I am a bit confused with the HS community as a whole on how they decide wat is a 'scum bag' class/deck and wat is not. I can't help but to feel a strong sense of hypocritical behaviour on the parts of many HS players. Why is it ok for a Mage to freeze your minions and hit your dome turn after turn with spells until your dead, but Hunters are scum for using that exact same tactic?
And don't say its Hunter hero power that is the problem because Mages use the same type of hero power yet they get away with acting like retarded face smorkers. I see a double standard at work in the HS community and I do not get why this is...
Maybe that crap works at rank 10 or wherever but at the competitive level there is a lot of trading that has to go on, even as tempo mage. The only deck that has ever been able to completely ignore the board is hunter.
You bring up an excellent point. I am only rank 1 player so if it changes in Legend then I am ignorant, but I highly doubt that tempo mage is any different at Legend than it is at rank 1. The only two Mage classes that deserve respect are Freeze & Echo, the other three are nothing more than glorified face retards that get defended by people like you who pilot them.
Well, face mage is not accurate though. Freeze mage is more face mage then tempo mage in a way.
But I agree that I would not call it tempo mage but Flamewaker Mage, since flame waker warped the whole deck around it and tempo plays are more often then not ignored so that a flame waker can be played more safely and with bigger impact.
Tempo Mages use a Tempo advantage like Zoolocks. Against most enemies they have to use many of their spells and creatures to trade. And you have to make the right decissions in difference to face hunter, who just tries to play on curve and only stop to attack your face, if a taunt is in the way. But of course if you play a heavy control deck the mage could decide just to hit your face, instead of dying in the late game, what you can do with many decks which aren't designed for rushing your enemy down.
Turn one Mage plays Wyrm, turn two Apprentice, you have no way to answer that apprentice or wyrm just yet, from turn three on its all missles, frostbolts and fire balls. By turn 5-6 you're dead, this is the problem with the average HS player like yourself and everyone who defends Face Mages, you all hold a grudge against Hunters that recked you so hard on ladder you fail to see the other classes that are using the exact same tactic.
Until people like you 'Mister Smith change your way of thinking, HS will never be anything but a cluster fuck of aggro decks just trying to get to legend and missing the whole point of having fun and learning to pilot all four deck types. I myself have been guilty of jumping on my Hunter to beat down pros that just have more skill then I do, but I main Control Warrior & Control Paladin and would like to see more 'Control style play on ladder.
Anyone including yourself who says that they have not been frustrated and jumped on their Hunter to gain a few easy ranks is a plain out 'liar.
Here's the main difference between the two classes at the higher ranks.
Tempo Mage: Yes, you can technically go face and win a fair amount of matches, but there are several circumstances against midrange decks where the tempo mage has to make valuable trades or they will not have the momentum necessary to win those games. In fact that's why the deck is classified as tempo because it requires you to incorporate other 'offensive' strategies because the non-face attacks are sometimes better than the face attacks.
Face Hunter: In MOST scenarios, it is ALWAYS correct to go face no matter what the circumstances are. Even if there is a great trade, it is probably correct to go face and completely ignore the board. Very rarely (in some mirror match) would you have to trade 1-2 minions, but often more than not, you can feel safe by just hitting the face. In fact, even if you make the mistake to go face when you should trade in those rare circumstances, you'll probably be fine.
Conclusion: Face Hunter is more hated by the community because it rewards you for going face even in situations that may require trading while Tempo Mage requires some trading. Albeit, the trading is not as required compared to most other decks, but it is still more 'skilled' than face hunter.
wow so much salt here ... the dead sea whould die of envy :D
I LOVE MAGE - and I play all types of mage decks, i´m average player , hoering at the ranks 3-5 every season playing like an hour a day.
"God" Draws and bad matchups can kill your mood everyday, so you have to live with it or tech for it.
I like to play more the control type (pre flamewaker) type or the strifecro grinder mage, but when i start to get beaten down by face/aggro, like start of season, then its: out with biger minions and welcome explosive sheeps and zombie chows ...
For a 15 minutes break, i toy arround with a tempo/flamewaker mage as the games are faster, but its far from OP in all matchups (maybe i need to imp´rove - dunno LOL) ...
