Was talking with few RL friends and we discussed the state of HS, what we think, love, hate about it. Most of us feel kinda irritated by "shove new arch types" on us expansions, or just adding some gimmicks that either just take card space or someone finds a broken way to use it (wont name decks, cause you'll see later in the wall of text) and or makes old decks useless in context "we want more new decks, out with the old". Well, we love some "old" stuff, something that attached us to a specific class we adore.
Discussion led to "new" ideas, more accurately, how to implement some MTG/other TCG interactions to keep the game fast yet to still have the feel that both players have a say on the board state. Then we made a summery of things we have. (charge, rush, taunt, discover, echo, draw a card, draw a specific card, battle cry, deathrattle, adapt, divine shield, freeze.....and so on) ^We actually managed to name all effects in existence atm xD
When we actually named all of them, we noticed, well damn there is allot actually that HS has to offer. But why the do we feel somethings are broken when there are so many things that can be used, and something feel like they should be awesome but again are not.
I would love to hear ideas to from player point of view, what do you think Team 5/HS can do to further improve this game.
This were some our thoughts/conclusions (cut short cause I am definitely not gonna write an 50 page essay. PLS ADD/COMMENT
1.Stats - effect dis-balance I personally, more than others, feel like that effects (cards) need to be looked at the following way. -when is it dropped? -what effects it has -possible states on the board -board state after it
Spells (aoe clears) need to be rigged in the same way by the ^. Removal needs to be more or less standardized, is it a single card, combination of cards and ect. I feel that specially at this point HS is in a bad shape, needs to get looked at and brain stormed. (and yes I am a mage/control player and this point dissed me off more than the rest)
2.Curve impact (follow up on point 1) This time, mutual feeling is that the later the card is dropped (aka more manna it cost) the card should have some sort of immediate impact or high possibility of it. Example was Emeriss in Hunter class. (non of us are Hunter fans just fiy) It's a 10 cost minion, that in all respect does something awesome, but it's effect can be used next turn only. Till then it's nothing, further more in a class with no card draw nor the tools for late game style (atm non valid might I add). So idea is great, a dragon buffing your hand, but why not make it less stat's with lets say rush/charge and turn it in to a possible finisher? Or give it a taunt....w/e. The logic is, it's a 10 cost card that you can not cheat out before it, it should by all given rights have more significance.
You all can name cards with much less manna cost that are more threatening then the named card.
Basically following that logic, as cost goes down (rarity also included in the equation, specially legendary cards) the effect needs to be more balanced.
Wont go further cause just on this point I could spend all day, but think you can get my drift.
3.Non existence of graveyard / banish effect Huge fan of resurrection mechanics, hate when there is no way to counter it. Team 5, just make a legendary that banishes all minions/spells played till that moment. Hadronox Druid seems fun, but cancer to play against later in the game since he can actually pull out much quicker then trun 9. Make big Priest viable, make it so it can cheat and resurrect some scary stuff, but gives us tools against it also.
4.Non existing tinkering with opponents hand Dirty Rat was awesome and it needs it's replacement, be it with "Turn a minion in your opponents had in to X/X" or anything down those lines.
5.Classic/Basic set problem Simply put, they need to revamp it, add/remove cards from it so it's more new player friendly. Atm have people quitting for other TCG's cause HS dos not give them enough tools to match make and have fun. Aka missing win conditions that can work almost always.
6.Reviving mechanics Gonna keep it short, will let you guys discuss. -ways to attack a minion even if there is a taunt in the way -ways to go face with extra dmg like something Explosive Runes with spells and minions -hand buffing -deck buffing (our thoughts were why buff the whole deck, when you can have cards that buff 2-3 top minions) -swipe effects (attacking adjacent minions) -on X amount HP effects this one has so many options, yet I am aware of 2 cards in the current meta -cards that get boosted with higher manna, something like echo tries to do, add more value later -cards that you spend extra manna for extra effect to activate
There were lost more stuff said, but can remember them all nor do I have the will to write any further.
