So there where 2 main reasons for which the wild format was created.
- 1 To make the game more friendly towards new players by reducing the amount of cards they need to get
- 2 To open up design freedom, by not having to worry about too many interactions that would break the game (like what just happened with hysteria)
So by design wild is supposed to have a huge power creep because new and old decks will always have access to an increasing pool of tools that allow to optimize decks more as time passes, this is a fact. So limiting new prints in order to maintain balance in wild (Eg. The Hysteria nerf) is unacceptable for Standard players, and defeats one of the main purposes of the Wild format.
However Wild players do have a right for balance in their format. If they do not balance wild in any way the format just becomes an unplayable trashcan, and they might as well just delete cards as soon as they rotate because no one would play wild.
We just saw that for some reason they are unable to keep wild nerfs to wild only and in my opinion this is the breaking point. Because this means future prints are at risk of being hindered by wild balance. So here I propose 2 ways to maintain balance in wild while maintaining its purpose:
1. Set rotations: Keeping a well thought set rotation including only wild sets plus the newest expansion could help keeping the format's power creep at bay. However some people like this power creep and is the main reason they choose wild over Standard so I don't think this is the best solution.
2.Ban/limited lists: This is what other card games use to balance their games and I think Blizzard should implement it to the wild format. We already have seen certain cards being banned from certain tavern Brawls or game modes (self sharpening sword in duels) So I don't understand why they wouldn't just use this for problem cards in wild. Cards that get banned don't even have to be permanently banned, they can get removed from the ban list if they seem ok for certain metas. Also having a limited list (cards you can only have 1 copy of in your deck outside of it's rarity) could help have a finer adjustment to balance. (Naga Sea Witch would probably be fine at 5 mana if people could only run 1 copy of it)
I think you missed one important point during the last part of your argument. A lot of wild players are f2p, me included, and a ban list would kill me as a player. Being f2p I don't have a huge collection, I still wanted to make a transition to the wild mode as I happened to fall in love with kingsbane rogue deck. Now kingsbane rogue is one of the best aggro decks to play, it is extremely flexible and easy to play, in fact I have like 5 variation of the same deck (with some cards added to counter some matchups). I'm 100% sure kingsbane as a card would be banned, that that would kill my account; it would be faster for me to start a brand new account than trying to recover on that one. For me balancing cards is the best way to go, even if it ruins some standard interaction, because a ban list would make the game even more pay2win. I apologize for any grammar mistakes, since I'm not a native speaker.
I won't assume that you created a deck based on Hysteria, thus you're salty for the nerf and I'll anwer as best as I can.
As an exclusively Wild player (being playing from Beta, so I got all the cards. I played Standard up until Boomsday) I'd like to say that it infuriates us, when a card is nerfed because it's broken on Standard. Sure Edwin VanCleef was a bit oppresive, but did anyone ask what Wild Rogue players have to say, now that they lose a strong opener, against other strong openers? Obviously not. Now, I am not saying that they should have asked us, but the same should apply for Standard. If a card, breaks the game, no matter the format, it should be adressed and changed if necessary.
1. Well, the Wild set rotation won't work and I can explain in a very detailed manner why, but I won't do it right now. I've talked about this in reddit in the past and it doesn't work and even if it did work, it would be far from Blizzard's goals on Wild. A more stale format where everyone can play their all time favorites, while Standard is the fresh format, with constant changes. HOWEVER, if they create in the future another "Wild" format, they will be able to do certain rotations. Like MtG's endeavor with Frontier on TCG and Historic on OCG.
2. Bans can be issued it's true. For me, it would be decent if bans were issued (in case the Wild format breaks) and once the card rotates from Standard, then nerf it and unban it. I don't think that being able to have 1 copy of a card will change anything. Decks are small 30 cards and what happens if they still draw Naga Sea Witch? You lose. That doesn't seem fair to me. Limit would make sense if it requires 2 copies of a card to pull off some broken shenanigans. But this would apply probably to giants. Apart from that, I wouldn't push for limitations.
All in all, I think that Blizzard should test cards using actual Playtesters, instead of the players.
we just need sideboards/sidedecks or whatever they are called...
the main problem now is that there are some decks dominating the wild meta (secret mage, big priest, KB rogue, and whatever deck is more out there...) so there are only 1 deck that dominates the meta per class... so when you can have a sideboard with cards for a specific deck and you can counter that deck...
the way to make it work isnt very hard at all... while creating the deck you can add in 5 cards to a sideboard slot, and when the game starts (when you know your opponents class) you can select which cards to put in, and you can scroll through your deck to select cards to put out..
this way people can sideboard for oppresive decks... more people sideboard against that deck, the deck gets worse winrates, is played less often, other decks come out... people sideboard for the new decks, and so the meta keeps changing wihout blizzard needing to nerf cards...