Think Freeze mage, and not tempo, is the most frustrating game you can have as you just watch the turns frozen ... and out from nowhere youre dead :(
So lets try to be less salty for others luck (or skill or ...) and try to improve our own game ... All decks have weaknesses and hard counters ...
Just my two cents :)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
(sorry for any missssssspels - not a native english speaker + fat fingers)
Not hating Lexaduna, I am waiting for someone to explain why a deck like Face Mage ( Tempo Mage as you call it ) kills you by turn 6-7 max because all they do is go to your face with spells & the few minions they do have on the board is considered 'Tempo by the HS community.
How on Earth is: turn one Wyrm, turn two Apprentice, turn three missles followed by bolts, turn four fire ball then smash face with wyrm & apprentice to finish you off in any way Tempo? You may get lucky some games if they decide to drop a Drake or Waker but chances are they will very often just hit your face until your dead.
I cannot understand why so many are defending a sleezy tactic yet choose to degrade Hunters for using the same way of killing their opponent.
Tempo decks are decks that take Tempo and push at you with it all game until you show enough weakness for them to snowball and kill you with it. If your weakness shows up at turn 1, then that means that's when Tempo mage will kill you.
The difference is that you can kill a hunter without even stealing their tempo by just stalling. You can literally ruin a face hunter by just taunts and healing over and over until they run out of cards, then just casually start whacking them until they die. It's why a face hunter will tend to concede once a deathlord shows up: they don't have enough burn to remove it and your other taunts and, probably, that healbot you are also holding.
You can't do that vs Tempo. Tempo is only worries about threats. If you stall a Tempo deck but don't remove their Tempo, all they'll do is ramp up. Their mana wyrms become 5/3, their water elementals come out and, eventually, you start seeing Dr. Boom and Rag and are doing 10+ damage a turn in late game. They have no problem using fireballs to kill a sludge belcher so long as they maintain Tempo. They have no problem trading since they aren't ruining their win condition. They don't HAVE to trade: if you are weak enough for them to snowball, they will go face and kill you. But if you aren't weak, they'll keep pressuring until you are. THAT is a Tempo deck.
Duranor has a good point though that flamewaker has sort of hybridized the deck in a way. I know when I use the deck now I'm spending turns not threatening so much as waiting for good combos. Thus it's hybrided more into a Combo deck nowadays with Tempo abilities. I'm actually wondering if it's worthwhile in the long term. It just feels odd at times, sort of like decks that get TOO big on Juggler spamming. Still, it's not a face deck.
A deck that hits your face instead of your minions is NOT a face deck. EVERY SINGLE DECK that has Tempo will hit your face if they aren't foolish. Deck type determines WHEN they will get Tempo and WHEN they will hit your face. You don't spend all day every day just whacking down minions that aren't true threats. Card advantage is used to get Board Advantange. Board Advantage is used to get Tempo. But once you have Tempo, you use that to make the kill. Don't use Tempo to go backwards and don't expect your opponent to do the same.
And don't call a deck that follows this a 'face deck' and spit on it.
The problem here isn't the conception of Tempo Mage, it's the perception of Face Hunter.
It's nearly always correct to go Face and the game will rarely punish you very severely for making the mistake of going face over trading? Really? I mean, people honestly believe this? Say I play T1 Leper Gnome, Zoo opponent stupidly Coins Knife Juggler because he believes Hunters always go face, then I play T2 Scientist and go Face instead of clearing Juggler, honestly there are that many people out there who believe that play isn't going to get severly punished? Or say I've got Juggler and a Haunted Creeper on board with Abusive in hand, and my opponent has Flamewakeropposite me. There are that many people who believe that Abusive on Creeper and going Face is only marginally worse than clearing Flamewaker?
Honestly, I have no idea how this idea can get spread other than pure saltiness. It's like these people have never seen a VOD of Face Hunter played at the pro level, or even played against a Face Hunter higher than Rank 12. Yeah, Face Hunter's cards are all designed to work as damage dealers when drawn off the top of the deck. Where the idea comes from that you can just abandon your brains and leave high-value targets on board, I have no idea.
