Hearthpwn

RNG isn't being manipulated per se imho

However, there's so much RNG now in the game, and of a bad kind (generated by generated by generated by...), that it negates skill to a certain amount, and I can see that driving down the winrates closer to 50%. 

Lmao, I agree with the general sentiment of the post but this part is completely off:

Hunter mains crying because a new class is better and cooler at doing what they always did, SMOrc.

Hunter as a class is in a fantastic spot right now, not only you can SMORC as efficiently as usual and in a somewhat cooler way (Face-Teron Hunter, that also shits on Rogue by the way), but there are multiple meta-viable archetypes (Dragon, Highlander) on top of the usual reliable SMORCing and also cool off-meta builds that actually works (combo packages with Scavenger's / Boars / whatev).

Not to mention Hunter actually does great specifically against DH with the Arcane Shot / Explosive Trap / Dwarven / Scalerider package dealing with DH's 2-health minions.

The Stonetusk Boar combos are faster and more consistent, you may want to check this deck https://www.hearthpwn.com/linkout?remoteUrl=https%3a%2f%2fwww.hearthstonetopdecks.com%2fdecks%2fboar-hunter-akatsu-ashes-of-outland%2f

The Boar combo package (2x Scavenger's, Boars, Scrapshots, Ramkahens) is also good enough to work stand-alone in hybrid decks as long as you don't have other beasts of course, like this one (not mine, not tacking credit here) https://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/1345464-tempo-boar-hunter-legend-deck-65-win-rate-not-otk

I actually got legend on EU with that hybrid, as long as you are not facing too many Warriors it really does work, although it can be a bit inconsistent at times. But dropping Ram + two 4/4 Boars on turn 5 and going face against a DH that suddenly has to start trading is a feeling that's worth the troubles lol

I'm experimenting now with a combo package that includes Zixor, Scavenger's, 2x Diving Gryphon, 2x Ramkahens, 1x Thundra and 1x Webreaver - you're basically guaranteed to draw the Prime by turn 8 with those double tutors, I even got an OTK charge combo with a 0-cost Thundra in one game too... we'll see lol.

Quote from TyrantrumRex >>

Okay, if priestess only hit minions, it would NOT be a buff... That's one of the silliest things I've ever heard... Right now, DH generally clears your board with other resources when they get her out, so you take 6 to the face. If you cant clear her, she does 6 attack damage to the face, and 6 more to the face.... Right now, if you need the turn after her for setup... You're finished. 18 guaranteed face damage...If she only hit minions, you have 2 turns to take care of her, only taking 12.

If you don't take care of her the turn she is played, and get some minions out, DH is usually going to kill those minions, so that her after turn affect goes all face... Same scenario with her only hitting minions, your minions get cleared, you don't take that 6 face damage and you get another turn to deal with her... At least this way DH has to work to get your minions down to 6 health through their turn to make her most effective.

Look through past cards... One's that always hit minions have lower mana value than ones that can hit face... There's a reason for that.

No it's not the same scenario, your initial assumption is completely faulty because DH can't ALWAYS clear your board on the same turn she's played. I'd be careful of calling "silly" other people opinions when you're completely overlooking some obvious facts yourself and only considering the best case scenario.

Again, DH right now can't always clear your board on the same turn she plays her. He can only do that with previous board presence OR a previously equipped Warglaives most of the times. So your minions don't always "get cleared anyway" like you're implying, not just by Priestess, if you were ahead and could somehow play around it by putting at least a 4+ health minion on the board, and that's a BIG deal. Also because 1) if he wants to clear the way for Priestess to go face and doesn't have a weapon, he'll at least need to trade some other minions and 2) in the Warglaives case, DH is often forced to take a crapload of face damage in the hope of closing the game with Priestess faster than you can, which is something that can actually backfire against other aggressive classes (especially Hunter).

If Priestess only hit minions, she'd be weaker in some scenarios sure but absolutely bonkers in others. She would basically be a lot better played from behind, a better Reno the Relicologist shooting 6 at minions at the end of every turn and with no deck restriction required. And she'd be WAY more difficult to clear because you won't be able to like trade your surviving minion(s) + a spell, you'd need way more often to remove her completely with cards from your hand.

