You can pretty much consistently get at least two pogo's in a run and once you've got those it's almost guaranteed top 4. Only one is really needed to level up whilst retaining an ok board.
The mechanics of the hero is cool just the minions retaining their buffs is the issue.
Consistently get two pogos in a run is not what you have to do. You need to get consistently get two pogos early, if you don’t get a pogo and start swapping by turn 4 you’re simply not scaling enough. There are plenty of games where you don’t see a single pogo and she is also an available choice when mechs are not available,
The mechanics of the hero is cool just the minions retaining their buffs is the issue.
Its not really minions retaining buffs being the problem...its just the pogos with her since they are the only ones that can scale like they do...i mean without pogos only thing that come close is Momma Bear and Amalgadon
Personally there are 3 things they can do so Jandice can be "good" but not broken
1. Pogo nerfed to t3 would slow it down but allow it to be a meme build still
2. Remove Pogo....was kinda a meme build anyway
3. Make her hero power 1 coin...but i think that would nerf her too hard
1 Pogo is all you need to cruise through these early rounds. Later you can easily transition to murlocs if you want and all you need is 1 toxfin and after 3-4 rounds they all have poisonous. So many strong options and so many alternative strategies that are a guaranteed top4 at least.
What they do will be interesting. Since this isn't really an "emergency" I would expect it to take a month or so. It's not as bad as the pure cancer that was broken Millhouse.
I would prefer they not remove Pogos, I won a game just today where I was Lich King and kept getting damn Pogos in the Tavern in the early game and I was upset but forced to take them and was stuck with 2 of them for a few turns and was losing like hell. Then I tripled into Brann and found about 3 pogos in the next 2 turns and came back and won the game with 3 health. There have also been a few "fun" Shudderwock games with pogos that I probably ultimately lost, but pogos are at least interesting.
I just don’t see how a 12.8% to find a pogo is broken. The odds to find two are even less. This just leads to people fishing for pogos. Every game today with baron she has either exited early at a low tier digging for pogos, or won with pogos. It’s not reliable, you need to hit a pogo by turn 4 to even scale mildly.
IF
Blizz removes pogos it will be to try to get people to pick her regardless of mech availability not because pogos are OP.
I just don’t see how a 12.8% to find a pogo is broken.
I just won a game with Janice where I had 1 pogo through 10 turns. It ended the game as a 139/139. It was not golden. I did have a 2nd pogo that I found real late and it was 39/39.
I was undefeated after finding the pogo until the final opponent edged me once before losing to me the next 3 times. I had a golden goldgrubber at the end and he was a measly 42/42 and not much of a factor against the Goldrinn beast build that my final opponent had --- it was a total pogo carry.
So, that's what can be done with 1 non-golden pogo -- a 139/139. It got that large because I swapped it first thing every turn before doing anything else, and I would assume all the higher MMR players would do that as well.
I just don’t see how a 12.8% to find a pogo is broken. The odds to find two are even less. This just leads to people fishing for pogos. Every game today with baron she has either exited early at a low tier digging for pogos, or won with pogos. It’s not reliable, you need to hit a pogo by turn 4 to even scale mildly.
IF
Blizz removes pogos it will be to try to get people to pick her regardless of mech availability not because pogos are OP.
Jandice is currently statistically the best hero on HSreplay.
Pogo's are currently statistically the best comp on HSreplay.
It is clearly reliable enough to be a consistent strategy.
Pogo's standalone aren't the issue it's a minion retaining their buffs, pogo's just scale the best and are reliable to pick up.
I just don’t see how a 12.8% to find a pogo is broken. The odds to find two are even less. This just leads to people fishing for pogos. Every game today with baron she has either exited early at a low tier digging for pogos, or won with pogos. It’s not reliable, you need to hit a pogo by turn 4 to even scale mildly.
IF
Blizz removes pogos it will be to try to get people to pick her regardless of mech availability not because pogos are OP.
Jandice is currently statistically the best hero on HSreplay.
Pogo's are currently statistically the best comp on HSreplay.
It is clearly reliable enough to be a consistent strategy.
Pogo's standalone aren't the issue it's a minion retaining their buffs, pogo's just scale the best and are reliable to pick up.
HSReplay compares the comps in a vacuum. If you get it that comp, sure its the bet one to get. Im not arguing that. Im simply saying its 12.8% to see a single pogo on turn 2. If you dont see a pogo until turn 7 likely you have lost or it wont matter because you can only buff it maybe 5 times. But Sure once you get 100/100 pogos you win. This is not a surprise.
