Buzzard is definitely a problem because it essentially adds a 2 mana cost to every beast you drop later in that turn that says "Draw a card." This 2 mana cost though is divided amongst every other drop.
Consider the scenario of dropping a Buzzard followed by two webspinners or what have you. Now each Webspinner is effectively a 1/1 with a Deathrattle, like normal, but instead it costs 2 mana and has battlecry: draw a card. Every beast past the second one you drop reads: "0 mana: Battlecry: draw a card." If your opponent has three minions, with Unleash you're paying 1 mana for a 1/1 with a Battlecry: Draw a card and with Charge. HUGE. And that's on top of getting a 2/1 out of this all as well.
What if, for instance, other classes had card draw on this scale? What if Northshire Cleric instead read whenever a character is healed? Priests would be hitting their opponents on Turn 2 for 1 damage, then healing them to draw a card. That would be the same kind of instant, repeatable, low cost card draw that hunters currently have. There's no trade off for hunter card draw using buzzard, essentially Every additional beast dropped to draw a card makes it MORE efficient. In that aspect, Starving Buzzard is the BEST card drawing engine in the game.
Leeroy too is too powerful at 4 mana. What else does 6 damage for 4 mana? Fireball. Does Fireball interact with anything though in the same way? I can't Shadowstep a Fireball. I can't buff and Faceless a fireball. I can't give a Fireball Rockbitter+Windfury.
I would love to see Leeroy actually kept at 4 mana, but have the whelps it summons have Taunt. That would be in the true spirit of the video (and WoW raid) that inspired it.
Buzzard change would make it unplayable and would kill the hunter class. I really don't know what is Blizzard thinking, they have to let the meta adapt to itself, not change it via a brute force measure like this. I want to play the way i want, not the way Blizzard wants me to. Besides, Hunter, even the faceroll version, is not unbeatable. Not by a sight.
I would be terribly disappointed by those nerfs.
heaven forbid if blizzard wanted to balance their game in some way.
At 3/2 for 5 mana, Buzzard would be lacking 5-6 stats or 2-3 mana worth of value. This would suggest that it would need to draw at least 2 cards to justify its cost - the earliest this could be done in one turn (w/o coin) is turn 7 with 2 1-mana beasts. It is unlikely such a high-priority target would last more than one turn, meaning it would be very difficult to play this version of Buzzard to any worthwhile effect until very late in the game. This, in turn, rather defeats the purpose of the mechanic: hunter has a well defined (and quickly exausted) early game, and then a distinct late game with Savannah Highmane, while the mid point is used for desperately needed cards through the infamous UTH/Buzzard combo.
So, this change would be reasonable if the hunter class were not so reliant on a midgame Buzzard combo. If the UTH/Buzzard expense is made prohibitive until late game, it is only reasonable to design Buzzard to draw 1-1.5 cards or else to survive longer. Thus, if 5 mana is still the goal to restrict the combo until late (if at all) Buzzard must be either 2/4 (maybe 1/4) to enhance survival, 3/3 or 4/3 to enhance its own attacking value, or else it must cost less.
TLDR: The buzzard change would actually be reasonable if there wasn't a distinct hunter midgame weakness between early game spiders and other low cost cards, and strong plays like Savannah Highmane late game. If Buzzard is to fill this slot, it must either be expected to live more than one turn (and thus draw at least 2 cards) through low attack but high health, or it must have merit of its own (by dealing significant damage and requiring more significant removal) via mid-high attack and mid-low health. Thus, if Buzzard is to be 5 mana it should be 2/4 or 4/3, otherwise its cost should be 3-4 mana, or else another change to hunter should be made.
Buzzard is definitely a problem because it essentially adds a 2 mana cost to every beast you drop later in that turn that says "Draw a card." This 2 mana cost though is divided amongst every other drop.
Consider the scenario of dropping a Buzzard followed by two webspinners or what have you. Now each Webspinner is effectively a 1/1 with a Deathrattle, like normal, but instead it costs 2 mana and has battlecry: draw a card. Every beast past the second one you drop reads: "0 mana: Battlecry: draw a card." If your opponent has three minions, with Unleash you're paying 1 mana for a 1/1 with a Battlecry: Draw a card and with Charge. HUGE. And that's on top of getting a 2/1 out of this all as well.
