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- RushingMonkey
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8
RNG isn't being manipulated per se imho
However, there's so much RNG now in the game, and of a bad kind (generated by generated by generated by...), that it negates skill to a certain amount, and I can see that driving down the winrates closer to 50%.
1
Lmao, I agree with the general sentiment of the post but this part is completely off:
Hunter as a class is in a fantastic spot right now, not only you can SMORC as efficiently as usual and in a somewhat cooler way (Face-Teron Hunter, that also shits on Rogue by the way), but there are multiple meta-viable archetypes (Dragon, Highlander) on top of the usual reliable SMORCing and also cool off-meta builds that actually works (combo packages with Scavenger's / Boars / whatev).
Not to mention Hunter actually does great specifically against DH with the Arcane Shot / Explosive Trap / Dwarven / Scalerider package dealing with DH's 2-health minions.
0
Wall of text warning...
I think our different experience with OTK Boar is mostly due to differences in our pocket metas, as I said in the other thread, Res Priest (a basically unwinnable matchup) has completely fallen out of flavor where I play, Druids are long gone too. But there are also some bizarre day-to-day variances, like for example Tempo Warriors (another bad matchup and a definite tier1 deck): there are days they're nowhere to be seen, and days that I literally face nothing else. The only real constants have been DH and Rogue.
Now Tempo DH is a special case because Hunter does VERY well against him regardless of the archetype for a specific reason: literally any minion he plays up to turn 5 has no more than 2 HPs, and the Arcane Shot / Explosive Trap / Dwarven Shooter / Scalerider (if you're running dragons) package is a complete DH killer. Rogue as I said starts slow enough to give you a chance, and the rest is up to your draws and her RNG.
But in general, I think you're right. A full OTK Hunter in standard is far from being viabile, because of 1) his suboptimal control tools (as soon as an aggro arise that doesn't have that specific weakness DH has, we're fucked) 2) his lack of reliable card draw and 3) Hunting Party just sucks. Plus it's vulnerable to other meta shifts (Druids coming back in the meta would be super bad)
However...
After playing around with that Dragon/boar hybrid and experimenting with other combo packages myself, I think non-OTK-but-still-Comboish Hunter can definitely be a thing, either with Boars or other stuff. You just have to not get too greedy with the combo package, and understand when to go for the combo play. These half-non-OTK-combos are actually very versatile and they often leave on the board MASSIVE threats the opponent has to deal with after having already taken a crapload of face damage. In a class like Hunter, even something as simple as two 4/4 Boars over two different turns that hit face AND have to be removed (and you only payed 1 mana for them to play along other stuff), is often game-winning on itself.
Going a bit greedier, running that Zixor / Scavenger's / Diving Gryphons / Ramkahens / 1x Thundra / 1x Webweaver I've won some games on the back of these plays:
- just a buffed Webreaver + Thundra 2-card turn-6 combo for 10 damage. If just Webweaver is buffed, you're looking at an 8/8 + 2/5 charge (basically an improved Dinotamer Brann lol). If just Thundra is buffed, it's 5/5 + 5/8. And the thing is, Thundra HAS to be removed because it's such a massive threat with the other beasts you're running. If both are buffed (happened once) well, gg
- having two/three buffed Thundra Rhinos back to back from turn 5 onwards
- 0-mana Thundra + Zixor prime (this is the possible OTK combination)
- multiple buffed and/or discounted Zixor Primes in a row even without charge, exhausting my opponent board-clear resources (relevant vs Priest and Mages). It's worth noting that with Diving Gryphon tutoring specifically for Zixor base AND prime, and both being tutorable by Scavenger's, I consistently find the Prime to play right on curve
Scavenger's on itself is just really that good and enable everything, to the point that current meta Dragon Hunter lists are running it with Zixor+Phase Stalker. It's just a matter of finding a good balance between the Dragon plan and the Combo/Beast one.