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To live is to suffer, to survive is to find meaning in the suffer!
So limiting new prints in order to maintain balance in wild (Eg. The Hysteria nerf) is unacceptable for Standard players
Lol, srsly? Wild players also don't deserve standard cards being nerfed, if they are playable but not OP in wild. It's not like standard players deserve more than wild players, despite Blizzard behaving like that.
If anything, there should be a wild format with only commons and rares. This might even be something they consider right now, you could interpret the latest AMAs that way.
Ban and limited lists do very little for wild. They might reduce the consistency without killing decks but the difference in power level between the top 4 decks of the format and the rest is absurd. Also, what the f2p person wrote above.
If you really want to have a wild format with no impact on standard, you should print only very few standard cards that are good enough for wild, and barely improve existing decks. The power creep in standard is too much. Alternatively, every new set could have a rather low-power standard cards section and some high-power cards that are only legal in wild (maybe this would even make wild more interesting to players).
Regarding the ban of Self-Sharpening Sword or the Runaway dragon in arena, you can't draft them/add them to your deck, but you can find them in buckets in Duels/through random card generation in arena (e.g. Priest Studies). Blizzard is terrible at banning cards in formats, and this is completely ridiculous.
And regarding sideboards: Please tell me 1 card you can board against secret mage that makes any sense right now. Eater of Secrets on turn 4, after they triggered Rigged Faire Game and played 2 more secrets for 0 and 2 0-cost 5/5s? yeah, lol. Cards should not be able to be reduced below 1 mana, period.
I wish they revamped the Casual format, so homebrewers could face homebrewers. I realize it's too hard to make the algoritm to make it work, but it would make a lot of people very happy.
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So there where 2 main reasons for which the wild format was created.
- 1 To make the game more friendly towards new players by reducing the amount of cards they need to get
- 2 To open up design freedom, by not having to worry about too many interactions that would break the game (like what just happened with hysteria)
So by design wild is supposed to have a huge power creep because new and old decks will always have access to an increasing pool of tools that allow to optimize decks more as time passes, this is a fact. So limiting new prints in order to maintain balance in wild (Eg. The Hysteria nerf) is unacceptable for Standard players, and defeats one of the main purposes of the Wild format.
However Wild players do have a right for balance in their format. If they do not balance wild in any way the format just becomes an unplayable trashcan, and they might as well just delete cards as soon as they rotate because no one would play wild.
We just saw that for some reason they are unable to keep wild nerfs to wild only and in my opinion this is the breaking point. Because this means future prints are at risk of being hindered by wild balance. So here I propose 2 ways to maintain balance in wild while maintaining its purpose:
1. Set rotations: Keeping a well thought set rotation including only wild sets plus the newest expansion could help keeping the format's power creep at bay. However some people like this power creep and is the main reason they choose wild over Standard so I don't think this is the best solution.
2.Ban/limited lists: This is what other card games use to balance their games and I think Blizzard should implement it to the wild format. We already have seen certain cards being banned from certain tavern Brawls or game modes (self sharpening sword in duels) So I don't understand why they wouldn't just use this for problem cards in wild. Cards that get banned don't even have to be permanently banned, they can get removed from the ban list if they seem ok for certain metas. Also having a limited list (cards you can only have 1 copy of in your deck outside of it's rarity) could help have a finer adjustment to balance. (Naga Sea Witch would probably be fine at 5 mana if people could only run 1 copy of it)
I want to hear other people's thoughts on this.
I think you missed one important point during the last part of your argument. A lot of wild players are f2p, me included, and a ban list would kill me as a player. Being f2p I don't have a huge collection, I still wanted to make a transition to the wild mode as I happened to fall in love with kingsbane rogue deck. Now kingsbane rogue is one of the best aggro decks to play, it is extremely flexible and easy to play, in fact I have like 5 variation of the same deck (with some cards added to counter some matchups). I'm 100% sure kingsbane as a card would be banned, that that would kill my account; it would be faster for me to start a brand new account than trying to recover on that one. For me balancing cards is the best way to go, even if it ruins some standard interaction, because a ban list would make the game even more pay2win. I apologize for any grammar mistakes, since I'm not a native speaker.