Any deck that is based on having a board would die more slowly to face damage sure, but it would completely be cut out the game by what's essentially a constant barrage of infinite free board clears every turn, and could basically concede the moment she hits the board.

Quote from Nevermore00 >>

yeah I gotta agree. Would be bada$$ enough if it just hit minions.  

Why do people keep mentioning this like it would be a nerf? It would actually make her more consistent at clearing minions and a buff in most scenarios...

When DH plays an early Priestess I'm usually PRAYING that she mostly hits face and leaves alone my 3/2s or whatever, so that I can either trade into her or remove her with a spell while keeping my board. Or when I force a DH to play a Priestess onto a board with something like a 4/4 or a 5/5, which are basically guaranteed to survive, that's usually a game I'm gonna win. If she targeted only minions, she'd clear those 100% and would be much stronger in those scenarios.

The only nerf that makes sense is making her effect one time only, but I think the real problem is the ability to cheat her out on turn 5. That's just unmanageable most of the times.

Quote from enoX_36 >>

Primordial Explorer Hunter

Emerald Explorer Druid

Bronze Explorer Paladin

Azure Explorer Mage

These are the dragons who can discover other dragons for the 4 classes that represent the league of explorers.

Now, league of evil classes don't have access to them so they were granted Draconic Lackey which fits really well in the expansion. Remember that it's one of the 7 lackeys and it's a discover mechanic so you won't get the dragon you need everytime. The card is fair, it doesn't need a nerf nor any lackey does.

 

You can't just compare cards like that in a vacuum, especially against lackeys. I'm gonna make examples just about decks I know well, but:

Lackeys have a double layer of RNG - first which lackey you get, and if you get the dragon/spell/evolve ones, you have a second layer of RNG.

Now, not only this makes Rogue a complete RNG clown fiesta for obvious reasons, but it also feels REALLY annoying in something like Tempo Warrior. For example, they generate what, 2 lackeys per game on average? From Livewire Lance. Then, when he wins a game on the back of a lucky lackey, let's say generating that perfect dragon from one of the only TWO lackeys he got that game, well... it feels even more like a complete steal. Because he can't consistently pull out a Draconic Lackey in the first place, let alone that specific perfect dragon at the perfect time! And that's in a deck that doesn't have any dragon synergy whatsoever. I'm sure that given a choice of which lackey to get, Tempo Warrior wouldn't even choose Draconic Lackey most of the times, favoring the more "consistent" ones (2-dmg / taunt / rush). But they got the draconic, and they got lucky.

Something like Primordial Explorer in Dragon Hunter is completely different. First because it's almost the only RNG card in the deck, and literally the only "generating" one. Second because, well, it generates a Dragon for a Dragon-based deck. And moreover, Dragon Hunter will basically always pick (if offered) a specific subset of small to midrange dragons that fit with the gameplan of the deck. You won't see Dragon Hunter picking crazy huge swinging cards like Deathwing or Alex most of the times for example, because the deck aims to win before that point is even reached. Playing Dragon Hunter, I'll tell you that more than half the times, the main advantage of a Primordial-generated dragon is... having a dragon in hand that you don't even play, but helps activating "if you're holding a dragon" effects.

The worst that can happen is seeing something like a 3rd Rotnest or maybe Veranus... And yeah, sometimes that feels unfair too, but it's not like when you're playing against Rogue and suddenly have to face, I don't know, a random Evasive Drakonid they pulled out of their ass, a card that they would NEVER put in their deck in the first place and they picked just because in that particular game they needed a taunt and it happened to give them one of the best in the entire card collection. That's just dumb.

Oh come fucking on now. The guy clearly meant the three card draws currently run in any Tempo DH list - Crimson Runner, Chaos Strike and Skull - not counting the copies. Most lists don't run Spectral Sight anymore, Consume Magic was hardly ever seen (in tempo/aggro anyway) and absolutely nobody has run Feast of Souls since week one.

Yes it may be still too much, yes Skull is still too strong, but surely you guys have better arguments than these petty technicalities or "shut up you're not a legend player hurr durr"

Lmao fucking Mage players just want to play roulette.