When a Barov player DOESNT complete a pogo comp. IE they only get 1 pogo then hsreplay doesn't detect it as a POGO HOPPER comp. So the pogo hopper comp is inflated. Just like it doesn't detect any of the other comps. Looks how low the popularity is of the other configs. IMG why wouldn't someone want dragons!!!!
The numbers are low because people are either getting pogos or losing and making no discernable comp. when you go digging for pogos for 5 turns and lose before getting ANY recognizable comp it isn't counted against the pogo hopper comp win rate.
Its roughly 12% to get a pogo each roll right with nothing removed from the pool? That increases as players pick up other minions especially as pogo's are pretty uncontested. One pogo is enough to carry from the early to late game. It doesn't have an especially high impact on the play style of the hero as you just play it like a normal hero.
Pogos being currently the statistical best is due to Barov. You're correct that the popularity being so low highlights that it is only viable in a specific circumstance, having Jandice predominantly. There other heroes Bran, Shudder and Arianna that also contribute to pogos win percent.
To believe that pogo's combined with Jandice does not reliably offer a strong chance at top 4 just doesn't stack up with the facts or probability.
To believe that pogo's combined with Jandice does not reliably offer a strong chance at top 4 just doesn't stack up with the facts or probability.
Great summation....NOT WHAT IM SAYING. I Agree Jandice +POGOS is strong. When you get Pogo's, EARLY, she's strong. My contention is when you dont shes weak and there is NOT ENOUGH DATA YET to make have an accurate opinion on if this is balanced.
The hysterics here are almost comical. something comes out and 3 days later people are screaming and crying for a nerf. Can we wait a bit for more data? or should we just be slamming guardrail to guardrail here?
I honeslty dont know what you want. Ive clearly stated my point several times because people continue to misrepresent my point. If you dont understand what ive said please feel free to go back and read what i wrote.
There is not enough data yet on barov and pogos. I dont see how a 12.8% chance to find a minion is broken.
We will see when we get more data. Until then anything else is hysterics .
I have learned if you are Jandice and have a Brann, cling to your "Discover A Murloc" dude for dear life and never let him go.
The Tavern is so dodgy and you think if you are Tier 5 that you'll find at least one crappy a Murloc buff in 10 Tavern refreshes, but even if no one is going Murlocs you can have 2 turns in a row with 10 refreshes and strike out all 20 times while also not seeing any other useful minions at all.
You don't seem to want to look at/accept the data from HSreplay, 3.3million matches from this patch. Jandice has actually gradually decreased in average ranking across this time. So you're right in that the initial games from the start of the patch may be hiding an even better win rate.
Pogos are common enough that after 4 rolls at 12.8% there's a 50% chance you have seen one. In actual fact this is probably slightly better as pogo's not really contested and other minions will be removed from the pool. That's pretty consistent to me.
I'm sure that in a couple of weeks once the hysterics have subsided that you'll be admitting a misjudgment regarding this hero, we'll just have to wait until then.
It is simple, you get a single Pogo early on, and you are pretty much set for a top 4 finish. You get 2 pogos early and you are going to roflstomp your way to a top 2 finish, most likely winning the lobby. It would take some god tier comps in order to beat early Pogo Jandice. But then, there are the games where Pogos are nowhere to be found, and then you are going to be very sad.
How about a different frame. Suppose there was a Tavern 2 minion that Reno could get, and almost surely win if he Hero Powers it immediately. Instant Tavern 2 Goldgrubber on Turn 3 might kinda be that.
I think that'd be bad, not because it'd be too strong or the balance would be off. I think it'd be structurally bad, rather than a statistical problem. A highroll into an almost certain win on turn 3 or 4, IMO, is just bad. Folks shouldn't be able to highroll into a win that early. That seems to me like the problem with Jandice Pogos. It's structural, and this much of a highroll shouldn't be possible this early.
Like, if Pogo was a Tavern 3 or 4 minion that scaled faster, leading to the same giant mechs in the end? Probably less of a problem.
How about a different frame. Suppose there was a Tavern 2 minion that Reno could get, and almost surely win if he Hero Powers it immediately. Instant Tavern 2 Goldgrubber on Turn 3 might kinda be that.
I think that'd be bad, not because it'd be too strong or the balance would be off. I think it'd be structurally bad, rather than a statistical problem. A highroll into an almost certain win on turn 3 or 4, IMO, is just bad. Folks shouldn't be able to highroll into a win that early. That seems to me like the problem with Jandice Pogos. It's structural, and this much of a highroll shouldn't be possible this early.