The thing about "tempo mage" as an archetype is that right now it represents a range of decks. There are faster ones and there are slower ones. The fast ones generally have less reach while the slower ones are more reliant on flamewaker shenanigans to wipe people out. The goal of the tempo mage as I see it is to simultaneously produce threats while dealing with your opponents board in the early game to snowball to victory. Mage has always had access to one of the biggest one drop threats in the game, mad scientist gets the most value in mage where it's deathrattle functions as "draw two cards preparation and a secret" and they get some of the best removal cards in the game (flamecannon, frostbolt, fireball) so it's no wonder so many people are struggling to slog through all the early threats, secrets and answers to which mage has access.
You never jumped on your Hunter to get a few fast ranks huh? Liar!
There are some of us who really never have done it. I play a very slow Hunter, it's a slog and I have to work hard for every win I get. I have never hopped on the face train to get a few fast ranks. Some of us really haven't decided to partake in such a disgraceful deck.
Because it's just not the same tactic. The face mage was a tactic but isn't played anymore. The Tempo mage has a different strategy your scenario is not the regular outcome, because the mana curve of tempo mages is usually higher. Against most decks they play reactive with flamecannons, counterspell ...
Do you also call a midrange (combo) druid a face druid because that is what he does against hunter to have a chance ?
You never jumped on your Hunter to get a few fast ranks huh? Liar!
There are some of us who really never have done it. I play a very slow Hunter, it's a slog and I have to work hard for every win I get. I have never hopped on the face train to get a few fast ranks. Some of us really haven't decided to partake in such a disgraceful deck.
The Idea that face decks are bad is so stupid I personally prefer control decks and mostly play those (that's the reason hunter is my only class that hasn't reached level 60 yet), however even I know that a card game isn't balanced if it doesn't allow for aggro and control decks to work equally well.
Good for you for playing control hunter however not everyone wants to waste their time with an obvious sub-par deck.
Personally I dislike the assumption that face decks are played ONLY for fast progression. Myself I like playing against the meta. WHatever deck I feel the meta is weak against will be the deck I play. If that deck is face hunter then that's what I play. If that deck is control priest then I'll play that. Whatever nets the better win rate.
If that means I'm spending 15 ranks just going face then..well.. start putting deathlords in your deck.. or at least don't spend 4 turns hero powering.
Ty for your response, this is 100% accurate and I could not agree more. But why can those Tempo Mages that have cards like 'Waker be considered aggro? After all they do little to no trading and go face 90% of the time.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I am a bit confused with the HS community as a whole on how they decide wat is a 'scum bag' class/deck and wat is not. I can't help but to feel a strong sense of hypocritical behaviour on the parts of many HS players. Why is it ok for a Mage to freeze your minions and hit your dome turn after turn with spells until your dead, but Hunters are scum for using that exact same tactic?
And don't say its Hunter hero power that is the problem because Mages use the same type of hero power yet they get away with acting like retarded face smorkers. I see a double standard at work in the HS community and I do not get why this is...
Um mages trade with minions? Hunters just SMorc you...
PRAISE THE SUN!
\[T]/\[T]/\[T]/\[T]/\[T]/\[T]/\[T]/\[T]/\[T]/\[T]/\[T]/
Maybe that crap works at rank 10 or wherever but at the competitive level there is a lot of trading that has to go on, even as tempo mage. The only deck that has ever been able to completely ignore the board is hunter.
Physika #1165
You bring up an excellent point. I am only rank 1 player so if it changes in Legend then I am ignorant, but I highly doubt that tempo mage is any different at Legend than it is at rank 1. The only two Mage classes that deserve respect are Freeze & Echo, the other three are nothing more than glorified face retards that get defended by people like you who pilot them.
Well, face mage is not accurate though. Freeze mage is more face mage then tempo mage in a way.
But I agree that I would not call it tempo mage but Flamewaker Mage, since flame waker warped the whole deck around it and tempo plays are more often then not ignored so that a flame waker can be played more safely and with bigger impact.
Tempo Mages use a Tempo advantage like Zoolocks. Against most enemies they have to use many of their spells and creatures to trade. And you have to make the right decissions in difference to face hunter, who just tries to play on curve and only stop to attack your face, if a taunt is in the way. But of course if you play a heavy control deck the mage could decide just to hit your face, instead of dying in the late game, what you can do with many decks which aren't designed for rushing your enemy down.
Here you go, all i have is me at rank 2 but I have no reason to lie about ever being rank 1 five stars.
