Hearthpwn

Quote from Dawnstrife >>

I drew the perfect curve several times that would crush even a disadventageous matchup.

The DH bounced back like it was nothing, every single time. And this deck was made just to take on DH.

I could say the same about Spell Druid. Had several game with a perfect opening curve just crushed by Druid playing his 9-mana turn when I was still on turn 4. Overgrowth is ridiculous. It basically reads: have infinite pre-nerf Innervates until your opponents catches up on turn 10.

Spell Druid is way more OP than DH ever was. His ramping is just retarded now. I'm consistently play turn 4 against their turn fucking NINE every. Single. Game.

Combine that with that 7 drop who summons 3-cost beast and free 0-cost spells "if you have more than 7 mana" (o rly?). And the sidequest, and taunts. Fucking ridiculous.

Quote from shaolinweed >>

Holy f*ck people. They nerfed it day TWO and youre still complaining? Where the f*ck did all these entitled idiots come from. New generation of undisciplined kids i guess. Sheesh 

 I agree. The nerfs were absolutely premature, despite 99% of the people on this site thinking otherwise. Playing several variants of DH decks today against multiple classes, people finally trying the new cards... it's pretty obvious that there are some very bad matchups - that would have been bad even pre-nerf. Combo DH vs both the new Spell/token/ramp Druid and Embiggen Druid is literally impossible. And I think Midrange DH doesn't do that well against them either. Priest with new cards like Apotheosis and Renew on top of Penance and the other insane heals he already had, you either have the perfect draw into full 26 dmg combo or you can concede pretty quickly.

Swarm DH just lose the game on the spot to any 2 dmg aoe, it's an okay aggro deck but nothing more, certainly not nearly as good as Mech Pala from the previous meta, which had the ability to create a big minion with magnetic (not to mention Reborn) and laugh at your aoes. And hey, I don't like these kind of decks either, but come on. 2 days?

Quote from Deck_Fiend >>

what about highlander, please? I have just returned to the game, and just playing through the quests to unlock the class now. 

I was going to wait a bit and see what nerfs came down, but might actually be ok to craft a few cards for a deck now. 

Did the nerfs mainly hit the combo deck then, or did highlander get hurt too? 

Highlander wasn't really a thing tbh... I tried some lists I found, and with good results too, but the truth is... most DH cards are just too good not to run them 2x. Besides what would be the incentive to play highlander? Just Alexstrasza basically... Also the combo deck has so much draw power that it can run Zephrys and consistently activate him lol.

As for your other question, the pure combo deck definitely seems less solid to me, while the midrange one doesn't feel much different. I may have been too hasty in judging hybrid ones tho, a friend of mine swears they work. The swarm face one is just not good imho, regardless of the nerfs. Any 2 damage aoe at the right time is instaconcede.

Quote from TheImmondBeast >>

for Combo the hardest blow is the nerf on the weapon; Skull at 6 mana is still strong and anyway it was usually discounted to zero mana thanks to the Sunstrider. Another bad thing ( and weird ), when you draw the discounted ( thanks to Skull ) Eye beam lazor and it happens to be "outcasted", his mana cost is not zero anymore but 1 mana. Sucks hard.

 Didn't know about that Eye Beam interaction, hasn't happened to me yet. So basically, if drawn from Skull, it would cost 0 if played "normally" and 1 if it's in Outcast? Lol that makes no sense, hopefully they'll fix that.

And yeah the weapon nerf is probably harder I agree.

Quote from xClusive >>

As for your fallacies, most notable is your final sentence: "in particular with Priestess clearing up whatever was left after Antaen's BS. It can also still come down on turn 5 if curved into from Raging Felscreamer, so if the issue was he hitting the board too early - it's not resolved." The whole clear that Demon Hunter did, in playing Priestess before or after Antaen, is significantly harder now. Playing her after Antaen means floating mana, which is steadily underrated as to how damaging that is to one's curve. Your statement about Antaen being able to still come down early with the help of Felscreamer means it becomes conditional; always far harder to pull off than with an unnerfed Demon. And again, it forces the hand of the DH into making an extra decision.

Maybe I'm missing something but I'm not following your Priestess / Antean reasoning. If you played Raging Felscreamer on turn 4 and have both Priestess and Antaen on turn 5, they are both VERY valid plays depending on board state. Ideally you want to play Antaen first if the board isn't scary. You'd be floating 1 mana, you really think that's an issue in DH? With a 1mana hero power and 0 cost cards?

My point was: if Antaen hitting the board on turn 5 was gamewinning on the spot its own, the earliest it came come down is still turn 5. Of course it's more conditional now, but do you seriously believe it's that hard to pull off? It's a simple 4-5 curve. IMHO the issue with Antaen is what he DOES, not how early he comes down - and the nerf didn't touch this. Nerfing his stats and/or the damage on wakeup would have had more sense imho.