Again I am really interested in your thoughts where HS can go. And yes I am aware of all the peeps who make costume cards here, costume XPAC's, but the point here is just the general direction of the game.
The big thing that should be simple is to adjust card power at the beginning of each season. The most played cards lose a stat and the least played cards gain a stat. It would help to keep things fresh and it seems they just ignore the whole advantage of the game being digital.
Secondly the whole mana system is way to simple and RNG with all the effects they put on cards. Playing cards and effects of the cards going off should be have two different counters. Like rage for warriors and so on to play cards which would work like the current mana system and then actually use mana crystals for the effects of cards. They would just gain one crystal each turn instead of resetting and gaining one or something like that. So you can play cards without the effect triggering and actually have to manage your mana. It would add skill to a game that has become nothing but curve and RNG now.
That's how I would fix this game because right now it's broken but people here don't want to listen to the game mechanic problems of hearthstone it seems. Also the current mechanics severely limit future card design which is another problem.
The best way for blizzard to improve the game would be to add more build around cards and more win conditions, so that more viable archetypes spring up.
But the easiest change that would be a HUGE benefit to the game would be to make Explosive Sheep a classic card.
Explosive sheep is a classic card, it's called abomination
I understand that you are not being entirely serious, but there is a fundamental difference between those two cards.
Explosive Sheep is a card that is fundamentally good for the game. Even if it isn't a great card, it lets classes that normally don't have AOE have some. Its like Voodoo Doll. It isn't a good card, but it is good for the game because it lets all classes have some form of removal, and it sees some play in classes that can synergize with it.
I think that you raise some valuable points and I'm glad that you are actively debating the state of Hearthstone and comparing it to other CCG's.
Here are my two cents:
I think that banish/remove from graveyard effects are needed in HS, but that would mean increasing the overall card power for classes with access to revive effects (Priest, Druid) because banishing stuff can bring down the power level of revive cards in general.
One thing people tend to forget, is that game developers do not only think about the effect of newly printed cards on the present state of the game but also about the long-term effect, since the developers usually design the cards several months prior to releasing (right now Team 5 could be brainstorming the cards for the expansion to be released in December 2018 or even April 2019) and they tend to release cards that are somewhat irrelevant for the present meta but become staples in future metas (after future releases). An example I can quote is Prince Taldaram, which was considered a trash card until KaC arrived with Cubelock, where it remained a staple card (even today it still is).
I think that there is a lack of specific interaction of each class to its own deck. I like playing Shadowverse because there are unique ways for each class to interact with its deck: be it the number of cards remaining, the number of cards played, the remaining health, etc. Sometimes I feel that HS has a less specificity when it comes to classes.
Yeah I get your point, and agree that adding banish would need to be followed up with actually buffing resurrect effects. For your second point, that's why we complained that many cards have potential but for some reason are not use, dont really wanna see cards "shine" in totally oppressive decks.
Loved Shadowverse, but started to play it when overaggressive meta was in play thnx to that one expansion, so moved to TESL. It also lets you get "bound" to specific class and it's game style, which I agree totally lacks in HS
The big thing that should be simple is to adjust card power at the beginning of each season. The most played cards lose a stat and the least played cards gain a stat. It would help to keep things fresh and it seems they just ignore the whole advantage of the game being digital.
Secondly the whole mana system is way to simple and RNG with all the effects they put on cards. Playing cards and effects of the cards going off should be have two different counters. Like rage for warriors and so on to play cards which would work like the current mana system and then actually use mana crystals for the effects of cards. They would just gain one crystal each turn instead of resetting and gaining one or something like that. So you can play cards without the effect triggering and actually have to manage your mana. It would add skill to a game that has become nothing but curve and RNG now.
That's how I would fix this game because right now it's broken but people here don't want to listen to the game mechanic problems of hearthstone it seems. Also the current mechanics severely limit future card design which is another problem.
For the Emeriss example you have to keep in mind, the next expansion is already finished and cards that don’t see any play now might be meta when the next expansion comes.
