On deck trackers as automation: The rules prohibit "bots; i.e. any code and/or software, not expressly authorized by Blizzard, that allows the automated control of a Game, or any other feature of the Platform, e.g. the automated control of a character in a Game;" The rules do not prohibit "automation" as a concept. Deck trackers do not automate the game, playing of the game, or control of the game.
Blizzard disagrees with you:
Cheating:Create, use, offer, promote, advertise, make available and/or distribute the following or assist therein:
bots; i.e. any code and/or software, not expressly authorized by Blizzard, that allows the automated control of a Game, or any other feature of the Platform, e.g. the automated control of a character in a Game;
any code and/or software, not expressly authorized by Blizzard, that can be used in connection with the Platformand/or any component or feature thereof which changes and/or facilitates the gameplay or other functionality;
The key point there is the "Facilitation of gameplay". This is what deck trackers do. The reason they are allowed in Hearthstone is because Blizzard caveated this contractual [point with the ability to approve or not approve them (based on their preference)
On pen and paper as automation: Same statement.
Blizzard disagrees with you. See above.
On carbon copy netdecks as automation/bots: Um....what.
If you don't understand, I can explain it to you again.
On "who cares about your experience in casual?" Blizzard does. I'm a player, and my experience matters. I'm not THE ONLY player who's experience matters, but I am part of the playerbase.
Your experience does not however outweigh anyone else's. For example, if there are people who enjoy playing against bots for the free wins and easy gameplay, you have literally no right to complain about that. For that reason, your experience in casual means nothing compared to the experience of the playerbase as a whole. Why do you think Blizzard don't just nerf cards because one person rights a 2 page rant about it?
On "winning games" as the reason people play casual: that is simply untrue. Exhibit A - me. I play casual to play greedy homebrew decks.
I've never said "Winning Games" was "the reason people play casual". I'd never be naive enough to make such an unverifiable statement as that. That's the sort of thing you do.
edit: I'd like to make one last statement which I 100% stand behind - Arguing that bots aren't as big of a problem as we think IS arguing in favor of bots. You are either in support of the TOS and are against bots....or you are against the TOS and in support of bots. There is no middleground.
"Only fools, fascists and zealots think in terms of black and white". Which are you?
Obviously you can be against bots and still believe that they are not the armageddon-inducing end-of-the-game-world nightmare that some people would have you believe. That's called "common sense". Surely you can't be that intellectually stinted not to realise this?
As you wish. I have no desire to keep you here. Besides, I never once attacked your character. (Nice excuse) I questioned your intellectual ability based on the nature of your statement that you "100% stand by". There's a big difference. I also generously provided scope for you to answer the question and provide evidence to the contrary. Your reply implies that this is something you were unable to do.
As you wish. I have no desire to keep you here. Besides, I never once attacked your character. (Nice excuse) I questioned your intellectual ability based on the nature of your statement that you "100% stand by". There's a big difference. I also generously provided scope for you to answer the question and provide evidence to the contrary. Your reply implies that this is something you were unable to do.
So I guess that's the end of the conversation.
Are you arguing that a deck tracker is the same as bots and therefore should be illegal ? I didn't bother reading your entire post but it sure seemed like it.
Also, are you implying that bots are okay in a game like HS ? If so, everyone should be botting. 99% of the population would be mindless bots grinding 100+ wins a day.
I imagine Blizzard employs a bunch of them in different ecosystem's with differing vectors.
And actually bots learning from human players is for now the best way to train an AI. So I find nothing wrong with it, eventually we are going to lose against "bots"" written by us, why not try to speed up the process?
As you wish. I have no desire to keep you here. Besides, I never once attacked your character. (Nice excuse) I questioned your intellectual ability based on the nature of your statement that you "100% stand by". There's a big difference. I also generously provided scope for you to answer the question and provide evidence to the contrary. Your reply implies that this is something you were unable to do.
So I guess that's the end of the conversation.
I didn't bother reading your entire post but it sure seemed like it.
You admit to not reading the whole post and then expect to have an informed opinion on what I wrote? Sigh...
Are you arguing that a deck tracker is the same as bots and therefore should be illegal ?
No. Not in the slightest. in fact I've made it abundantly clear elsewhere that this is the case. This is the problem when you don't read a person's post and then try and argue about it. You get misinformed.
Also, are you implying that bots are okay in a game like HS ? If so, everyone should be botting. 99% of the population would be mindless bots grinding 100+ wins a day.