Turn one Mage plays Wyrm, turn two Apprentice, you have no way to answer that apprentice or wyrm just yet, from turn three on its all missles, frostbolts and fire balls. By turn 5-6 you're dead, this is the problem with the average HS player like yourself and everyone who defends Face Mages, you all hold a grudge against Hunters that recked you so hard on ladder you fail to see the other classes that are using the exact same tactic.
Until people like you 'Mister Smith change your way of thinking, HS will never be anything but a cluster fuck of aggro decks just trying to get to legend and missing the whole point of having fun and learning to pilot all four deck types. I myself have been guilty of jumping on my Hunter to beat down pros that just have more skill then I do, but I main Control Warrior & Control Paladin and would like to see more 'Control style play on ladder.
Anyone including yourself who says that they have not been frustrated and jumped on their Hunter to gain a few easy ranks is a plain out 'liar.
There is already thread for you man. Post there your hatred and move on.
Here's the main difference between the two classes at the higher ranks.
Tempo Mage: Yes, you can technically go face and win a fair amount of matches, but there are several circumstances against midrange decks where the tempo mage has to make valuable trades or they will not have the momentum necessary to win those games. In fact that's why the deck is classified as tempo because it requires you to incorporate other 'offensive' strategies because the non-face attacks are sometimes better than the face attacks.
Face Hunter: In MOST scenarios, it is ALWAYS correct to go face no matter what the circumstances are. Even if there is a great trade, it is probably correct to go face and completely ignore the board. Very rarely (in some mirror match) would you have to trade 1-2 minions, but often more than not, you can feel safe by just hitting the face. In fact, even if you make the mistake to go face when you should trade in those rare circumstances, you'll probably be fine.
Conclusion: Face Hunter is more hated by the community because it rewards you for going face even in situations that may require trading while Tempo Mage requires some trading. Albeit, the trading is not as required compared to most other decks, but it is still more 'skilled' than face hunter.
wow so much salt here ... the dead sea whould die of envy :D
I LOVE MAGE - and I play all types of mage decks, i´m average player , hoering at the ranks 3-5 every season playing like an hour a day.
"God" Draws and bad matchups can kill your mood everyday, so you have to live with it or tech for it.
I like to play more the control type (pre flamewaker) type or the strifecro grinder mage, but when i start to get beaten down by face/aggro, like start of season, then its: out with biger minions and welcome explosive sheeps and zombie chows ...
For a 15 minutes break, i toy arround with a tempo/flamewaker mage as the games are faster, but its far from OP in all matchups (maybe i need to imp´rove - dunno LOL) ...
Think Freeze mage, and not tempo, is the most frustrating game you can have as you just watch the turns frozen ... and out from nowhere youre dead :(
So lets try to be less salty for others luck (or skill or ...) and try to improve our own game ... All decks have weaknesses and hard counters ...
Just my two cents :)
(sorry for any missssssspels - not a native english speaker + fat fingers)
Not hating Lexaduna, I am waiting for someone to explain why a deck like Face Mage ( Tempo Mage as you call it ) kills you by turn 6-7 max because all they do is go to your face with spells & the few minions they do have on the board is considered 'Tempo by the HS community.
How on Earth is: turn one Wyrm, turn two Apprentice, turn three missles followed by bolts, turn four fire ball then smash face with wyrm & apprentice to finish you off in any way Tempo? You may get lucky some games if they decide to drop a Drake or Waker but chances are they will very often just hit your face until your dead.
I cannot understand why so many are defending a sleezy tactic yet choose to degrade Hunters for using the same way of killing their opponent.
You never jumped on your Hunter to get a few fast ranks huh? Liar!
Tempo decks are decks that take Tempo and push at you with it all game until you show enough weakness for them to snowball and kill you with it. If your weakness shows up at turn 1, then that means that's when Tempo mage will kill you.
The difference is that you can kill a hunter without even stealing their tempo by just stalling. You can literally ruin a face hunter by just taunts and healing over and over until they run out of cards, then just casually start whacking them until they die. It's why a face hunter will tend to concede once a deathlord shows up: they don't have enough burn to remove it and your other taunts and, probably, that healbot you are also holding.
