Go Figure, Druid is Popular! Dean Ayala Talks About Monitoring the Meta & Potential for Changes
Druid has been a very popular class recently thanks to some new additions handed to them during Frozen Throne. Unfortunately though when one class succeeds too well, the community won't stop asking questions and thankfully this time around, we've reeled in a response from Dean Ayala.
Below you'll find our recap of the important points and the full quote from Dean.
- It is not abnormal to see one archetype get popular early on; people latch onto powerful decks.
- Using short term statistics to say things like "more popular than Undertaker Hunter" isn't a good comparison. The two use different sets of data (biased publicly gathered vs all players via internal stats)
- Blizzard is always watching the meta.
- TL;DR: They are discussing possible Druid changes internally, but it's too early to say if anything will be changed.
Dean talked about some the cards being used by Druids and what they've been talking about internally.
Innervate, Swipe, Wild Growth
- Class defining cards are good, but auto-include cards into decks isn't their design goal.
- Internal discussions are weighing pros and cons about each card staying with Druid for eternity.
Ultimate Infestation
- They think changing it would only impact player sentiment and not play or win rate stats.
- It doesn't appear to be statistically responsible for Druid power or popularity.
- Player sentiment and the card's draw power not being a part of their class identity leave the card up for balance discussion.
Spreading Plague
- Druids have a vulnerability to swarms of minions. They liked this method to help them with that as it fit the flavor of the class.
- They'd like to only see it used during heavy swarm minion metas and not general inclusion in all Druid decks.
- The current meta shows a lot of swarm-style decks which is likely why we're seeing it played so much. Their eyes remain on this card.
Blue Post
Quote from Dean AyalaDruid surpasses in popularity the historic Undertaker Hunter
We cite internal statistics from time to time, but I tend to be cautious of that myself because it's very difficult to find any statistic that represents everyone. Given enough time and enough access I find that it's not difficult to display data to support almost any opinion about the metagame. At the end of the Un'Goro cycle, Hunter was actually the highest win rate class among all Hearthstone players. In fact, Hunter held the highest win rate for the a large portion of the expansion. Of course, I wouldn't say that in retrospect of Un'Goro that Hunter should have been less powerful, but that is what the data might suggest. With that in mind, here are some thoughts on some of the comments I've read in this thread.
- Druid surpasses in popularity the historic Undertaker Hunter.
The statistics being used for this post are for one rank over one day. The statistics we cite about Undertaker Hunter reference all Hearthstone players at all ranks over a time range of a week to a month. Druid is popular right now, but these statistics aren't comparable. If I had to guess what the most popular class within one rank of all time is, I would probably guess Mage at Rank 25 on an average day or Warrior at Legend during the Warsong Commander / Molten Giant era.
- Blizzard disappeared after the expansion.
As with every early metagame, we are monitoring play rates, win rates, and player sentiment on a daily basis. We hop in threads like this one fairly regularly to say exactly that, but people tend to want to know exactly whether we are or are not going to change something. We are discussing what potential changes we could make if Druid increases in popularity over time, but ~5 days of popularity is not enough to make that call at this time.
- The people want to know the status of a druid nerf.
We are looking at a number of Druid cards, but for a deck or archetype to reach this level of popularity this early on in an expansion is not abnormal. The population usually finds something powerful, latches onto it, then other decks that are powerful vs that archetype come onto the scene until one of them emerges as the new popular deck before the cycle continues. It's certainly possible that Druid is in fact so powerful that it prevents the normal metagame cycle from happening, but it's too early to tell. Here are some thoughts on current Druid cards. Keep in mind that these are some of the discussions we have internally, not a list of changes.
Innervate, Swipe, Wild Growth: When we changed Keeper of the Grove and Ancient of Lore, the goal was for Druids to have more interesting decisions to make when deckbuilding rather than a large group of cards to be automatically included. Even though those cards changed, there are still some other offenders of this such as Innervate or Swipe...and Wild Growth to a lesser degree. Having some powerful cards that help define what makes a class different can be good, but those cards in particular have spawned a number of internal conversations where we have been weighing the upside and downside to having each as a part of Druid for Hearthstone eternity.
Ultimate Infestation: Changing a card like Ultimate Infestation we think would have a bigger impact on player sentiment than actual play rate or win rate statistics. It's a big, flashy, cool design but it hasn't appeared to be statistically responsible for Druid power or popularity. Power level aside, having such a powerful card draw effect in Druid is something we are wary of in Druid because we wouldn't consider it part of their identity as a class. Partially for that reason and for sentiment reasons it is still part of discussions in terms of what to do with Druid should population and power level continue to rise.
Spreading Plague: Part of what keeps Druid vulnerable is their weakness to minion swarms due to a lack of powerful AoE. While we think plague is a soft version of AoE that fits the Druid flavor kit, it might shore up one of points of vulnerability more than we would have originally intended. Ideally Spreading Plague is used in heavy minion swarm metas and less so as a general inclusion in any Druid deck. Token Druid, Token Shaman, and Murloc Paladin are all showing high population in the current metagame so it's possible the meta for plague just happens to be now, but it's a card we're continuing to keep a close eye on going forward.