Again, no. Not in the slightest. My argument is that bots in Hearthstone do not have the same detrimental effect on other players' games as they do in games where bots directly impinge on a player's progress such as WoW or Runescape, etc. They are still a "bad thing" and shouldnt be in the game. But people who wail about how they are "ruining" Hearthstone... somehow... by letting people get easy wins... because #logic... those people are being completely disingenuous, trying to make it sound as though theyh are bastions of Hearthstone or something when in fact, they are completely aware that bots have done nothing worse than let them win an easy match. Complaining about Bots in Hearthstone is basically like complaining about a player not being good enough in the game to present them enough of a challenge to fuel their over-inflated ego. If you actually feel the need to complain about a Hearthstone bot (regardless of whether they are allowed in the game or not), you've got serious issues.
Finally - you seem to be under the illusion that bots in Hearthstone win enough games to make 100+ wins in a day. I'm not sure you've ever seen one in action otherwise you would realise how comical this notion is.
100+ wins for bots is not necessary since 30 wins hits the gold farming cap. And 30 wins is easily achievable by even the most rudimentary of bots.
It’s not too far-fetched to assume some bots could grind 100 wins a day, especially in casual since there’s so much bots they’ll constantly play against eachothers. Which means they win a lot more than peop’e think. @scorpyon sorry I am on mobile rn and can’t reply to your post
100+ wins for bots is not necessary since 30 wins hits the gold farming cap. And 30 wins is easily achievable by even the most rudimentary of bots.
It’s not too far-fetched to assume some bots could grind 100 wins a day, especially in casual since there’s so much bots they’ll constantly play against eachothers. Which means they win a lot more than peop’e think. @scorpyon sorry I am on mobile rn and can’t reply to your post
No problem. Let me just say that the number of wins isn't really a big point in the scheme of things. (Hence why it was merely an after thought in my post). I don't think it makes much difference personally.
100+ wins for bots is not necessary since 30 wins hits the gold farming cap. And 30 wins is easily achievable by even the most rudimentary of bots.
It’s not too far-fetched to assume some bots could grind 100 wins a day, especially in casual since there’s so much bots they’ll constantly play against eachothers. Which means they win a lot more than peop’e think. @scorpyon sorry I am on mobile rn and can’t reply to your post
No problem. Let me just say that the number of wins isn't really a big point in the scheme of things. (Hence why it was merely an after thought in my post). I don't think it makes much difference personally.
Bots used to be a problem a few years ago because they were massively used, even in ranked mode. Then they kinda disappeared from constructed for a while and were really only seen in casual at very low MMR. However it seems like they started invading ranked mode, once again. It looks like there are thousands of bots grinning and what’s funny about it is that they aren’t even trying to hide the fact that they’re bots with those weird usernames and basic cards. That is a real problem. Surprisingly, some of these bots play rather well, much better than the Innkeeper AI
100+ wins for bots is not necessary since 30 wins hits the gold farming cap. And 30 wins is easily achievable by even the most rudimentary of bots.
It’s not too far-fetched to assume some bots could grind 100 wins a day, especially in casual since there’s so much bots they’ll constantly play against eachothers. Which means they win a lot more than peop’e think. @scorpyon sorry I am on mobile rn and can’t reply to your post
No problem. Let me just say that the number of wins isn't really a big point in the scheme of things. (Hence why it was merely an after thought in my post). I don't think it makes much difference personally.
Bots used to be a problem a few years ago because they were massively used, even in ranked mode. Then they kinda disappeared from constructed for a while and were really only seen in casual at very low MMR. However it seems like they started invading ranked mode, once again. It looks like there are thousands of bots grinning and what’s funny about it is that they aren’t even trying to hide the fact that they’re bots with those weird usernames and basic cards. That is a real problem. Surprisingly, some of these bots play rather well, much better than the Innkeeper AI
Are there listed numbers on the amount of bots anywhere? Not saying you're wrong or that I disbelieve you - just curious, as (with everything revolving around Hearthstone) sometimes things can seem one way without it being a confirmed reality. (Such as when it feels like the last 20 games were against X class / deck, etc)
Are you saying that the bots are better than players, though? That seems key. (The innkeeper isn't exactly a Chess Grandmaster! :-P ) If they are consistently beating real players (such as was very briefly the case when Pirate Warrior was around and bots could fairly easily autopilot it), then that would be something worth being concerned about.
The Basic Bots usually beat my greedy homebrew deck in casual because they are budget aggro decks, built in a way as to nearly always guarantee an on curve and aggressive play. The decks that beat them easily are pure control or decks that have decent healing. I don't enjoy playing against bots, and bots are against the TOS.
The argument for or against bots starts and ends with "they are against the TOS."
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If only it did, but alas, some people will defend them with completely bizarre arguments and foolish comparisons. My guess is that this silliness will continue because, guess what, people are using them and don't want to feel bad about it.
The Basic Bots usually beat my greedy homebrew deck in casual because they are budget aggro decks, built in a way as to nearly always guarantee an on curve and aggressive play. The decks that beat them easily are pure control or decks that have decent healing. I don't enjoy playing against bots, and bots are against the TOS.