So I was playing Dragon Hunter, and not doing well at all... turn 7 I was only sliiightly ahead on board. Had an Evasive Feyywing and a Dwarven Sharpshooter out, my opponent had a single Water Elemental from Deep Freeze and was sitting comfortably at 22 HPs. So yeah, not doing that well as a Hunter, I was expecting the Mage to either clear or do some Power of Creation play and basically win the game.

But no, the moment I hit the "end turn" button, Tortollan Pilgrim literally FLIES out of his hand with zero hesitation - you know where this is going - but the funny thing is, the discover prompt stayed up on screen for no more than 0.2 seconds. The guy like instantly choose Puzzlebox. Which of course clears my board, summons AND buffs a bunch of shit for him (also casting Soul of the Forest because why fucking not) and yeah, gg

I mean, I'm not even mad at the Puzzlebox output - I was probably gonna lose that game anyway - in fact, if anything that Puzzlebox risked to lose THEM a game that was going to be won! But it's fucking disgusting that they're not even using it as a last resort "hail mary" when things are going south. They literally just want like to be featured on a Trolden video or something, they don't care about playing Hearthstone. It wasn't the first time either I got Puzzleboxed while not being ahead at all, seriously WTF Mage players?

Quote from SirJohn13 >>

Quote from RushingMonkey >>

Quote from Zangoosed >>

From the Shaman games I've played since this expansion I can say 1 thing has stood out above all others:

Their card draw is awful. They have to rely on Novice Engineer Far Sight and Mana Tide Totem. Three very not so great options in the current meta.

Their top two competitive decks Galakrond Evolve Shaman and Totem Shaman are very very very draw dependent. When I played with them it was either you drew the nuts and went off, or you just drew nothing and got stomped. Very polarizing decks with no consistency.

There is always a weakest class during every meta each expansion, but I think they neglected Shaman a little too much in my opinon. They just don't have the tools to consistently be winning. I don't know if "buffs" to their current cards will help all that much. The next expansion has to show love to Shaman in some way though.

I think Totem Shaman is just a few cards away from being competitive. Totemic Reflection and Splitting Axe are VERY strong build-around cards imho, the problem is... they don't have good targets. You have to rely on a basic / Mana Tide / EVIL Totem to survive a turn, and it's often just not gonna happen... but worse than that, being 0/X on turn 2 or 3 before being buffed, the opponent can just trade into them with his own minions without losing anything.

I tried building a Totem Shaman in Wild just for fun, putting in old glories like Totem Golem, Tuskarr Totemic and Thing from Below and well... the deck really starts to work - of course I got crushed by legit top Wild decks, but I could see the power level of the deck being definitely playable to very competitive in Standard. Basically it needs one or two decent minions with the totem tag, and something that rewards you for either having summoned totems or having them on board, kinda like Bloodboil Brute rewards Warriors for havign damaged minions.

 

 After playing 2 days of Totem Shaman I have to say: day 1 I was getting destroyed all the time, day 2 I even score a bit better than 50% overall. The deck is good against Face Hunters, seems 50-50 against other Aggro like Zoolock, Murlock Paladin, Pirate Warrior and so on, fine against Priest, but gets beaten up badly by Rogue and totally obliterated by DH especially if you play on coin.  The main problem is that playing EVIL Totem on t2 or t1 with coin usually backfires. Opponents know they should remove it as Totemic Reflection is coming, and they can mostly do so quite easily. Which means that I normally have to wait till turn 5 to do this combo and try to survive until then with hero power tokens and 1-mana minions. It works in some matchups but almost never against DH. By the way, I play a version with 2xMagic Carpet and I feel it is somewhat superior to running Marshspawn or Serpentshrine Portal.

I played both the Carpet and the Marshspawn version, and I agree with you - the Carpet version is superior. The Marshspawn list, if it's the same I played, was waaay too spell-heavy and prone to spell-only opening hands bricks, 2x Lightning Bolt and 2x Lava Burst was absolutely too much.

However I found this list too https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/decks/totem-shaman-wirer-ashes-of-outland-2/ which is carpet-less but a bit more balanced in the number of spells, and I've had the most success with it. I don't have Vessina tho, subbed another 4-drop in her place.