This is kinda a lame excuse. I play shadowverse and those guys are mobile first and they nerf the hell out of strong cards every single month. They went on to nerf Blood in their new expansion (was way too powerful just like druid) at the same month it was launched (or at least really close). They went ahead and nerfed two other archetypes that would sure get too damn powerful with the blood nerfs and they used win rates ad play rates to back that up. Changes in mobile takes time, its true. But its clear that Team5 wait too much time to take action. Hearthstone has a huge player base, there are a lot of players giving feedback, its truly easy to see when things are getting out of control and yet, Blizz just wait until noone cares anymore. While I'm having the most fun I ever had in hearthstone right now, countless times I stopped playing the game because of OP decks got out of control and blizz was posting "its still too early".
A jade idol talks to an undertaker:
"- So ho was your 6 months of uncontested champion?
- Oh maan it was great, i was THE MAN in 2014!
- Cool dude. I'm looking forward to my 6 months too."
How about making Ultimate Infestation in line with druid quest - "Deal one damage, draw a card, gain one armor and put a +1/+1 on a minion for each minion with 5+ power you played this game" - still could draw you even more than 5 cards but you need to build a deck around it. Also, it will not work for Jades.
That would be a typical to the ground Blizzard style of "NEVER PLAY THIS CARD " nerf.
Ultimate Infastation would be an okay card in any class but the bloody druid. Simply because druid can "cheat" on mana and ramp up then innervate into UI on turn 5... Which is absolutely grotesque but obviously Iksar claims it's all good
Draw 3 cards instead of 5 will balance it yet remain a good card.
Then you must be an extremely sad person, because this is really a drop in the ocean as far as "harassment, insults" etc go. If you have worked in any kind of customer facing role especially face to face rather than criticism from the internet it is much much worse than the timid words here.
The reality is if you are creating a product of any kind you will get criticism and perhaps some of it will be people purely venting/non-constructive, you would have to be very thin-skinned as a games developer to be concerned about this small amount of "harassment". If as an adult you cannot deal with this then you should not be working as a games developer in the first place and perhaps avoid jobs that have contact with customers.
Don't take this the wrong way I am not condoning any kind of harassment like this, but it's absolutely to be expected with a product with such a large playerbase and it's something you have to be able cope with regularly as part of your job.
I said he was extremely sad because he said "I feel very sad for Team 5's community manager" where this kind of behaviour happens on a much worse scale in many other fields of work, he should therefore feel even more sad for those people too. I also never said the bad behaviour was justified (you might want to read the last paragraph of my post) just that it is a reality of jobs working with customers in general.
Can they just nerf ultimate infestation already? early ramp into ultimate infestation, full hand and board, Im not even turn 7!! How am I suppose to play other decks against this?! BrokeBack
This is not true for mage.
with this good deck http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/864956-top-10-eu-wild-legend-elemental-mage
I didn't run frostbolts.
I don't know for warriors.
Jade druid is not strong because of the current meta. It is strong because it has some of the most powerful cards and synergies in the entire game. I cannot even name 1 strong counter vs jade, perhaps Quest Mage but it is such a poor deck against the other general meta decks that it hardly counts. It has been around since MSoG, and it will continue to dominate and dictate the meta game even further.
Jade nerf in 3 months confirmed.
Both midrange paladin and aggro druid is better against jade than quest mage i m o. But no, I don't think jade druid has a really hard counter. On the other hand it doesn't have any autowins either.
Druid is my favorite class after rogue, but I too am real sick and tired of jade druid tbh.
The strongest counter decks are Big Priest, Purify Priest and Dragon Priest. Druid still has one weakness which is dealing with really big dudes, although they have teched in BGH in some decks which can be problematic.
So you tell me it isn't auto-win against control warrior? It must be something like 80% in jade favor.
"Class defining cards are good, but auto-include cards into decks isn't their design goal"
Am I missing something? Is Ultimate Infestation not an auto-include in every druid deck? Geez, I'm running into so many aggro druids I almost forgot ultimate infestation exists, aggro druid must be dominant in the meta right now :O
No more $ money from me Blizz, playtest and design better, implement tournament.
as is you can fack right off
yeah yeah you will nerf some low value card/s 2 weeks before world champs, as usual
tbagging all the players that moved heaven and earth to play aids drood, and losing more respect from serious players.
Glad to see tournament mode is not a priority, just more brokeback cards/ archetypes crammed down our throats for the slot machine grind of ladder and the luckster arena mode.
don't playtest, have boring designers that print garbage like geist that doesn't even work, baked in problems with the game that new cards will never fix, so as cool as a few things in KFT are, it's weak tea.
They watch the meta after all. Different to the last expansion when Quest Rogue got nerfed just before the next expansion came out...