0
Not really, its cost/effect is pretty much in line with spells like Nether Breath and Corrosive Breath unless you want to argue that "holding a dragon" is significantly harder to activate than Outcast. Card is basically a Penance on average, and the interaction with Skull does feel completely stupid and unintended (although I don't believe it is).
0
Yeeeah when I wrote that previous post I kinda forgot there were another 3 or 4 expansion in between I completely missed lol. I got nothing from Knights of the Frozen Throne either. But I basically only miss Deathstalker Rexxar, the Toxic Arrows and a couple of commons from your list, and I always wanted to give some DK heroes a try if I had some dust to spare (which I don't at the moment), so I'm gonna save your list for the future. Thanks!
0
Not great imho. In my experience playing as the aggro against Druid, the faster the deck is the better you do against Druid. No idea how it fares against Rogue.
As for OP's question, Face-Teron Hunter is probably the best choice against Rogue right now as many people already said, and is great against DH too. However it's basically autoconcede against Warriors and Priests. It's really a meta call... going from D5 to Legend in the past few days for example, DH was the only real constant. Warriors seem to come and go in waves or something. Some days they're nowhere to be seen, some days you face 5 in a row.
An opposite meta call for me has been Highlander Hunter. It doesn't do as good against DH and even worse Face Hunter, that usually out-rush it. But it does better vs Warrior and Priest while still having good chances against Rogue.
0
Yeah, also a lot of warriors are running Grom now too, and more controllish list even Kargath and Deathwing Aspect. You also forgot Heistbaron lol, and the list goes up if we add the Galakronds, not to mention that since you're counting the Mage stuff, they may not be top tier or seen every game but... you might as well add the whole package (Amazing Reno, Kalegcos, sometimes Evocation on top of the ones you mentioned). Also Paladin may suck right now but if you encounter one you can be 100% sure he's running Murgle whatsitcalled regardless of the archetype. edit: oh and Soul Mirror too!
Preeetty sure there are way more class legendary in the meta right now than neutrals (which I consider a really good thing by the way!)
0
Hey there! Do you have a list? I'm sure I'll be missing something from earlier expansions (I have basically nothing from rastakhan and boomsday) but I do have Maly and Emperor :D
0
Lol I wish I had a fucking idea of what's going to happen with Rogue in any given game...
I have the exact opposite problem. I have zero issues losing against DH, because at least he wins with cards he deliberately put in his deck, and his plays turn by turn are predictable - I know that turn 4 he'll probably play Satyr + hero power, or that turn 5 Twin Slice + Glaivebound is a possibility etc. - which doesn't mean they're made weak by being predictable, but at least my choices in what to play matter, if I have say 2 plays that are valid in a vacuum in a given turn, knowing what I can expect from him on the next makes a world of difference strategically. I may get crushed by turn 6, but at least it feels like I'm playing Hearthstone.
Against Rogue, good luck playing around a Winged Guardian they pulled out of
their assPharaoh Cat, or that Earth Elemental they Bamboozled out of a 2-drop, or even just a taunt-lackey messing up your trades in the early game. Complete RNG clown fiesta.1
The Stonetusk Boar combos are faster and more consistent, you may want to check this deck https://www.hearthpwn.com/linkout?remoteUrl=https%3a%2f%2fwww.hearthstonetopdecks.com%2fdecks%2fboar-hunter-akatsu-ashes-of-outland%2f
The Boar combo package (2x Scavenger's, Boars, Scrapshots, Ramkahens) is also good enough to work stand-alone in hybrid decks as long as you don't have other beasts of course, like this one (not mine, not tacking credit here) https://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/1345464-tempo-boar-hunter-legend-deck-65-win-rate-not-otk
I actually got legend on EU with that hybrid, as long as you are not facing too many Warriors it really does work, although it can be a bit inconsistent at times. But dropping Ram + two 4/4 Boars on turn 5 and going face against a DH that suddenly has to start trading is a feeling that's worth the troubles lol
I'm experimenting now with a combo package that includes Zixor, Scavenger's, 2x Diving Gryphon, 2x Ramkahens, 1x Thundra and 1x Webreaver - you're basically guaranteed to draw the Prime by turn 8 with those double tutors, I even got an OTK charge combo with a 0-cost Thundra in one game too... we'll see lol.