You can't do that vs Tempo. Tempo is only worries about threats. If you stall a Tempo deck but don't remove their Tempo, all they'll do is ramp up. Their mana wyrms become 5/3, their water elementals come out and, eventually, you start seeing Dr. Boom and Rag and are doing 10+ damage a turn in late game. They have no problem using fireballs to kill a sludge belcher so long as they maintain Tempo. They have no problem trading since they aren't ruining their win condition. They don't HAVE to trade: if you are weak enough for them to snowball, they will go face and kill you. But if you aren't weak, they'll keep pressuring until you are. THAT is a Tempo deck.
Duranor has a good point though that flamewaker has sort of hybridized the deck in a way. I know when I use the deck now I'm spending turns not threatening so much as waiting for good combos. Thus it's hybrided more into a Combo deck nowadays with Tempo abilities. I'm actually wondering if it's worthwhile in the long term. It just feels odd at times, sort of like decks that get TOO big on Juggler spamming. Still, it's not a face deck.
A deck that hits your face instead of your minions is NOT a face deck. EVERY SINGLE DECK that has Tempo will hit your face if they aren't foolish. Deck type determines WHEN they will get Tempo and WHEN they will hit your face. You don't spend all day every day just whacking down minions that aren't true threats. Card advantage is used to get Board Advantange. Board Advantage is used to get Tempo. But once you have Tempo, you use that to make the kill. Don't use Tempo to go backwards and don't expect your opponent to do the same.
And don't call a deck that follows this a 'face deck' and spit on it.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
The problem here isn't the conception of Tempo Mage, it's the perception of Face Hunter.
It's nearly always correct to go Face and the game will rarely punish you very severely for making the mistake of going face over trading? Really? I mean, people honestly believe this? Say I play T1 Leper Gnome, Zoo opponent stupidly Coins Knife Juggler because he believes Hunters always go face, then I play T2 Scientist and go Face instead of clearing Juggler, honestly there are that many people out there who believe that play isn't going to get severly punished? Or say I've got Juggler and a Haunted Creeper on board with Abusive in hand, and my opponent has Flamewakeropposite me. There are that many people who believe that Abusive on Creeper and going Face is only marginally worse than clearing Flamewaker?
Honestly, I have no idea how this idea can get spread other than pure saltiness. It's like these people have never seen a VOD of Face Hunter played at the pro level, or even played against a Face Hunter higher than Rank 12. Yeah, Face Hunter's cards are all designed to work as damage dealers when drawn off the top of the deck. Where the idea comes from that you can just abandon your brains and leave high-value targets on board, I have no idea.
The thing about "tempo mage" as an archetype is that right now it represents a range of decks. There are faster ones and there are slower ones. The fast ones generally have less reach while the slower ones are more reliant on flamewaker shenanigans to wipe people out. The goal of the tempo mage as I see it is to simultaneously produce threats while dealing with your opponents board in the early game to snowball to victory. Mage has always had access to one of the biggest one drop threats in the game, mad scientist gets the most value in mage where it's deathrattle functions as "draw two cards preparation and a secret" and they get some of the best removal cards in the game (flamecannon, frostbolt, fireball) so it's no wonder so many people are struggling to slog through all the early threats, secrets and answers to which mage has access.
There are some of us who really never have done it. I play a very slow Hunter, it's a slog and I have to work hard for every win I get. I have never hopped on the face train to get a few fast ranks. Some of us really haven't decided to partake in such a disgraceful deck.
Rawr I'm a dinosaur
Because it's just not the same tactic. The face mage was a tactic but isn't played anymore. The Tempo mage has a different strategy your scenario is not the regular outcome, because the mana curve of tempo mages is usually higher. Against most decks they play reactive with flamecannons, counterspell ...
Do you also call a midrange (combo) druid a face druid because that is what he does against hunter to have a chance ?
Here is a example for a face mage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7pKJd0c_tg
Personally I dislike the assumption that face decks are played ONLY for fast progression. Myself I like playing against the meta. WHatever deck I feel the meta is weak against will be the deck I play. If that deck is face hunter then that's what I play. If that deck is control priest then I'll play that. Whatever nets the better win rate.
If that means I'm spending 15 ranks just going face then..well.. start putting deathlords in your deck.. or at least don't spend 4 turns hero powering.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
Ty for your response, this is 100% accurate and I could not agree more. But why can those Tempo Mages that have cards like 'Waker be considered aggro? After all they do little to no trading and go face 90% of the time.