What if, for instance, other classes had card draw on this scale? What if Northshire Cleric instead read whenever a character is healed? Priests would be hitting their opponents on Turn 2 for 1 damage, then healing them to draw a card. That would be the same kind of instant, repeatable, low cost card draw that hunters currently have. There's no trade off for hunter card draw using buzzard, essentially Every additional beast dropped to draw a card makes it MORE efficient. In that aspect, Starving Buzzard is the BEST card drawing engine in the game.
It is the best draw engine - when the conditions are met. Buzzard + Unleash is only ok versus two minions, worse versus a single one. Competent players abuse that and instead of keeping minions alive at one health the trade to reduce their board and don't play stuff like totems or other small minions without a necessary purpose. Without being able to get the draws from Unleash a hunter runs out of cards quite fast or is forced into Buzzard into other beasts to draw.
I had that this morning myself: played versus what looked like a control warrior and the first minion he played was a Cruel Taskmaster to kill the Buzzard the turn later. That was on T5 or T6. I had double Unleash, Timber Wolf and Hunters Mark in my hand but there were no minions to benefit from. (I won because Raging Worgen, Inner Rage, Inner Rage, Charge, Senjin were only 20 damage and Kodo, Timber Wolf, Loatheb, Unleash, Unleash, hero power was exact lethal)
Leeroy too is too powerful at 4 mana. What else does 6 damage for 4 mana? Fireball. Does Fireball interact with anything though in the same way? I can't Shadowstep a Fireball. I can't buff and Faceless a fireball. I can't give a Fireball Rockbitter+Windfury.
I would love to see Leeroy actually kept at 4 mana, but have the whelps it summons have Taunt. That would be in the true spirit of the video (and WoW raid) that inspired it.
Yes Leeroy does the same damage as a Fireball when unhindered and can combo into more damage, but that problem lies not with Leeroy itself but the combo. If you nerf Leeroy in that way, that slot will be filled with Arcane Golem for a bit less damage and the same combo potential or you would see Leeroy, Shadowstep, Leeroy, Cold Blood, Cold Blood. Or Blade Flurry to clear Whelps.
I've lost a lot of faith in Blizzard being able to balance cards correctly since they nerfed Tinkmaster Overspark into the dirt, instead of balancing they just seem to hit everything with the nerf bat to the point of unplayability.
I've lost a lot of faith in Blizzard being able to balance cards correctly since they nerfed Tinkmaster Overspark into the dirt, instead of balancing they just seem to hit everything with the nerf bat to the point of unplayability.
Tinkmaster case was not a balance. The card was just "played too much" almost necessary in every deck and then Blizzard decide to change it so people could use different cards. Tink at that point made BGH and TBK pointless for exemple.
thinkmaster is still playable in a control heavy meta and vs a miracle rogue heavy meta. see last season even trump used it in legendary warior even over loatheb
Photoshop troll? I mean even if they were playing around with changes on an internal server I can't imagine the amount of fail required to accidentally push a patch out. Changing cards would require a client side patch, so you can't claim a rogue hot fix. This seems like a ploy to get people fired up and it seems to be working as intended.
Photoshop troll? I mean even if they were playing around with changes on an internal server I can't imagine the amount of fail required to accidentally push a patch out. Changing cards would require a client side patch, so you can't claim a rogue hot fix. This seems like a ploy to get people fired up and it seems to be working as intended.
Nope, seems like some kind of error with server files. It happaned with Sylvannas em Unleash before they got nerfed
Nerf seems likely at this point; anytime stuff like this gets revealed prematurely(Naxx card set leaked, previous Nerfs showing up before intended) it has tended to be true. That forum post being taken down seems strangely familiar to those leaked naxx cards being taken down too....
Anyway Leeroy Nerf seems reasonable, killing most large combos. I would be surprised if they didn't hit savage roar/FON with Nerf bat too as that seems to have been stronger than Leeroy combos as of late. To be clear I am not advocating any of these Nerfs, just commenting on them since they seem likely.
Starving buzzard Nerf looks over the top. (i don't play hunter and don't tend to have a hard time playing around it; although maybe i wont have to build decks to hard counter it anymore) The only reason I can think of for this Nerf is that they are working on the next expansion and realize how limiting SB is to making new playable beast cards. Nerfing SB would radically change their design space since every new card would not have to thought of in terms of how it reacts with a 2 mana SB. Perhaps there is a card that makes all beasts cost 1 less which would completely break current SB. If this is the case though, i would not be surprised to see Gadgetzan Auctioneer Nerfed as well as it is similarly limiting to new spell design, or maybe there will only be new minions in this next expansion.
