Just started playing Dalaran Heist, 2nd boss seemed to do something silly, casted Conjurer's Calling on a minion that was not a threat:
Ok, I thought that was weird, but possible there may be some AI logic there. But literally the next turn the AI did something even dumber. It cast Conjurer's Call on a minion that definitely had a horrible statline for its price and majority of its power was in the battlecry I already played:
Is anyone else seeing similar issues with the new AI?
AI in the regular mode is pretty bad overall, they leave or give you lethal on many occasions and do silly stuff. Maybe the Heroic mode AI will be smarter :)
I had a game where one of the bosses (he gives you a coin when he copies a card you've played) dropped a card that mills him. I kept thinking it was a Nomi type deck but I proceeded to wipe out his deck with all the amassed coins, and he had no real answers. Not strictly an AI problem but it was pretty weird game play.
Just started playing Dalaran Heist, 2nd boss seemed to do something silly, casted Conjurer's Calling on a minion that was not a threat:
Ok, I thought that was weird, but possible there may be some AI logic there. But literally the next turn the AI did something even dumber. It cast Conjurer's Call on a minion that definitely had a horrible statline for its price and majority of its power was in the battlecry I already played:
Is anyone else seeing similar issues with the new AI?
I had it attack a minion, fail to kill it, and then conjurer's calling the now-damaged minion.
yeah, the AI uses conjurer's calling as a removal, not as a "buff" for your own board. I played the boss that steals the first card you play each turn and he used double conjurer's calling on my 10 drop to give me a full board of stuff. EZ win. I'm sure they'll patch it but it's hard to believe that nobody encountered this in testing.
The boss with the "2 mana play a secret" hero power is super bad too. They dumped their hand every turn without any secrets in play/hero power uses even with minions like Sunreaver Spy who have secret conditionals. Then they started using their hero power on turn 6+ with floating mana when their hand was dumped
Right, but there are legitimate reasons to use it as removal (i.e. minion with "every turn" effect), removing a non-threat to create 2 threats is not one of them. The logic AI uses is as if the AI doesn't know that the spell creates 2 more minions afterwards, as if it's literally just seeing only the first part of the card.
And I also did see other bosses make similar blunders in Dalaran Heist (as you guys report as well). I know HS AI is never as good as a human, but Dalaran Heist AI in particular seems to be dumber than AI from previous adventures.
Some cards just destroy how the AI functions. KT and taunts used to do that, that Ice Pick does that, and soft taunt minions are still a thing the artificial opponents cannot master (leaving Saraad alive or a Flamewaker just to kill something with better stats like a Devilsaur has happened, and that was today).
I wouldn't say it is the Dalaran Heist AI as much as it is HS AI.
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Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health. - Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
I expect the Normal difficulty AI in the first chapter is just intentionally dumber than average. That's acceptable, because they've added an additional difficulty level.
I don't expect this pretty bad AI throughout all chapters and difficulties, but we'll see in the coming weeks.
So, in case you're interested as to why it does that first play, I think I know why.
The folks at Blizzard have tried to teach the computer a few tricks to understand values of cards beyond just stats. For example, if the computer is a mage, would the computer rather have one 3/3 or two 2/1s against it? The total stats are 6 in both cases, but the computer seems to understand that the one-toughness creatures are vulnerable to the mage HP, so it wants the two 2/1s.
So let's say for some reason you have a 3/3 that costs 1 (just go with it, I'm trying to illustrate a point). The computer is running an algorithm to evaluate all possible targets for Conjurer's Calling every turn, and the algorithm is looking at expected values for what happens when you target a 1-cost creature. Perhaps it sees the expected value is around 2 2/1s after the Calling. So now, you've got two separate threads in the computer checklist: The knowledge that 2 2/1s is better to face off with than one 3/3, and the knowledge that two 2/1s are the expected (read, average) result of a Calling on a 1-cost minion.
Us as players add a third and fourth consideration that the computer probably doesn't have programmed well. The third consideration for a human player is, "don't I want to hold this Calling for a better moment, like say a Mountain Giant?". And the fourth and most important consideration is, "even if the average result is 2/1s, how badly can I screw myself if the opponent high rolls?" I have a little experience coding, and I know that the fourth consideration is VERY hard to program. Computers are trained with expected values, and it's difficult to add a second round of decision coding to say, after the averages are calculated, "how bad is the worst case scenario?".