This is the whole point about the nerfs! Making Skull clunky is a good thing, as the opposite of clunky was 'extremely good'. Hand size is supposed to be the hardest decision-making process in Combo decks.

I agree on principle, I'm just not sure the kind of nerf they did was the way to go. I'll re elaborate what I meant: Skull of Gul'dan is busted in the Midrange and Aggro decks because it allows for ridiculous discounted plays on the same or next turn (some of which you mentioned). And also allow them to refill their hand when they run out of steam. These massive swings will just come down a turn later, but I guarantee you they will still be ridiculous and oppressive in those decks because of the discounts. Skull imho won't really be clunky in those decks and will be played regardless because of this swinging potential and hand refilling. The nerf just hit hard the Combo deck (again, I'm admitting my bias here). Nerfing the discounts was more sensible than nerfing the cost.

As for the Combo vs Aggro thing, this is just my opinion but: it's true that Combo DH does (did?) very well against aggro as you said, which is atypical for a combo archetype... mainly thanks to Aldrachi Warblades. But at the same time, it doesn't do as good against midrange-controllish decks that runs mid to big sized minions, which is something Combo decks typically do well against. This is because you have to remove them by hitting them with your face - not only meaning a lot of damage taken (especially with the Warblades nerf) but it's the same damage that would be used for the combo ie. the amount of damage the deck has is finite. This is especially relevant for taunt minions (combo doesn't run Kayn btw). Embiggen Druid comes to mind as a horrible matchup, for example.

So the Aggro > Combo > Control balance wasn't necessarily out of the window, it was just different. I think other classes' decks had to be refined for the new meta, especially after losing key cards with the rotation, to make a better evaluation on the situation.

Just to be clear, I do think some cards needed a nerf, I'm just not sure they targeted the right ones or made good changes. For reference, I'm playing on EU server at very low legend ranks. Everyone is ranting about DH in general and not about a specific deck, but up to yesterday there were actually three different archetypes running around:

- Midrange: definitely the most popular and probably the strongest list, running a somewhat balanced 1 to 7 curve closing with Imprisoned Antaen, Metamorphosis and Priestess of Fury. They run all the nerfed cards.

- Swarm full aggro: the least popular at my ranks and I believe the weaker list. They run a more aggressive low cost minion package that included things like the Wrathscale Naga + Coordinated Strike combo, Frenzied Felwing and more 1-drops. From what I've seen they run NONE of the cards nerfed except for Skull of Gul'dan.

- Combo: lots of draws into Kael'thas Sunstrider + Twin Slice + Inner Demon X2 yada yada I guess everyone is familiar with this by now. Second most popular and almost as strong as Midrange, they do NOT run Priestess and Antaen but of course run the other two.

Just to be clear, there is (was?) no deck that did ALL those things at once and did it well. You were NOT getting owned in the same game by Naga combos + Antaen + Priestess + a 20 dmg Inner Demon combo. There were some hybrid midrange lists running the Inner Demon combo, but they are not nearly as strong as specializing in one things or the other and often ended up with a clunky hand (yes I tried them).

I will also admit that I like the Combo deck a lot so I may be a bit biased toward it. The reason I don't like these nerfs is because they have basically no impact on Swarm DH, little impact on Midrange (which again was the strongest) and a lot of impact on Combo. Skull of Gul'dan at 6 is very clunky now, not just because it comes later (in fact I'd say it's almost not an issue), but mainly because it's too hard to manage your hand size now. The extra durability on Aldrachi Warblades was needed for early survival, also because with the Combo deck you have to save Twin Slices for the finisher, while Midrange can use them more freely and has basically no issue with the nerfed durability.

Imho they should have targeted the Midrange and Swarm decks, which are absolutely more cancerous and braindead to play, in particular nerfing Priestess and Battlefiend. I'm also not so sure about HOW they nerfed Antaen, the issue with him was the unstoppable, ridiculous damage on wakeup into threatening another 10 damage right after, in particular with Priestess clearing up whatever was left after Antaen's BS. It can also still come down on turn 5 if curved into from Raging Felscreamer, so if the issue was he hitting the board too early - it's not resolved. The only nerf I agree with is Eye Beam, 2 mana discount instead of 3 is definitely more fair.

Quote from Ixlid >>

Quote from RushingMonkey >>

Skull at 7 is just unplayable. Reducing the Outcast discount to 2 or 1 would be okay.