Photoshop troll? I mean even if they were playing around with changes on an internal server I can't imagine the amount of fail required to accidentally push a patch out. Changing cards would require a client side patch, so you can't claim a rogue hot fix. This seems like a ploy to get people fired up and it seems to be working as intended.
Nope, seems like some kind of error with server files. It happaned with Sylvannas em Unleash before they got nerfed
Yep so it's even more easy to make a troll since you know that can happen. Until official blue post I'm not gonna speculate anymore.
Leeroy itself isn't the problem, but rather than nerfing the shitload of cards that make him a porblem, it's easier to nerf him slightly, making said combos hit later, or making them impossible. Actually a smart move, even tho it obviously hurts the card.
Buzzard will be nerfed. There is no way around it - it just depends how much. 5 Mana for 3/2 might be too much. Just make him 3 or 4 mana at worst. I'd rather see UTH nerfed to "until you have as many minions as your opponent on the board", tho. Buff the mana cost for all I care in that case. The traps are also a problem, but that might be solvable by nerfing Mad Scientist to 3 mana, which in return hurt him in mage and paladin decks. Both problematic traps can be easily balanced by slight nerfs. (Freezing => +1 mana cost or none and Explosive shouldn't hurt the hero). It's either traps or scientist I feel.
This is not balance, this is Blizzard forcing the meta to change, which is completely unnecessary.
IF Hunter is a problem, it is not because of Leeroy or UTH combo, but mainly because of hunter mark and the sinergy of owls and buzzards.
OTK Warrior was balance, Sylvanas from 5 to 6 was balance, Van Cleef unstealthed was balance. This is some random guy whining about a card that works the way it should, like the 8 mana pyroblast was. And when it will be done, there will be some other card that will be "op" according to another group of random guys whining.
This would just seem weird to me. Zoo has been much more consistent on the ladder for a much longer time and it hasn't been touched. The reason zoo hasn't been touched is because I do not feel it is broken either. This to me does seem much more like a glitch mostly due to I really don't feel it addressed the current issues with hunter. Leeroy is slowly starting to be removed from some of the hunter decks (see Savyz) and that change to buzzard would make it unplayable.
This would just seem weird to me. Zoo has been much more consistent on the ladder for a much longer time and it hasn't been touched. The reason zoo hasn't been touched is because I do not feel it is broken either. This to me does seem much more like a glitch mostly due to I really don't feel it addressed the current issues with hunter. Leeroy is slowly starting to be removed from some of the hunter decks (see Savyz) and that change to buzzard would make it unplayable.
It will be interesting to see what happens.
Zoo is just an efficient deck (like Control Warrior) and the only issue with Zoo is that the deck is really cheap (so everybody ends up playing it). The deck does not feel op at all. If every competitive deck was cheap (dust cost wise) the meta would be much more diverse.
This would just seem weird to me. Zoo has been much more consistent on the ladder for a much longer time and it hasn't been touched. The reason zoo hasn't been touched is because I do not feel it is broken either. This to me does seem much more like a glitch mostly due to I really don't feel it addressed the current issues with hunter. Leeroy is slowly starting to be removed from some of the hunter decks (see Savyz) and that change to buzzard would make it unplayable.
It will be interesting to see what happens.
Zoo is just an efficient deck (like Control Warrior) and the only issue with Zoo is that the deck is really cheap (so everybody ends up playing it). The deck does not feel op at all. If every competitive deck was cheap (dust cost wise) the meta would be much more diverse.
I agree with you that it does not feel OP at all. I have the same feelings about hunter (cheap deck to make), so everyone runs it on the ladder, despite a lot of the more expensive control decks countering it.
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Just to add more conspiracy: the bug report is gone. http://www.hearthpwn.com/blue-tracker/topic/9442-starving-buzzard-bug
Buzzard is definitely a problem because it essentially adds a 2 mana cost to every beast you drop later in that turn that says "Draw a card." This 2 mana cost though is divided amongst every other drop.