For the record, I have no clue why you would Calling a Keysmith (the second play you posted). I don't have a guess for that one.
By the way, this is a good moment to appreciate professional play at times. A lot of things happen in tournaments that cause the chat to go crazy spamming "skill game" and other such RNG-hating memes. It always amazes me, though, that no one gives the player credit for playing to the outs. A lot of times, when something lucky happens, it's because the player has realized, "I'm in trouble, this is the route to winning anyway, I have to play so that the RNG can save me if it decides to". A lot of times, people will play to outs and they won't hit. But when they do, and everyone decries luck, everyone forgets the ten decisions before the coin flip that allowed the coin flip to be relevant in the first place.
I bring that up because the computer doesn't do that. It is playing the current state of the board with none but the simplest projection into future turns based on what is already in hand and on board, and not at all what is potentially drawn or created on future turns.
Anyway, hope someone found this interesting. AI is a crazy thing. One day we'll get it right.
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I just fought in heroic mode the boss that gains one coin every time it takes damage - including fatigue. Guess what it did once it reached fatigue with a Gadgetzan Auctioneer on board?
Beaten both chapters on Heroic relatively easily. I'm kinda disappointed they weren't more of a challenge. The AI for this adventure seems MUCH worse than the AI for the other dungeon runs...
For example, I had a KT on 5 hp and 2 hp minions on either side of him. AI was targeting him b/c he kept rezzing my minions; makes sense. AI pulls out explosive arrow (deal 5 dmg to a minion and 2 to adjacent ones). I thought "Oh, welp, there goes my KT." Instead, he targeted his lonely stealthed 4/2 panther. Blizzard AI needs some serious help this time.
This awful AI makes the adventure SO boring, and I feel like I'm not getting my money's worth out of it...
I feel stupid for writing up the AI stuff with so much detail above. If that sort of shit is happening, then the program is just broken.
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Just started playing Dalaran Heist, 2nd boss seemed to do something silly, casted Conjurer's Calling on a minion that was not a threat:
Ok, I thought that was weird, but possible there may be some AI logic there. But literally the next turn the AI did something even dumber. It cast Conjurer's Call on a minion that definitely had a horrible statline for its price and majority of its power was in the battlecry I already played:
Is anyone else seeing similar issues with the new AI?
AI in the regular mode is pretty bad overall, they leave or give you lethal on many occasions and do silly stuff. Maybe the Heroic mode AI will be smarter :)
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I had a game where one of the bosses (he gives you a coin when he copies a card you've played) dropped a card that mills him. I kept thinking it was a Nomi type deck but I proceeded to wipe out his deck with all the amassed coins, and he had no real answers. Not strictly an AI problem but it was pretty weird game play.
I encountered one that basicly suicided. An Auchenai Soulpriest on his side and 2hp remaining he cast a Holy Nova. Never seen that from an AI before.
I think that the first chapter (in normal mode) is very easy on purpose, AI seems dull yeah, just to get you to discover the new mechanics and so on.
I played the 2nd chapter and the 7th-8th boss are somewhat more difficult(normal mode).
I also see Kripp is struggling in 8th boss of 2nd chapter, in heroic mode. So I guess that if you want a challenge and better AI go for Heroic mode.
I had it attack a minion, fail to kill it, and then conjurer's calling the now-damaged minion.
This is not a spell the AI uses optimally.
yeah, the AI uses conjurer's calling as a removal, not as a "buff" for your own board. I played the boss that steals the first card you play each turn and he used double conjurer's calling on my 10 drop to give me a full board of stuff. EZ win. I'm sure they'll patch it but it's hard to believe that nobody encountered this in testing.
The boss with the "2 mana play a secret" hero power is super bad too. They dumped their hand every turn without any secrets in play/hero power uses even with minions like Sunreaver Spy who have secret conditionals. Then they started using their hero power on turn 6+ with floating mana when their hand was dumped
Right, but there are legitimate reasons to use it as removal (i.e. minion with "every turn" effect), removing a non-threat to create 2 threats is not one of them. The logic AI uses is as if the AI doesn't know that the spell creates 2 more minions afterwards, as if it's literally just seeing only the first part of the card.
And I also did see other bosses make similar blunders in Dalaran Heist (as you guys report as well). I know HS AI is never as good as a human, but Dalaran Heist AI in particular seems to be dumber than AI from previous adventures.