2
No it's not the same scenario, your initial assumption is completely faulty because DH can't ALWAYS clear your board on the same turn she's played. I'd be careful of calling "silly" other people opinions when you're completely overlooking some obvious facts yourself and only considering the best case scenario.
Again, DH right now can't always clear your board on the same turn she plays her. He can only do that with previous board presence OR a previously equipped Warglaives most of the times. So your minions don't always "get cleared anyway" like you're implying, not just by Priestess, if you were ahead and could somehow play around it by putting at least a 4+ health minion on the board, and that's a BIG deal. Also because 1) if he wants to clear the way for Priestess to go face and doesn't have a weapon, he'll at least need to trade some other minions and 2) in the Warglaives case, DH is often forced to take a crapload of face damage in the hope of closing the game with Priestess faster than you can, which is something that can actually backfire against other aggressive classes (especially Hunter).
If Priestess only hit minions, she'd be weaker in some scenarios sure but absolutely bonkers in others. She would basically be a lot better played from behind, a better Reno the Relicologist shooting 6 at minions at the end of every turn and with no deck restriction required. And she'd be WAY more difficult to clear because you won't be able to like trade your surviving minion(s) + a spell, you'd need way more often to remove her completely with cards from your hand.
Any deck that is based on having a board would die more slowly to face damage sure, but it would completely be cut out the game by what's essentially a constant barrage of infinite free board clears every turn, and could basically concede the moment she hits the board.
0
They do have another essential weakness tho, literally anything they can play up to turn 4 (and sometimes even 5) has just 2 HPs. The Frenzied Felwing nerf helped a lot in that regard.
If you take away their card drawing strength, literally drawing a 2-dmg AOE on time + being able to cleanly deal with Glaivebound or Priestess later would completely ensure victory every time. It's exactly what happens with Murloc Pala if they don't find Coldlight Seer, and the reason why that deck mostly sucks right now.
0
Great analogy, imagine the opposite now, making her an infinitely better Reno that shoots 6 only at minions at the end of every turn and with no deck restriction required... while being a 6/7 instead of a 4/6. Basically insta-concede for every board-based non-control deck as soon as she hits the board
8
Why do people keep mentioning this like it would be a nerf? It would actually make her more consistent at clearing minions and a buff in most scenarios...
When DH plays an early Priestess I'm usually PRAYING that she mostly hits face and leaves alone my 3/2s or whatever, so that I can either trade into her or remove her with a spell while keeping my board. Or when I force a DH to play a Priestess onto a board with something like a 4/4 or a 5/5, which are basically guaranteed to survive, that's usually a game I'm gonna win. If she targeted only minions, she'd clear those 100% and would be much stronger in those scenarios.
The only nerf that makes sense is making her effect one time only, but I think the real problem is the ability to cheat her out on turn 5. That's just unmanageable most of the times.
0
This is where I think we're not understanding each other, the thing is, imho Tempo DH negates the Outcast restriction exactly like Rogue negates the drawbacks of those "bad" invoke cards (by her invoke being so good and synergistic with the rest of her gameplan and by the payoff being outrageous). Outcast is actually a pretty restricting condition in itself, if you ever try building a midrange / controll-ish / Big Demon DH, or played the pre-nerf OTK deck, you'll see just how easily a card like Skull gets stuck in your hand in between an Inner Demon and a Priestess. And keep in mind that non-Outcasted Skull is garbage, no deck would play 6-mana draw-3. This is exactly why any other DH archetype is bad right now.
Basically all the strong decks for any class right now work that way, pick some outrageous build-around cards with a condition that seems restrictive (but guess what it actually isn't) and completely negate it in some way. In that regard, DH is just like the others (except that at least to me DH is actually less infuriating because at least he crushes you with cards that he actually put in his f-ing deck, contrary to Rogue)