The argument for or against bots starts and ends with "they are against the TOS."
And again. That's not an argument. That's just an attempt to selfishly and arrogantly shut down conversation. If you don't wish to engage in the conversation, then leave. Nobody is forcing you to stay and be a jerk.
It's akin to whiners going "This belongs in the salt thread! Waaah!" whenever someone wants to talk about something that they feel is problematic. It's immature.
The Basic Bots usually beat my greedy homebrew deck in casual because they are budget aggro decks, built in a way as to nearly always guarantee an on curve and aggressive play. The decks that beat them easily are pure control or decks that have decent healing. I don't enjoy playing against bots, and bots are against the TOS.
The argument for or against bots starts and ends with "they are against the TOS."
And again. That's not an argument. That's just an attempt to selfishly and arrogantly shut down conversation. If you don't wish to engage in the conversation, then leave. Nobody is forcing you to stay and be a jerk.
It's akin to whiners going "This belongs in the salt thread! Waaah!" whenever someone wants to talk about something that they feel is problematic. It's immature.
You are arguing in favor of something that is against the TOS. There really isn't much discussion to be had on the topic of "are bots a problem?"
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"funny" addition: they don't change up their decklist or update their bot right after a patch. Best example: the Pirate warrior bots ALWAYS tried to drag Patches to your face because it thought he still had charge so they freeze in that action and don't do anything else until the turn ends or the Even Shaman Bots didn't get their 1 mana Hero power because they still played Flametongue Totem about 1 week after the nerfs.
You've told people to go to the salt thread yourself and told them to stop whining, need I remind you ;-)
Not when it is a legitimate conversation topic. I have never directed someone to the salt thread as a means of shutting down the conversation purely because I didn't like what was being said. Pretty big difference. And on the extremely rare occasion I have ever directed someone there, it has been because the poster has already stated they are salty.
You are arguing in favor of something that is against the TOS. There really isn't much discussion to be had on the topic of "are bots a problem?"
If there "isn't much of a discussion", then why are you still here arguing about it. Convince yourself you're right in your head and move on... otherwise you're just wasting everyone's time here...
Against the TOS yes, but with the very few people playing Wild the bots add lots of opponents so I am going to assume that Blizzard allows them to stay to keep Wild viable. Without the bots and how many bots you see in Wild there would be long wait times to find an actual human opponent. I never see them in standard. In wild they are in ladder and in casual and often in both... well in ladder till you hit 15 you don't really see them again. Blame Blizzard for leaving them in and for the health of the game as bad as it actually is for the game. No one wants to play against bots. I would even say that the bots are the creation of Blizzard but the AI isn't good enough for it to be a Blizzard as they make some terrible choices like equipping a weapon then hitting hero power for the dagger.
Which are you? Obviously you can be against bots and still believe that they are not the armageddon-inducing end-of-the-game-world nightmare that some people would have you believe. That's called "common sense".
Surely you can't be that intellectually stinted not to realise this?
It does you no good in trying to support your argument by attacking my character. I refuse to reply until you retract your accusations.
This discussion cannot really progress with you calling me a fascist, a zealot, naive, lacking common sense, or intellectually stinted.
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As you wish. I have no desire to keep you here.
Besides, I never once attacked your character. (Nice excuse)
I questioned your intellectual ability based on the nature of your statement that you "100% stand by". There's a big difference.
I also generously provided scope for you to answer the question and provide evidence to the contrary.
Your reply implies that this is something you were unable to do.
So I guess that's the end of the conversation.
Are you arguing that a deck tracker is the same as bots and therefore should be illegal ? I didn't bother reading your entire post but it sure seemed like it.
Also, are you implying that bots are okay in a game like HS ? If so, everyone should be botting. 99% of the population would be mindless bots grinding 100+ wins a day.
Whats wrong with bots?
I imagine Blizzard employs a bunch of them in different ecosystem's with differing vectors.
And actually bots learning from human players is for now the best way to train an AI. So I find nothing wrong with it, eventually we are going to lose against "bots"" written by us, why not try to speed up the process?
You admit to not reading the whole post and then expect to have an informed opinion on what I wrote?
Sigh...
No. Not in the slightest. in fact I've made it abundantly clear elsewhere that this is the case.
This is the problem when you don't read a person's post and then try and argue about it. You get misinformed.
Again, no. Not in the slightest.
My argument is that bots in Hearthstone do not have the same detrimental effect on other players' games as they do in games where bots directly impinge on a player's progress such as WoW or Runescape, etc.