A good example is Leeching potion. When leeching potion was released it was a completely dead card. Then Kingsbane came with the next expansion and leeching potion became Auto include in the kingsbane archetype.
Although I do not dislike that direction they took, but betting that a card will get to see play cause one card down the line may exist is not my cup of tea. Same as lets say Pyros, when will this card or the whole element pack see love? Last 3 months before new rotation?
Just cause of that I am incline to believe that some or most interaction were not even aimed at, and they overlooked it while the community used them to build good decks.
The best way for blizzard to improve the game would be to add more build around cards and more win conditions, so that more viable archetypes spring up.
But the easiest change that would be a HUGE benefit to the game would be to make Explosive Sheep a classic card.
Reason why we want HS to look up trough the pool of things it has and revamp it is to get this.
You have to look at Hearthstone and other card games and compare the differences. Games that have the attacker choose how they trade minions favors a certain style of gameplay and 'curvestone'. Games like Magic the Gathering have the defender choose how minions are traded, or at all.
That right there is a HUGE difference in how cards are designed and how a simple 2 mana 2/3 in MTG is less threatening than a 2 mana 2/3 in Hearthstone. Another difference is that MTG requires you to have an attack step in which you must declare all your potential attackers at once. In Hearthstone, it's 1 minion at a time. One of the last 3 main differences is the mana system in both games. You need land to play cards in MTG and in Hearthstone, all you need is time.
A haste creature in MTG is not as powerful as it is in Hearthstone (Charge instead), because the defender gets to choose how to defend or trade minions. Charge as we know in Hearthstone is still an issue today and still an unbalanced ability. Take Leeroy for example, in Hearthstone, that 6 damage goes to face without much issue. In MTG, Leeroy generates 2 minions for your opponent, which gets to block Leeroy and trade for free. Leeroy would actually be a terrible card in MTG, but in Hearthstone is in almost every aggro deck right now.
Once you see these differences, then you can better assess and propose changes to mechanisms and cards in the game. And I am not saying that you don't know these things, as you might. But I think it was worth describing in detail, some of the differences and why cards appear more or less powerful in different games.
One last difference, which actually does matter too, is that minions fully heal from damage at the end of every turn. So if you only managed to damage a 8/8 taunt with 7 points of damage in MTG, you basically wasted your time and resources. In Hearthstone, you at least can make those sacrifices, knowing that the damage persists over turns.
The biggest changes I would like to see in Hearthstone, is more interaction between players when its not their turn. In MTG thats deciding blockers and playing 'instant' spells. In Hearthstone, its Taunt and Secrets.
I think you could implement some sort of interaction when its not your turn, and you could play test it at first with minions or a few spells to see how it works.
For example, this is a card I just came up with to allow some interaction when its not your turn in Hearthstone.
Cost 3 mana spell (Priest) - Target minion gains 'cannot attack if damaged'. Draw a card. At the start of your opponents turn, if this is in your hand, you may play it before your opponent plays any cards. REACTION (new keyword)
So this would act like a discover card when your opponents turn starts. Would you like to cast this spell? Yes or no? Your opponent knows you have some sort of 'Reaction' spell and gives them information. That player's turn timer does not count down for the duration of this spell interaction. Your turn timer though is very limited if you do decide to play the spell or not.
Can this be accomplished in Hearthstone? I think so, even if not easily. You could cheese this effect out though and call it a Secret with the same text. But can you really give all classes secrets? It wouldnt feel thematic or right.
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Hey folks,
Was talking with few RL friends and we discussed the state of HS, what we think, love, hate about it.
Most of us feel kinda irritated by "shove new arch types" on us expansions, or just adding some gimmicks that either
just take card space or someone finds a broken way to use it (wont name decks, cause you'll see later in the wall of text) and or makes
old decks useless in context "we want more new decks, out with the old".
Well, we love some "old" stuff, something that attached us to a specific class we adore.
Discussion led to "new" ideas, more accurately, how to implement some MTG/other TCG interactions to keep the game fast yet to still have the feel that both players
have a say on the board state.
Then we made a summery of things we have.