Aldrachi is a key card for surviving in the early game, 4 mana is too much because it means that by the time it comes down it will only clear leftover tokens or need its atk buffed by spending extra mana and possibily cards on it. 3 mana 2/2 maybe? In combo decks it's often used to attack face even on a cleared board just for heals and to bring them into OTK range (and because everybody is running Oozes now), so 1 less durability would solve the issue.

Nerf to Eye Beam and Battlefiend are perfect as proposed.

Skull of Gul'dan is way too overpowered and troubling that it offers Demon Hunter huge value, tempo and burst damage for only 5 mana, only nerfing its cost reduction won't solve the problem with its massive mana cheating. Nerfing it to 6 cost won't be enough that it's still dangerous and only 7 cost will nerf it into a safe power level.

Aldrachi Warblades into 2 durability might be a good idea but won't solve its problem that it can still play Satyr Overseer and Glaivebound Adept on curve following it, which can be unhealthy for the long term since those 3 cards are all basic cards.

 7 mana is WAY too much for Skull. I agree that it's OP as it is, but it's mostly because of the cost reduction - when it's played without Outcast, it's just a decent drawing card, nothing more. At 7 mana it's just a worse Sprint with a VERY conditional upside. The card is OP right because when Outcasted at turn 5 or 6 it'll often either give you a good (sometimes very good) play on the same turn, or a massive play on the next, it's not just the drawing in itself. Nerfing the Outcast cost reduction would solve the issue.

Skull at 7 is just unplayable. Reducing the Outcast discount to 2 or 1 would be okay.

Aldrachi is a key card for surviving in the early game, 4 mana is too much because it means that by the time it comes down it will only clear leftover tokens or need its atk buffed by spending extra mana and possibily cards on it. 3 mana 2/2 maybe? In combo decks it's often used to attack face even on a cleared board just for heals and to bring them into OTK range (and because everybody is running Oozes now), so 1 less durability would solve the issue.

Nerf to Eye Beam and Battlefiend are perfect as proposed.

Craft Metamorphosis if you want to play DH now, Kayn isn't necessary.

I really hope they don't nerf everything to the ground. The pure combo DH list is the most fun I've had in HS in a while, it gives me VERY strong Miracle Rogue vibes and that was my favorite deck ever. I'd be happy if they nerf just priestess and antaen since combo doesn't even use those lol.

Quote from Wonderbuster >>

Quote from MikaelThas >>

Demon Hunter is tier S at this time. HS has never had a tier S deck. Never. That's why it's worrying, it's unhealthy for the game.

 Bullshit. I know of two examples of Tier S decks in Wild, those being the Galakrond Shaman and the Snip-Snap Warlock in Wild. I have been around long enough to see actual toxic decks like Giantslock, Togwaggle/Star Aligner Druid and Kingsbane Mill Rogue. Next time, actually research before making an inaccurate statement. Compared to those, Demon Hunter in general PALES in comparison.

 

 

 Going further back, I'd also add Patron Warrior before the Warsong Commander nerf. That deck was very difficult to pilot so it wasn't as oppressive in terms of how many people were playing it, but it had basically no counter and sat at the top of every tier lists for around 10 months I believe? Combo deck with insane amount of draw and most importantly survivability and removal, could often draw the entire deck by turn 8-10 while still being very high in health/armor. And this wasn't even a wild-only issue lol

Quote from lv426a11 >>

Quote from Zirek >>

I hope dh not get nerfed i loved it 

Its not realy brainless actualy 

Yes little aggro 

But you must make your decisons carefully

 Like - "which of my supidly overpowered cards should I play next?"...tough decisions all round...

 Have you actually tried  playing it a bit? Regardless of the OPness of some cards, which I admit is true, the decisions in regards to what to play to take advantage of the Outcast mechanics are actually really interesting. Sometimes you can (or have to) play a sub-optimal turn so that you can play a big Outcast swing in the next. The order in which you play cards actually counts. Also Sightless Watcher allows you to plan your next turn. There are also a lot of cool weapons interactions and mini combos.

Super interesting mechanic and play style imho. Some cards seem OP af admittedly, but I think it's too soon to judge. Everybody is crying about Imprisoned Antaen but if the meta shifts to aggro that card is completely useless. Skull of Gul'dan is also really strong.

Great idea, really hope it works! Love the possible little combos in the early game too, especially a buffed Augmented Porcupine  into Mok'Nathal Lion seriously has the potential to win you the early/midgame on its own.

What are your thoughts about including Scarlet Webweaver with the idea of ensuring Thundra Rhino gets pulled? You could either play it any beast at 0 just before Leoroxx to ensure the charge in case you have more 4 beasts in hand; or you could combo a 0-cost Rhino with Zixor Prime (another combo idea I've seen around) whose battlecry would be wasted if pulled from Leoroxx.