Quote from Zangoosed >>

From the Shaman games I've played since this expansion I can say 1 thing has stood out above all others:

Their card draw is awful. They have to rely on Novice Engineer Far Sight and Mana Tide Totem. Three very not so great options in the current meta.

Their top two competitive decks Galakrond Evolve Shaman and Totem Shaman are very very very draw dependent. When I played with them it was either you drew the nuts and went off, or you just drew nothing and got stomped. Very polarizing decks with no consistency.

There is always a weakest class during every meta each expansion, but I think they neglected Shaman a little too much in my opinon. They just don't have the tools to consistently be winning. I don't know if "buffs" to their current cards will help all that much. The next expansion has to show love to Shaman in some way though.

I think Totem Shaman is just a few cards away from being competitive. Totemic Reflection and Splitting Axe are VERY strong build-around cards imho, the problem is... they don't have good targets. You have to rely on a basic / Mana Tide / EVIL Totem to survive a turn, and it's often just not gonna happen... but worse than that, being 0/X on turn 2 or 3 before being buffed, the opponent can just trade into them with his own minions without losing anything.

I tried building a Totem Shaman in Wild just for fun, putting in old glories like Totem Golem, Tuskarr Totemic and Thing from Below and well... the deck really starts to work - of course I got crushed by legit top Wild decks, but I could see the power level of the deck being definitely playable to very competitive in Standard. Basically it needs one or two decent minions with the totem tag, and something that rewards you for either having summoned totems or having them on board, kinda like Bloodboil Brute rewards Warriors for havign damaged minions.

Call it a salt rant if you will, RNG in this game right now is too much. the amount of "discover this, add a random that" from so many cards has turned this game into a joke. You can outplay your opponent for 8 rounds straight but one lucky dragonqueen or discover a spell and they have you losing within 1-3 turns. 

Something has to change to make the game more like it used to be. Reliable knowledge and good plays making your wins worthwhile. The level of game swinging RNG right now spits in the face of anyone who has any measure of skill at this game. Whats even the point trying to play well when your opponent can roll the dice and laugh in your face for it.

Quote from Lycaon55 >>

Any game involving cards has some RNG involved in it and no one will contest that. HS, compared the early days, has now too much RNG. It is acceptable when it comes to card draw and discover mechanics. But when it comes to direct action on the board the player should given a certain control. Here is an example of what I am talking about: Let's take Rotnest Drake. Battlecry: If you are holding a dragon destroy a random enemy minion. On top of the ability to destroy a random enemy minion there is a condition. If don't hold a dragon the card is still playable on turn 5 but it loses most of it value. Now, I am not saying it's the best option but just for the sake of proving my point, here is what the Battlecry could be: "Destroy a random enemy minion. If you are holding a dragon, deal 5 damage"  it demonstrates that there can be RNG and a certain degree of control that the player can have. Winning because of RNG or your skill to manage RNG is satsifying but winning because of the moves you make and the decisions you make is much more rewarding. 

 Actually its the other way around. Its cards like Rotnest Drake that is what should be "acceptable RNG" Cause at least this card leaves you some room for countering it. You can play as many tokens as possible when you expect it and decrease the chance it will kill your big minion. Its not different than Ragnaros, i feel like Ragnaros was the type of RNG that was healthy for the game.

Discover mechanic is everything that is wrong with HS right now. It has so many possible outcomes, it makes it so you discover cards that discover more cards that should never be in your deck and everything gets out of control to the point that you cant play around anything. Who exactly is going to play around dragon lackey giving Dragonqueen alexstrasza giving Ysera unleashed that gives you more random dragons. 

But as i said once you realize that this is how the game is meant to be you just stop taking it seriously and move on.

So, I just lost a game to a priest, and I almost just quit as soon as I queued up against one.

I have about a 50/50 winrate, but EVERY game is 30 minutes long, and so so stupid. 

I got him down to 3 HP at about turn 8. Then turn 9 He mass resurrects 3 Kartut Defenders and, as you all can imagine, I did about 100 damage to his face, and minions. 

This entire mechanic is not fun. having a wall of taunts that instantly kill any minion, and heal face, lead to extremely long, frustrating games that ultimately are not about skill, they are about trying to manage my resources for a 60 minute epic. 

