps. As it just so happens, that's exactly the situation, according to you! So in the context of this meta, Tess shouldn't be balanced around being Tier 4 like she is now according to statistics from HSReplay. She should be balanced around the idea that she should be Tier 1 in a meta like this. Right now, her hero power should be and feel AMAZING, because if the meta had more build diversity Tess would be weaker.
Love this thread so far
Feels like there could be balance issues with mechazod as written, though at 1 mana maybe not. Feels dangerous, though. Magnetizing onto otherwise-random tribes? I guess there's not that much that'd be broken with it, since it'd not change references to tribes or the tribe of tokens generated. Might purely be used for parrot (who I still hold is unhealthy for the mode).
Didn't Toki used to add instead of include? I'd just remove that nerf, tbh. Second refresh is reasonable, though, too.
Sindragosa rewrite with between turns probably would actually go twice, since your turn is recruit and the opp's turn is fighting, I think. Don't think it needs clarifying, but 'at the end of the reruit phase' works, too.
I'm a sucker for APM pirates so regarding Patches... I know he's pretty random, the difference between the high and low roll with hero power is massive but I suspect that giving him tiered pirates would push him over the top with people who know what they are doing, might be safer to just give him a random pirate with +1/+1 or something... Without patches in the game you could go several games without even seeing anyone attempt a normal pirate build, excluding the the baron/khadgar stuff.
When Quillboar are in, I always pick George the Fallen so I can go Menagerie with Gemsplitter and Aggem Thorncurse. If there's no Mechs, all the better, because no one else is going for the Gemsplitters and I'll gold one up in no time.
It's okay for heroes to have their own specific and situationally powerful builds. If George can give a Gemsplitter Divine Shield without the world collapsing, another hero could magnetic an Annoy-o-Module onto a Maexna.
Sorry, I don't know why I didn't address these earlier.
There are three tier 6 Pirates, not two. Although I guess it can be easy to forget Amalgadon. If it's a one in three, I think that's not too crazy — do you? That's a good idea for how to fix it, although Patches is so weak I think a three card Discover would be better.
And thanks for liking the Curator idea. :-)
I find Curator just useless if game doesn't have mechs + murlocs to "fix" it.
You can at most taunt it with houndmaster which is nothing special when argus exists, it just swallows some raw buffs from cup or jug and that's it. It ends up being irrelevant mid game, even if you find early lightfang you're better off selling it for a minion with actual skill.
Maybe make his hero power two-piece like Syndragosa:
(1) : Adapt your Amalgam.
Start the game with 1/1 Amalgam with all minion types.
You'd be presented with 3 options but they'd be weighted so plants are more rare after first pick (so you don't end up with x3 plant summon every game) and poison wouldn't appear at all until you reach tier 4 or even 5.
Piloted Shredder, Knife Juggler, Mad Scientist, Dr. Boom
Need to be removed from this game
I would change Sindragosa.
Current: Freeze a minion in Bob's Tavern. Frozen minions get +2/+1 each turn.
Suggestion: Freeze a minion in Bob's Tavern. Frozen minions get +2/+1 each turn. You can use this an unlimited number of times per turn.
This would not significantly change the hero but will further lean into the secondary advantage of only freezing the minions you want and refresh the rest. It would make just a little more useful late game when the stat boost becomes less relevant.
If you want to take it a step further I'd propose that the tavern refresh not touch frozen minions. Only those minions not locked or frozen refresh.
Yes, that's why, once I thought of Adapt I changed the Curator to adapt instead of +1/+1. I originally had +1/+1 on the basis that Death Speaker Blackthorn is not an OP hero, and his power is similar to +2/+2 but can be a bit trickier. Curator is stronger early due to the Amalgam making turn 1+2 fights easier, so I went with +1/+1, but +1/+1 is one of the Adapts and that can also be a bit trickier so it's a good fit.
I think that would make Curator a weaker hero. It's important to remember that most hero powers that cost 1 either need to be really powerful (like Rafaam) or they get 1 or 2 uses prior to turn 7, at which point most players have already upgraded to Tier 4. So there's definitely an early game loss for your approach vs mine.
The advantage your design has is that the Curator is basically guaranteed to eventually get a Divine Shield Poisonous, although probably either after going to Tier 5 or delaying that upgrade a turn. But that's also paying big for that guarantee. I like the idea of getting either Divine Shield or Poisonous (one of those Menagerie skills you mentioned), probably not getting both but sometimes lucky, and a little under 20% of the time you swing and miss and sell the Amalgam, all without needing to sink Gold into the hero power.
The Mechazod idea is really interesting but idk how problematic that might be with poisonous stuff. It would give easy access to DS+poisonous, which we have seen before is kinda OP. I would love to see that hero buffed though. Really nice thread!
Honest question: does Sindragosa need any help? Certainly not T1, but she feels pretty good to me right now. The stats are nice early-and-mid game, and I think the targeted HP has some nice utility late game, even, allowing you to hold a minion and still reroll the rest. Certainly gets outpaced late in the game, but I get a lot of top fours with her.
That's a fair point. I do like to use her and get top 4 often, just wish I could get 1st with her more. But she's certainly not hurting.
When one looks at thousands of games, from a statistical standpoint... well, not really, but she could use some. Sindragosa is a hero with slightly below average performance, with an average placement of 4.56th (average is 4.5th).
But I do think it'd be really COOL if her hero power continued to have some relevance at high tiers.