Like, if Pogo was a Tavern 3 or 4 minion that scaled faster, leading to the same giant mechs in the end? Probably less of a problem.
That’s a fair take on it. Playing Against Baron when she gets an early pogo feels bad, just like when a shifter yields an early 6 drop or any other early high roll. No arguments there that’s an entirely fair and nuanced sentiment considering how early after the patch we are.
I had a look on HSreplay and pogo's is pretty much top except for 3-5 mama bear and 6-7 kaly. I'd assume pogo is there solely due to Jandice playing one every turn once she gets one.
So it's basically like getting like a bran/lightfang/mama bear etc.
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You can pretty much consistently get at least two pogo's in a run and once you've got those it's almost guaranteed top 4. Only one is really needed to level up whilst retaining an ok board.
The mechanics of the hero is cool just the minions retaining their buffs is the issue.
Consistently get two pogos in a run is not what you have to do. You need to get consistently get two pogos early, if you don’t get a pogo and start swapping by turn 4 you’re simply not scaling enough. There are plenty of games where you don’t see a single pogo and she is also an available choice when mechs are not available,
Its not really minions retaining buffs being the problem...its just the pogos with her since they are the only ones that can scale like they do...i mean without pogos only thing that come close is Momma Bear and Amalgadon
Personally there are 3 things they can do so Jandice can be "good" but not broken
1. Pogo nerfed to t3 would slow it down but allow it to be a meme build still
2. Remove Pogo....was kinda a meme build anyway
3. Make her hero power 1 coin...but i think that would nerf her too hard
1 Pogo is all you need to cruise through these early rounds. Later you can easily transition to murlocs if you want and all you need is 1 toxfin and after 3-4 rounds they all have poisonous. So many strong options and so many alternative strategies that are a guaranteed top4 at least.
Jandice is the highest ranked hero on hsreplay, I feel as if you've misjudged this heros power level.
Not getting pogos in one run doesn't make this a weak hero as it's consistent enough that you will see a few more often than not.
It's definitely a weaker hero power when there aren't mechs but the issue is when there are mechs available.
Anything that lets bad players easily win a game with 30 IQ play always gets nerfed.
Broken Hooktusk, broken Euroda, broken Millhouse, broken Tirion, broken Deathwing.
What they do will be interesting. Since this isn't really an "emergency" I would expect it to take a month or so. It's not as bad as the pure cancer that was broken Millhouse.
I would prefer they not remove Pogos, I won a game just today where I was Lich King and kept getting damn Pogos in the Tavern in the early game and I was upset but forced to take them and was stuck with 2 of them for a few turns and was losing like hell. Then I tripled into Brann and found about 3 pogos in the next 2 turns and came back and won the game with 3 health. There have also been a few "fun" Shudderwock games with pogos that I probably ultimately lost, but pogos are at least interesting.
I just don’t see how a 12.8% to find a pogo is broken. The odds to find two are even less. This just leads to people fishing for pogos. Every game today with baron she has either exited early at a low tier digging for pogos, or won with pogos. It’s not reliable, you need to hit a pogo by turn 4 to even scale mildly.
IF
Blizz removes pogos it will be to try to get people to pick her regardless of mech availability not because pogos are OP.
I just won a game with Janice where I had 1 pogo through 10 turns. It ended the game as a 139/139. It was not golden. I did have a 2nd pogo that I found real late and it was 39/39.
I was undefeated after finding the pogo until the final opponent edged me once before losing to me the next 3 times. I had a golden goldgrubber at the end and he was a measly 42/42 and not much of a factor against the Goldrinn beast build that my final opponent had --- it was a total pogo carry.
So, that's what can be done with 1 non-golden pogo -- a 139/139. It got that large because I swapped it first thing every turn before doing anything else, and I would assume all the higher MMR players would do that as well.
Jandice is currently statistically the best hero on HSreplay.
Pogo's are currently statistically the best comp on HSreplay.
It is clearly reliable enough to be a consistent strategy.
Pogo's standalone aren't the issue it's a minion retaining their buffs, pogo's just scale the best and are reliable to pick up.
HSReplay compares the comps in a vacuum. If you get it that comp, sure its the bet one to get. Im not arguing that. Im simply saying its 12.8% to see a single pogo on turn 2. If you dont see a pogo until turn 7 likely you have lost or it wont matter because you can only buff it maybe 5 times. But Sure once you get 100/100 pogos you win. This is not a surprise.