I'm playing pure paladin, and without at least 1 silence I can not enjoy this match up at all. 

*sigh*

Against my better judgment, I'll participate here.  The OP appears to be a reasonable and well mannered individual, so I think they deserve such discussion in kind.

This is going to be long, so I'll try and make it organized and readable.  But my TLDR: there isn't good evidence to support "hidden RNG manipulation", and I don't think it is happening in Hearthstone, though it would be very difficult and time consuming to prove that it is happening.

On why I don't think it is happening:

(1)  There isn't any good evidence to support the claim that they are doing it.  Almost everything everyone thinks is "evidence" is purely anecdotal.  Also, if it is happening, wouldn't you also think there should be anecdotal accounts of "HS is rigged!  Look at how good my RNG was in these game!"  Yet you only hear the negative accounts.  If behind-the-scenes winrate parity is occurring, there has to be accounts of both... but there aren't.  And while 3nnu1 has tried to do better, it is still low quality "evidence".  You'll notice that the three things 3nnu1 provided didn't mention Hearthstone at all, ever, nor digital CCGs / TCGs.  Also notice that the second piece (first video) doesn't even mention Blizzard.  And the last video is info that Blizzard allowed an employee of theirs to present on publicly, and the information there doesn't even go beyond what Blizzard has already said they are doing (trying to match on MMR, rank, or similar measures between players).

(2)  As laadeedaa and 1xbenx1 both discussed, it doesn't really make sense to do so from the standpoint of Blizzard.  While there are things in the game where probabilities aren't uniformally distributed (MMR matching, discovery finds, etc), those are also items Blizzard publicly provided before they went into effect.  If they were doing other things "behind the scenes", it would (  A  ) undermine the work of their own employees who develop cards, play-test, and balance, i.e., they are paying two different groups within the company to work on opposing goals, (  B  ) it is a disincentive to purchasing more cards as the "nefarious algorithms" will make up for your poor card quality to pull you up towards 50% winrate anyway, while better cards won't help you climb above 50%, and (  C  ) if such practices were ever actually exposes, it undermines the entire business endeavor because, like the OP said, they would stop playing.  So the benefit of them doing so (selling a small percentage more of cards) doesn't justify the risk (loss of the entire business).  Plus, the mechanism to get players to buy more cards is pretty apparent and has been around since MTG Alpha: card rarity correlating with quality / power (what would a highlander deck be without legendaries? on average, how useful are epics compared to rares and commons?).

(3) The game has been around quite a while.  In that time, issues have arisen where the game wasn't operating as Blizzard said.  The one that sticks out in my mind is the tri-class cards drop-rate issues; that was found out by the community and reported to Blizzard in a matter of hours.  Yet here we are, over 6 years since the game started, and the community hasn't produced anything substantive about untold RNG manipulation in Hearthstone.  Also, if it was occurring, such info would be a prime target for a disgruntled employee to leak to the public.  But again, this hasn't happened.  And for those who are like "prove it isn't", you can't prove the non-existence of something; it's logically impossible as you can't find evidence of something that doesn't exists, because then the evidence doesn't also exist, and you can't find it.  But you can find of evidence of a thing that might exist... such as RNG rigging in Hearthstone.... but on that topic...

On why proving RNG is rigged would be very hard:

Someone mentioned the "play alot of games and record stuff in Excel" method.  While technically doable, it is practically ridiculous.  No one really has that time and patience for some side discussions around a hobby they have, involving work that isn't really around enjoying said hobby.   Also, you need to setup an experiment to target a certain type of RNG manipulation.  So the OP's anecdote around Conjurer's Calling would need alot of time and effort to collect the data on if the CC results are uniformally distributed or not.  And such an experiment would only answer the CC result question.  What about matching you versus similar MMR people, but against those with better collections?  Well... how do you even do that experiment?  How can you even know what their or your MMR is, or even what their collection is?  So certain manipulations can't even be tested for without a gigantic amount of time, money, and manpower (like, federal grant levels of support).  So I will say, for those who are like "do the experiment yourself"... really?!