I won't assume that you created a deck based on Hysteria, thus you're salty for the nerf and I'll anwer as best as I can.
As an exclusively Wild player (being playing from Beta, so I got all the cards. I played Standard up until Boomsday) I'd like to say that it infuriates us, when a card is nerfed because it's broken on Standard. Sure Edwin VanCleef was a bit oppresive, but did anyone ask what Wild Rogue players have to say, now that they lose a strong opener, against other strong openers? Obviously not. Now, I am not saying that they should have asked us, but the same should apply for Standard. If a card, breaks the game, no matter the format, it should be adressed and changed if necessary.
1. Well, the Wild set rotation won't work and I can explain in a very detailed manner why, but I won't do it right now. I've talked about this in reddit in the past and it doesn't work and even if it did work, it would be far from Blizzard's goals on Wild. A more stale format where everyone can play their all time favorites, while Standard is the fresh format, with constant changes. HOWEVER, if they create in the future another "Wild" format, they will be able to do certain rotations. Like MtG's endeavor with Frontier on TCG and Historic on OCG.
2. Bans can be issued it's true. For me, it would be decent if bans were issued (in case the Wild format breaks) and once the card rotates from Standard, then nerf it and unban it. I don't think that being able to have 1 copy of a card will change anything. Decks are small 30 cards and what happens if they still draw Naga Sea Witch? You lose. That doesn't seem fair to me. Limit would make sense if it requires 2 copies of a card to pull off some broken shenanigans. But this would apply probably to giants. Apart from that, I wouldn't push for limitations.
All in all, I think that Blizzard should test cards using actual Playtesters, instead of the players.
we just need sideboards/sidedecks or whatever they are called...
the main problem now is that there are some decks dominating the wild meta (secret mage, big priest, KB rogue, and whatever deck is more out there...) so there are only 1 deck that dominates the meta per class... so when you can have a sideboard with cards for a specific deck and you can counter that deck...
the way to make it work isnt very hard at all... while creating the deck you can add in 5 cards to a sideboard slot, and when the game starts (when you know your opponents class) you can select which cards to put in, and you can scroll through your deck to select cards to put out..
this way people can sideboard for oppresive decks... more people sideboard against that deck, the deck gets worse winrates, is played less often, other decks come out... people sideboard for the new decks, and so the meta keeps changing wihout blizzard needing to nerf cards...
To live is to suffer, to survive is to find meaning in the suffer!
The cards should be considered for both formats.
So far we had 2 nerfs of standard cards because of wild and both present HUGE risk for standard balance in the future.
Darkglare will fueled self damage decks and limit the cards they could print with that effect.
Hysteria limits the cards that activated whenever this minion attacks etc..
Wild main issue right now is secret mage consistency, and I am sure it is not getting nerfed soon because blizzard does not nerf wild quite often
Leave wild as it is, but make a new ranked format..
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/246775-vintage-format#c18
Lol, srsly? Wild players also don't deserve standard cards being nerfed, if they are playable but not OP in wild. It's not like standard players deserve more than wild players, despite Blizzard behaving like that.
If anything, there should be a wild format with only commons and rares. This might even be something they consider right now, you could interpret the latest AMAs that way.
Ban and limited lists do very little for wild. They might reduce the consistency without killing decks but the difference in power level between the top 4 decks of the format and the rest is absurd. Also, what the f2p person wrote above.
If you really want to have a wild format with no impact on standard, you should print only very few standard cards that are good enough for wild, and barely improve existing decks. The power creep in standard is too much. Alternatively, every new set could have a rather low-power standard cards section and some high-power cards that are only legal in wild (maybe this would even make wild more interesting to players).
Regarding the ban of Self-Sharpening Sword or the Runaway dragon in arena, you can't draft them/add them to your deck, but you can find them in buckets in Duels/through random card generation in arena (e.g. Priest Studies). Blizzard is terrible at banning cards in formats, and this is completely ridiculous.
And regarding sideboards: Please tell me 1 card you can board against secret mage that makes any sense right now. Eater of Secrets on turn 4, after they triggered Rigged Faire Game and played 2 more secrets for 0 and 2 0-cost 5/5s? yeah, lol. Cards should not be able to be reduced below 1 mana, period.
I wish they revamped the Casual format, so homebrewers could face homebrewers. I realize it's too hard to make the algoritm to make it work, but it would make a lot of people very happy.