When a Barov player DOESNT complete a pogo comp. IE they only get 1 pogo then hsreplay doesn't detect it as a POGO HOPPER comp. So the pogo hopper comp is inflated. Just like it doesn't detect any of the other comps. Looks how low the popularity is of the other configs. IMG why wouldn't someone want dragons!!!!
The numbers are low because people are either getting pogos or losing and making no discernable comp. when you go digging for pogos for 5 turns and lose before getting ANY recognizable comp it isn't counted against the pogo hopper comp win rate.
Its roughly 12% to get a pogo each roll right with nothing removed from the pool? That increases as players pick up other minions especially as pogo's are pretty uncontested. One pogo is enough to carry from the early to late game. It doesn't have an especially high impact on the play style of the hero as you just play it like a normal hero.
Pogos being currently the statistical best is due to Barov. You're correct that the popularity being so low highlights that it is only viable in a specific circumstance, having Jandice predominantly. There other heroes Bran, Shudder and Arianna that also contribute to pogos win percent.
To believe that pogo's combined with Jandice does not reliably offer a strong chance at top 4 just doesn't stack up with the facts or probability.
Great summation....NOT WHAT IM SAYING. I Agree Jandice +POGOS is strong. When you get Pogo's, EARLY, she's strong. My contention is when you dont shes weak and there is NOT ENOUGH DATA YET to make have an accurate opinion on if this is balanced.
The hysterics here are almost comical. something comes out and 3 days later people are screaming and crying for a nerf. Can we wait a bit for more data? or should we just be slamming guardrail to guardrail here?
I honeslty dont know what you want. Ive clearly stated my point several times because people continue to misrepresent my point. If you dont understand what ive said please feel free to go back and read what i wrote.
There is not enough data yet on barov and pogos. I dont see how a 12.8% chance to find a minion is broken.
We will see when we get more data. Until then anything else is hysterics .
I have learned if you are Jandice and have a Brann, cling to your "Discover A Murloc" dude for dear life and never let him go.
The Tavern is so dodgy and you think if you are Tier 5 that you'll find at least one crappy a Murloc buff in 10 Tavern refreshes, but even if no one is going Murlocs you can have 2 turns in a row with 10 refreshes and strike out all 20 times while also not seeing any other useful minions at all.
You don't seem to want to look at/accept the data from HSreplay, 3.3million matches from this patch. Jandice has actually gradually decreased in average ranking across this time. So you're right in that the initial games from the start of the patch may be hiding an even better win rate.
Pogos are common enough that after 4 rolls at 12.8% there's a 50% chance you have seen one. In actual fact this is probably slightly better as pogo's not really contested and other minions will be removed from the pool. That's pretty consistent to me.
I'm sure that in a couple of weeks once the hysterics have subsided that you'll be admitting a misjudgment regarding this hero, we'll just have to wait until then.
played her once, got pogo early and easily won the game
Pogo with her is really strong.
It is simple, you get a single Pogo early on, and you are pretty much set for a top 4 finish. You get 2 pogos early and you are going to roflstomp your way to a top 2 finish, most likely winning the lobby. It would take some god tier comps in order to beat early Pogo Jandice. But then, there are the games where Pogos are nowhere to be found, and then you are going to be very sad.
Release the Kraken!
How about a different frame. Suppose there was a Tavern 2 minion that Reno could get, and almost surely win if he Hero Powers it immediately. Instant Tavern 2 Goldgrubber on Turn 3 might kinda be that.
I think that'd be bad, not because it'd be too strong or the balance would be off. I think it'd be structurally bad, rather than a statistical problem. A highroll into an almost certain win on turn 3 or 4, IMO, is just bad. Folks shouldn't be able to highroll into a win that early. That seems to me like the problem with Jandice Pogos. It's structural, and this much of a highroll shouldn't be possible this early.
Like, if Pogo was a Tavern 3 or 4 minion that scaled faster, leading to the same giant mechs in the end? Probably less of a problem.
That’s a fair take on it. Playing Against Baron when she gets an early pogo feels bad, just like when a shifter yields an early 6 drop or any other early high roll. No arguments there that’s an entirely fair and nuanced sentiment considering how early after the patch we are.
It's an interesting point regarding play impact.
I had a look on HSreplay and pogo's is pretty much top except for 3-5 mama bear and 6-7 kaly. I'd assume pogo is there solely due to Jandice playing one every turn once she gets one.
So it's basically like getting like a bran/lightfang/mama bear etc.