Consider the scenario of dropping a Buzzard followed by two webspinners or what have you. Now each Webspinner is effectively a 1/1 with a Deathrattle, like normal, but instead it costs 2 mana and has battlecry: draw a card. Every beast past the second one you drop reads: "0 mana: Battlecry: draw a card." If your opponent has three minions, with Unleash you're paying 1 mana for a 1/1 with a Battlecry: Draw a card and with Charge. HUGE. And that's on top of getting a 2/1 out of this all as well.
What if, for instance, other classes had card draw on this scale? What if Northshire Cleric instead read whenever a character is healed? Priests would be hitting their opponents on Turn 2 for 1 damage, then healing them to draw a card. That would be the same kind of instant, repeatable, low cost card draw that hunters currently have. There's no trade off for hunter card draw using buzzard, essentially Every additional beast dropped to draw a card makes it MORE efficient. In that aspect, Starving Buzzard is the BEST card drawing engine in the game.
Leeroy too is too powerful at 4 mana. What else does 6 damage for 4 mana? Fireball. Does Fireball interact with anything though in the same way? I can't Shadowstep a Fireball. I can't buff and Faceless a fireball. I can't give a Fireball Rockbitter+Windfury.
I would love to see Leeroy actually kept at 4 mana, but have the whelps it summons have Taunt. That would be in the true spirit of the video (and WoW raid) that inspired it.
heaven forbid if blizzard wanted to balance their game in some way.
At 3/2 for 5 mana, Buzzard would be lacking 5-6 stats or 2-3 mana worth of value. This would suggest that it would need to draw at least 2 cards to justify its cost - the earliest this could be done in one turn (w/o coin) is turn 7 with 2 1-mana beasts. It is unlikely such a high-priority target would last more than one turn, meaning it would be very difficult to play this version of Buzzard to any worthwhile effect until very late in the game. This, in turn, rather defeats the purpose of the mechanic: hunter has a well defined (and quickly exausted) early game, and then a distinct late game with Savannah Highmane, while the mid point is used for desperately needed cards through the infamous UTH/Buzzard combo.
So, this change would be reasonable if the hunter class were not so reliant on a midgame Buzzard combo. If the UTH/Buzzard expense is made prohibitive until late game, it is only reasonable to design Buzzard to draw 1-1.5 cards or else to survive longer. Thus, if 5 mana is still the goal to restrict the combo until late (if at all) Buzzard must be either 2/4 (maybe 1/4) to enhance survival, 3/3 or 4/3 to enhance its own attacking value, or else it must cost less.
TLDR: The buzzard change would actually be reasonable if there wasn't a distinct hunter midgame weakness between early game spiders and other low cost cards, and strong plays like Savannah Highmane late game. If Buzzard is to fill this slot, it must either be expected to live more than one turn (and thus draw at least 2 cards) through low attack but high health, or it must have merit of its own (by dealing significant damage and requiring more significant removal) via mid-high attack and mid-low health. Thus, if Buzzard is to be 5 mana it should be 2/4 or 4/3, otherwise its cost should be 3-4 mana, or else another change to hunter should be made.
It is the best draw engine - when the conditions are met. Buzzard + Unleash is only ok versus two minions, worse versus a single one. Competent players abuse that and instead of keeping minions alive at one health the trade to reduce their board and don't play stuff like totems or other small minions without a necessary purpose. Without being able to get the draws from Unleash a hunter runs out of cards quite fast or is forced into Buzzard into other beasts to draw.
I had that this morning myself: played versus what looked like a control warrior and the first minion he played was a Cruel Taskmaster to kill the Buzzard the turn later. That was on T5 or T6. I had double Unleash, Timber Wolf and Hunters Mark in my hand but there were no minions to benefit from. (I won because Raging Worgen, Inner Rage, Inner Rage, Charge, Senjin were only 20 damage and Kodo, Timber Wolf, Loatheb, Unleash, Unleash, hero power was exact lethal)
Yes Leeroy does the same damage as a Fireball when unhindered and can combo into more damage, but that problem lies not with Leeroy itself but the combo. If you nerf Leeroy in that way, that slot will be filled with Arcane Golem for a bit less damage and the same combo potential or you would see Leeroy, Shadowstep, Leeroy, Cold Blood, Cold Blood. Or Blade Flurry to clear Whelps.
I've lost a lot of faith in Blizzard being able to balance cards correctly since they nerfed Tinkmaster Overspark into the dirt, instead of balancing they just seem to hit everything with the nerf bat to the point of unplayability.