They are still a "bad thing" and shouldnt be in the game. But people who wail about how they are "ruining" Hearthstone... somehow... by letting people get easy wins... because #logic... those people are being completely disingenuous, trying to make it sound as though theyh are bastions of Hearthstone or something when in fact, they are completely aware that bots have done nothing worse than let them win an easy match. Complaining about Bots in Hearthstone is basically like complaining about a player not being good enough in the game to present them enough of a challenge to fuel their over-inflated ego.
If you actually feel the need to complain about a Hearthstone bot (regardless of whether they are allowed in the game or not), you've got serious issues.
Finally - you seem to be under the illusion that bots in Hearthstone win enough games to make 100+ wins in a day. I'm not sure you've ever seen one in action otherwise you would realise how comical this notion is.
100+ wins for bots is not necessary since 30 wins hits the gold farming cap. And 30 wins is easily achievable by even the most rudimentary of bots.
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It’s not too far-fetched to assume some bots could grind 100 wins a day, especially in casual since there’s so much bots they’ll constantly play against eachothers. Which means they win a lot more than peop’e think. @scorpyon sorry I am on mobile rn and can’t reply to your post
No problem.
Let me just say that the number of wins isn't really a big point in the scheme of things. (Hence why it was merely an after thought in my post).
I don't think it makes much difference personally.
Bots used to be a problem a few years ago because they were massively used, even in ranked mode. Then they kinda disappeared from constructed for a while and were really only seen in casual at very low MMR. However it seems like they started invading ranked mode, once again. It looks like there are thousands of bots grinning and what’s funny about it is that they aren’t even trying to hide the fact that they’re bots with those weird usernames and basic cards. That is a real problem. Surprisingly, some of these bots play rather well, much better than the Innkeeper AI
Are there listed numbers on the amount of bots anywhere?
Not saying you're wrong or that I disbelieve you - just curious, as (with everything revolving around Hearthstone) sometimes things can seem one way without it being a confirmed reality.
(Such as when it feels like the last 20 games were against X class / deck, etc)
Are you saying that the bots are better than players, though? That seems key. (The innkeeper isn't exactly a Chess Grandmaster! :-P )
If they are consistently beating real players (such as was very briefly the case when Pirate Warrior was around and bots could fairly easily autopilot it), then that would be something worth being concerned about.
The Basic Bots usually beat my greedy homebrew deck in casual because they are budget aggro decks, built in a way as to nearly always guarantee an on curve and aggressive play. The decks that beat them easily are pure control or decks that have decent healing. I don't enjoy playing against bots, and bots are against the TOS.
The argument for or against bots starts and ends with "they are against the TOS."
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If only it did, but alas, some people will defend them with completely bizarre arguments and foolish comparisons. My guess is that this silliness will continue because, guess what, people are using them and don't want to feel bad about it.
Diablo + Dungeon Master = Dungeons of Castle Madness
And again. That's not an argument. That's just an attempt to selfishly and arrogantly shut down conversation. If you don't wish to engage in the conversation, then leave.
Nobody is forcing you to stay and be a jerk.
It's akin to whiners going "This belongs in the salt thread! Waaah!" whenever someone wants to talk about something that they feel is problematic. It's immature.
You've told people to go to the salt thread yourself and told them to stop whining, need I remind you ;-)
Diablo + Dungeon Master = Dungeons of Castle Madness
You are arguing in favor of something that is against the TOS. There really isn't much discussion to be had on the topic of "are bots a problem?"
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"funny" addition: they don't change up their decklist or update their bot right after a patch. Best example: the Pirate warrior bots ALWAYS tried to drag Patches to your face because it thought he still had charge so they freeze in that action and don't do anything else until the turn ends or the Even Shaman Bots didn't get their 1 mana Hero power because they still played Flametongue Totem about 1 week after the nerfs.
Not when it is a legitimate conversation topic. I have never directed someone to the salt thread as a means of shutting down the conversation purely because I didn't like what was being said.
Pretty big difference. And on the extremely rare occasion I have ever directed someone there, it has been because the poster has already stated they are salty.
If there "isn't much of a discussion", then why are you still here arguing about it. Convince yourself you're right in your head and move on... otherwise you're just wasting everyone's time here...
Against the TOS yes, but with the very few people playing Wild the bots add lots of opponents so I am going to assume that Blizzard allows them to stay to keep Wild viable. Without the bots and how many bots you see in Wild there would be long wait times to find an actual human opponent. I never see them in standard. In wild they are in ladder and in casual and often in both... well in ladder till you hit 15 you don't really see them again.
Blame Blizzard for leaving them in and for the health of the game as bad as it actually is for the game. No one wants to play against bots. I would even say that the bots are the creation of Blizzard but the AI isn't good enough for it to be a Blizzard as they make some terrible choices like equipping a weapon then hitting hero power for the dagger.
makes it impossible to try out decks in wild casual free wins tho