Look, very few things are guaranteed in this world.  Even new drugs approved by stringent Class III FDA guidelines, where the company involved was completely honest and open about everything, the positive result needed for approval could have been a type I error all along! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_I_and_type_II_errors for those who don't know what they are; I'm not trying to be condescending here, seriously) But still, we use such methods of trying to prove drugs work because they are far better and more effective in actually finding drugs that work than the "evidence" individuals in Hearthstone forums use to try and convince others that Hearthstone is rigged.  Of course these are two entirely different levels of importance here, but I have to try and illustrate my thoughts somehow.

Quote from TigOldBiddy >>

Priestress is totally OP one of the op cards if played on turn 5 many classes have no way of dealing with 7 HP, and having her for 2 turns is gg Def need to decrease life here, cannot biggamehunter her, sure u need to sheep or frog her but again

 A gets nerfed you’ll complain about B.

B gets nerfed you’ll complain about C.

C gets nerfed you’ll complain about D.

And this trend continues through the entire alphabet until you get to Z, a new expansion comes out, and the cycle starts anew back at A.

Every player has 3 choices:

1. Complain endlessly yet continue to play fueled by bitterness and rage about how bad you think the balance team is.

2. Quit playing because you won’t ever be satisfied having this mindset.

3. Accept the state of the game, adapt, and overcome.

Egg warrior is such a perfect example. A flawless one in fact to the testament that people need to give the meta a single second to settle before witch hunting a class. It does incredible against DH, and the deck didn’t even come about until after nerfs had arrived.

Just because your homebrew paladin is losing to demon hunter doesn’t mean the class is too overpowered. 

And on a final note, why do SO many of you call for nerfs on the strong instead of calling for buffs on the weak? 

Quote from Unhappytimes >>

The only class legendary that is played regularly (in almost all cases) is Edwin and now Altruis.

What? Sure man, as long as you don't count Metamorphosis, Kayn, Zixor, Dragonbane, Veranus, Brann, Flik, Hanar, Ancharrr, Astromancer, Malygos Aspect, Reno, Akama and Catrina Muerte, who are all played on the regular in decent or good meta decks...

You're probably trading too much and using the dagger to take a lot of face damage. Need to Mulligan for the blackjacks and early drops for tempo. You know all the power cards they have so just try and play around their power cards on curve. I played highlander secret rogue a lot last month as was the most fun deck for me to play. Try and watch a few of your games back and look where it went wrong if you're not sure where it did then in the next game if same situation arises do something different and see if that changes anything, best way to learn

Quote from RushingMonkey >>

Quote from fusilli >>

Thanks for the response :)

Hey, if you're still interested, just wanted to say (and brag a bit :P) that I finally got to legend with that hybrid dragon/boar deck! Il re-post the list just in case: https://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/1345464-tempo-boar-hunter-legend-deck-65-win-rate-not-otk#c11

Just a warning, the deck's a bit more aggressive than you may like, being a combo player. It's definitely viable in the current meta, but don't expect it to be a meta-crusher. In fact absolutely DO NOT play it if you're seeing a lot of Tempo Warriors. I kept playing it because the last couple of days they seemed less frequent, and today in particular they just weren't around for some reason.

 Gz on the legend :) I'll probably see how far I can take the pure combo one to start, with some more tweaks. Might switch to the more tempo-y build when this starts faltering; we'll see how i feel :)

Also, can add quest paladins to (basically) unwinnable list. Looks like they've switched to reborn taunts to abuse with the HP, plus libram of Hope. No way to plough through that.

Honestly, I like the 1-mana hero power. It's comparable to Rogue (since for Rogue it can be thought of as +1 attack for 2 attacks for 2 mana, while Demon Hunter is +1 attack for 1 attack for 1 mana). It helps make it feel distinct from Rogue by making Demon Hunter get all up in your face every turn to get the value, while Rogue feels more patient by comparison since they equip the dagger and wait to strike.

Quote from I_Feel_Ur_Pain >>

Quote from Veklor >>

Instead of switching decks choose one that you like and is good. Learn that deck inside and out. Focus and think while you're playing it. It will increase your winrate. Most of the time people play without thinking.

 But d h is non thinking deck lol that’s why he playing it 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Your reply doesn't give the implication you are smart enough to play decks that require more thinking that what you think Death Hunter requires.