Tinkmaster case was not a balance. The card was just "played too much" almost necessary in every deck and then Blizzard decide to change it so people could use different cards. Tink at that point made BGH and TBK pointless for exemple.
thinkmaster is still playable in a control heavy meta and vs a miracle rogue heavy meta. see last season even trump used it in legendary warior even over loatheb
Photoshop troll? I mean even if they were playing around with changes on an internal server I can't imagine the amount of fail required to accidentally push a patch out. Changing cards would require a client side patch, so you can't claim a rogue hot fix. This seems like a ploy to get people fired up and it seems to be working as intended.
Nope, seems like some kind of error with server files. It happaned with Sylvannas em Unleash before they got nerfed
This is all because there is a class which is a one trick pony and then Naxx makes that trick too strong.
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
Nerf seems likely at this point; anytime stuff like this gets revealed prematurely(Naxx card set leaked, previous Nerfs showing up before intended) it has tended to be true. That forum post being taken down seems strangely familiar to those leaked naxx cards being taken down too....
Anyway Leeroy Nerf seems reasonable, killing most large combos. I would be surprised if they didn't hit savage roar/FON with Nerf bat too as that seems to have been stronger than Leeroy combos as of late. To be clear I am not advocating any of these Nerfs, just commenting on them since they seem likely.
Starving buzzard Nerf looks over the top. (i don't play hunter and don't tend to have a hard time playing around it; although maybe i wont have to build decks to hard counter it anymore) The only reason I can think of for this Nerf is that they are working on the next expansion and realize how limiting SB is to making new playable beast cards. Nerfing SB would radically change their design space since every new card would not have to thought of in terms of how it reacts with a 2 mana SB. Perhaps there is a card that makes all beasts cost 1 less which would completely break current SB. If this is the case though, i would not be surprised to see Gadgetzan Auctioneer Nerfed as well as it is similarly limiting to new spell design, or maybe there will only be new minions in this next expansion.
nice, im looking forward to 1,6k dust from my leeroy as im not using him in any deck right now anyway.
i guess the leeroy nerf is in line so that handlock doesn't run rampant on the ladder after hunter got deleted.
I don't think this is a troll. Reynad tweeted about this, and he has no reason to ever lie. https://twitter.com/AndreyYanyuk/status/509932374075768832
Leeroy itself isn't the problem, but rather than nerfing the shitload of cards that make him a porblem, it's easier to nerf him slightly, making said combos hit later, or making them impossible. Actually a smart move, even tho it obviously hurts the card.
Buzzard will be nerfed. There is no way around it - it just depends how much. 5 Mana for 3/2 might be too much. Just make him 3 or 4 mana at worst. I'd rather see UTH nerfed to "until you have as many minions as your opponent on the board", tho. Buff the mana cost for all I care in that case. The traps are also a problem, but that might be solvable by nerfing Mad Scientist to 3 mana, which in return hurt him in mage and paladin decks. Both problematic traps can be easily balanced by slight nerfs. (Freezing => +1 mana cost or none and Explosive shouldn't hurt the hero). It's either traps or scientist I feel.
This is not balance, this is Blizzard forcing the meta to change, which is completely unnecessary.
IF Hunter is a problem, it is not because of Leeroy or UTH combo, but mainly because of hunter mark and the sinergy of owls and buzzards.
OTK Warrior was balance, Sylvanas from 5 to 6 was balance, Van Cleef unstealthed was balance. This is some random guy whining about a card that works the way it should, like the 8 mana pyroblast was. And when it will be done, there will be some other card that will be "op" according to another group of random guys whining.
This would just seem weird to me. Zoo has been much more consistent on the ladder for a much longer time and it hasn't been touched. The reason zoo hasn't been touched is because I do not feel it is broken either. This to me does seem much more like a glitch mostly due to I really don't feel it addressed the current issues with hunter. Leeroy is slowly starting to be removed from some of the hunter decks (see Savyz) and that change to buzzard would make it unplayable.
It will be interesting to see what happens.
Zoo is just an efficient deck (like Control Warrior) and the only issue with Zoo is that the deck is really cheap (so everybody ends up playing it). The deck does not feel op at all. If every competitive deck was cheap (dust cost wise) the meta would be much more diverse.
I agree with you that it does not feel OP at all. I have the same feelings about hunter (cheap deck to make), so everyone runs it on the ladder, despite a lot of the more expensive control decks countering it.