(charge, rush, taunt, discover, echo, draw a card, draw a specific card, battle cry, deathrattle, adapt, divine shield, freeze.....and so on)
^We actually managed to name all effects in existence atm xD
When we actually named all of them, we noticed, well damn there is allot actually that HS has to offer.
But why the do we feel somethings are broken when there are so many things that can be used, and something feel like they should be awesome but again are not.
I would love to hear ideas to from player point of view, what do you think Team 5/HS can do to further improve this game.
This were some our thoughts/conclusions (cut short cause I am definitely not gonna write an 50 page essay.
PLS ADD/COMMENT
1.Stats - effect dis-balance
I personally, more than others, feel like that effects (cards) need to be looked at the following way.
-when is it dropped?
-what effects it has
-possible states on the board
-board state after it
Spells (aoe clears) need to be rigged in the same way by the ^.
Removal needs to be more or less standardized, is it a single card, combination of cards and ect.
I feel that specially at this point HS is in a bad shape, needs to get looked at and brain stormed.
(and yes I am a mage/control player and this point dissed me off more than the rest)
2.Curve impact (follow up on point 1)
This time, mutual feeling is that the later the card is dropped (aka more manna it cost) the card should have some sort of
immediate impact or high possibility of it.
Example was Emeriss in Hunter class. (non of us are Hunter fans just fiy)
It's a 10 cost minion, that in all respect does something awesome, but it's effect can be used next turn only.
Till then it's nothing, further more in a class with no card draw nor the tools for late game style (atm non valid might I add).
So idea is great, a dragon buffing your hand, but why not make it less stat's with lets say rush/charge and turn it in to a possible finisher?
Or give it a taunt....w/e.
The logic is, it's a 10 cost card that you can not cheat out before it, it should by all given rights have more significance.
You all can name cards with much less manna cost that are more threatening then the named card.
Basically following that logic, as cost goes down (rarity also included in the equation, specially legendary cards) the effect needs to be more balanced.
Wont go further cause just on this point I could spend all day, but think you can get my drift.
3.Non existence of graveyard / banish effect
Huge fan of resurrection mechanics, hate when there is no way to counter it.
Team 5, just make a legendary that banishes all minions/spells played till that moment.
Hadronox Druid seems fun, but cancer to play against later in the game since he can actually pull out much quicker then trun 9.
Make big Priest viable, make it so it can cheat and resurrect some scary stuff, but gives us tools against it also.
4.Non existing tinkering with opponents hand
Dirty Rat was awesome and it needs it's replacement, be it with "Turn a minion in your opponents had in to X/X" or anything down those lines.
5.Classic/Basic set problem
Simply put, they need to revamp it, add/remove cards from it so it's more new player friendly.
Atm have people quitting for other TCG's cause HS dos not give them enough tools to match make and have fun.
Aka missing win conditions that can work almost always.
6.Reviving mechanics
Gonna keep it short, will let you guys discuss.
-ways to attack a minion even if there is a taunt in the way
-ways to go face with extra dmg like something Explosive Runes with spells and minions
-hand buffing
-deck buffing (our thoughts were why buff the whole deck, when you can have cards that buff 2-3 top minions)
-swipe effects (attacking adjacent minions)
-on X amount HP effects this one has so many options, yet I am aware of 2 cards in the current meta
-cards that get boosted with higher manna, something like echo tries to do, add more value later
-cards that you spend extra manna for extra effect to activate
There were lost more stuff said, but can remember them all nor do I have the will to write any further.
Again I am really interested in your thoughts where HS can go.
And yes I am aware of all the peeps who make costume cards here, costume XPAC's, but the point here
is just the general direction of the game.
The big thing that should be simple is to adjust card power at the beginning of each season. The most played cards lose a stat and the least played cards gain a stat. It would help to keep things fresh and it seems they just ignore the whole advantage of the game being digital.