Some cards just destroy how the AI functions. KT and taunts used to do that, that Ice Pick does that, and soft taunt minions are still a thing the artificial opponents cannot master (leaving Saraad alive or a Flamewaker just to kill something with better stats like a Devilsaur has happened, and that was today).
I wouldn't say it is the Dalaran Heist AI as much as it is HS AI.
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health.
- Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
I expect the Normal difficulty AI in the first chapter is just intentionally dumber than average. That's acceptable, because they've added an additional difficulty level.
I don't expect this pretty bad AI throughout all chapters and difficulties, but we'll see in the coming weeks.
Maybe Conjurer’s looks like a “destroy” spell to the AI?
So, in case you're interested as to why it does that first play, I think I know why.
The folks at Blizzard have tried to teach the computer a few tricks to understand values of cards beyond just stats. For example, if the computer is a mage, would the computer rather have one 3/3 or two 2/1s against it? The total stats are 6 in both cases, but the computer seems to understand that the one-toughness creatures are vulnerable to the mage HP, so it wants the two 2/1s.
So let's say for some reason you have a 3/3 that costs 1 (just go with it, I'm trying to illustrate a point). The computer is running an algorithm to evaluate all possible targets for Conjurer's Calling every turn, and the algorithm is looking at expected values for what happens when you target a 1-cost creature. Perhaps it sees the expected value is around 2 2/1s after the Calling. So now, you've got two separate threads in the computer checklist: The knowledge that 2 2/1s is better to face off with than one 3/3, and the knowledge that two 2/1s are the expected (read, average) result of a Calling on a 1-cost minion.
Us as players add a third and fourth consideration that the computer probably doesn't have programmed well. The third consideration for a human player is, "don't I want to hold this Calling for a better moment, like say a Mountain Giant?". And the fourth and most important consideration is, "even if the average result is 2/1s, how badly can I screw myself if the opponent high rolls?" I have a little experience coding, and I know that the fourth consideration is VERY hard to program. Computers are trained with expected values, and it's difficult to add a second round of decision coding to say, after the averages are calculated, "how bad is the worst case scenario?".
For the record, I have no clue why you would Calling a Keysmith (the second play you posted). I don't have a guess for that one.
By the way, this is a good moment to appreciate professional play at times. A lot of things happen in tournaments that cause the chat to go crazy spamming "skill game" and other such RNG-hating memes. It always amazes me, though, that no one gives the player credit for playing to the outs. A lot of times, when something lucky happens, it's because the player has realized, "I'm in trouble, this is the route to winning anyway, I have to play so that the RNG can save me if it decides to". A lot of times, people will play to outs and they won't hit. But when they do, and everyone decries luck, everyone forgets the ten decisions before the coin flip that allowed the coin flip to be relevant in the first place.
I bring that up because the computer doesn't do that. It is playing the current state of the board with none but the simplest projection into future turns based on what is already in hand and on board, and not at all what is potentially drawn or created on future turns.
Anyway, hope someone found this interesting. AI is a crazy thing. One day we'll get it right.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
I just fought in heroic mode the boss that gains one coin every time it takes damage - including fatigue.
Guess what it did once it reached fatigue with a Gadgetzan Auctioneer on board?
Self-OTK through infinite coins
If you're just now questioning Hearthstone AI, Need I simply point you to Kripp getting the AI to kill itself....
On the first try.
Hearthstone AI will never be good. It's something to just accept. Nothing wrong with that, just a reality of how it is.
Final Boss in heroic of the first wing kept playing weapon buffs without having a weapon equiped.
The IA feels a lot dumber than lets say DR IA.
Beaten both chapters on Heroic relatively easily. I'm kinda disappointed they weren't more of a challenge. The AI for this adventure seems MUCH worse than the AI for the other dungeon runs...
For example, I had a KT on 5 hp and 2 hp minions on either side of him. AI was targeting him b/c he kept rezzing my minions; makes sense. AI pulls out explosive arrow (deal 5 dmg to a minion and 2 to adjacent ones). I thought "Oh, welp, there goes my KT." Instead, he targeted his lonely stealthed 4/2 panther. Blizzard AI needs some serious help this time.
This awful AI makes the adventure SO boring, and I feel like I'm not getting my money's worth out of it...
Wow KernalColonel,
I feel stupid for writing up the AI stuff with so much detail above. If that sort of shit is happening, then the program is just broken.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.