Secondly the whole mana system is way to simple and RNG with all the effects they put on cards. Playing cards and effects of the cards going off should be have two different counters. Like rage for warriors and so on to play cards which would work like the current mana system and then actually use mana crystals for the effects of cards. They would just gain one crystal each turn instead of resetting and gaining one or something like that. So you can play cards without the effect triggering and actually have to manage your mana. It would add skill to a game that has become nothing but curve and RNG now.
That's how I would fix this game because right now it's broken but people here don't want to listen to the game mechanic problems of hearthstone it seems. Also the current mechanics severely limit future card design which is another problem.
The best way for blizzard to improve the game would be to add more build around cards and more win conditions, so that more viable archetypes spring up.
But the easiest change that would be a HUGE benefit to the game would be to make Explosive Sheep a classic card.
Explosive sheep is a classic card, it's called abomination
I think that you raise some valuable points and I'm glad that you are actively debating the state of Hearthstone and comparing it to other CCG's.
Here are my two cents:
Kthxbye
Nice
Yeah I get your point, and agree that adding banish would need to be followed up with actually buffing resurrect effects.
For your second point, that's why we complained that many cards have potential but for some reason are not use, dont really wanna see cards "shine" in totally oppressive decks.
Loved Shadowverse, but started to play it when overaggressive meta was in play thnx to that one expansion, so moved to TESL.
It also lets you get "bound" to specific class and it's game style, which I agree totally lacks in HS
Same as lets say Pyros, when will this card or the whole element pack see love?
Last 3 months before new rotation?
You have to look at Hearthstone and other card games and compare the differences. Games that have the attacker choose how they trade minions favors a certain style of gameplay and 'curvestone'. Games like Magic the Gathering have the defender choose how minions are traded, or at all.
That right there is a HUGE difference in how cards are designed and how a simple 2 mana 2/3 in MTG is less threatening than a 2 mana 2/3 in Hearthstone. Another difference is that MTG requires you to have an attack step in which you must declare all your potential attackers at once. In Hearthstone, it's 1 minion at a time. One of the last 3 main differences is the mana system in both games. You need land to play cards in MTG and in Hearthstone, all you need is time.
A haste creature in MTG is not as powerful as it is in Hearthstone (Charge instead), because the defender gets to choose how to defend or trade minions. Charge as we know in Hearthstone is still an issue today and still an unbalanced ability. Take Leeroy for example, in Hearthstone, that 6 damage goes to face without much issue. In MTG, Leeroy generates 2 minions for your opponent, which gets to block Leeroy and trade for free. Leeroy would actually be a terrible card in MTG, but in Hearthstone is in almost every aggro deck right now.
Once you see these differences, then you can better assess and propose changes to mechanisms and cards in the game. And I am not saying that you don't know these things, as you might. But I think it was worth describing in detail, some of the differences and why cards appear more or less powerful in different games.
One last difference, which actually does matter too, is that minions fully heal from damage at the end of every turn. So if you only managed to damage a 8/8 taunt with 7 points of damage in MTG, you basically wasted your time and resources. In Hearthstone, you at least can make those sacrifices, knowing that the damage persists over turns.
The biggest changes I would like to see in Hearthstone, is more interaction between players when its not their turn. In MTG thats deciding blockers and playing 'instant' spells. In Hearthstone, its Taunt and Secrets.
I think you could implement some sort of interaction when its not your turn, and you could play test it at first with minions or a few spells to see how it works.
For example, this is a card I just came up with to allow some interaction when its not your turn in Hearthstone.
Cost 3 mana spell (Priest) - Target minion gains 'cannot attack if damaged'. Draw a card. At the start of your opponents turn, if this is in your hand, you may play it before your opponent plays any cards. REACTION (new keyword)
So this would act like a discover card when your opponents turn starts. Would you like to cast this spell? Yes or no? Your opponent knows you have some sort of 'Reaction' spell and gives them information. That player's turn timer does not count down for the duration of this spell interaction. Your turn timer though is very limited if you do decide to play the spell or not.
Can this be accomplished in Hearthstone? I think so, even if not easily. You could cheese this effect out though and call it a Secret with the same text. But can you really give all classes secrets? It wouldnt feel thematic or right.