I recently introduced Hearthstone to a friend of mine, who, for the most part, has really enjoyed the game. I saw her earlier this week, and asked her if she was still playing. Her response was "yes, but..." and casually mentioned how she was a little turned off by the under representation of female characters in the game. This is something I have noticed as well, and had the idea of sitting down and calculating the percentage of male to female to gender-ambiguous/neutral minions that exist in hearthstone.
As it is, it turns out someone beat me to it. A quick Google search turned up this. I found it in the context of a reddit post (which is now locked, and archived) in which the original poster was criticized rather harshly for voicing their opinions on the matter. (Which, is another matter completely, and I won't get into it.)
I've only really glanced at this spreadsheet, and mostly focused on the totals, so I can't speak for the majority of this data, and I make no claims to it's accuracy, the methodology, or any decision making (ie, the thought process behind assigning each minion a gender) but from what I've seen so far, it appears to be pretty accurate.
I (and the friend whom I mentioned earlier) have our own opinions on why this data is important, and why it matters in the context of Hearthstone specifically, and I feel it's of significant value to discuss. (At least enough so to include it on the Hearthpwn forums, if for no other reason than this being the only Hearthstone related forums I actively post on.)
More than anything, I just wanted to get this information out there to anyone who hasn't already seen it, and (leaving my own personal opinions on the matter out of it) see how people feel about this fairly obvious imbalance.
Something that I have noticed in general, including WoW, is that villains are almost always male. Then, given how Hearthstone is based upon WoW, which has a fair share of villains, the result is not surprising.
Anyways, at least a few of the things listed as males on the list I would reasonably categorize them as non-gendered. A tree, as far as I know plant anatomy, is both male and female.
No point. I'm just curious how people feel about this, and what they have to say.
As stated above, "More than anything, I just wanted to get this information out there to anyone who hasn't already seen it, and (leaving my own personal opinions on the matter out of it) see how people feel about this fairly obvious imbalance. "
The consumer is 99% male most likely so I'd say there is too many females based on population . Also why is there no Asian characters? No black paladins huh? What the fuck why is there no transgender heroes? WHAT THE FUCK NO GAY HEROES?!?!?
I get it, question stuff, but kindly fuck off with these statements and questions.
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"I realized life is this crazy, mystical thing, and sometimes you just go out like a buster."
Anyways, at least a few of the things listed as males on the list I would reasonably categorize them as non-gendered. A tree, as far as I know plant anatomy, is both male and female.
I absolutely agree with you on that point.
For what it's worth: I remember reading somewhere on the reddit thread that originally presented the spreadsheet that, far example, cards like Ancient of War and Ancient of Lore had a visible mustache and exposed chests respectively, and were thus categorized as male. I guess the same could be said for cards like Jeeves which "present" a certain gender, but are realistically non-gendered. This starts moving us into really murky waters, but might be worth considering.
I can see Jeeves being "gendered", but I can't see Dread Infernal being so. Funnily enough, the list doesn't classify Savannah Highmane as male, despite the fact that only male lions have mane.
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People who refuses to play aggro out of principle are even worse than people who play exclusively aggro.
One should seek to become a complete player and play all archetypes, including ones that he despises for whatever irrational reasons.
Honestly this idea is pretty stupid, for various reasons:
1. The game is based off of WoW lore. There is an uneven amount of gender in that game.
2. Some cards you listed as 'MALE' aren't even so. Cult Master is clearly a FEMALE!
3. Some races in WoW lore do not have a female counterpart. (e.g. Imps)
It's not as simple as Oh, there are an even amount of males and females in the real world, so there must be in Hearthstone as well right?
EDIT: Also in the list, living creatures with ambiguous gender are placed under male category.. ok.. (like Treants and Infernals)
1. I absolutely understand that. And I would assume that the creator of this spreadsheet would have similar things to say about WoW, but I'm not here to draw any conclusions, or even offer my own perspective on the matter. I was only putting the information out there, and was hoping to create a dialogue. That's my only agenda.
2. I did not create this spreadsheet, and I said in the original post that "I make no claims to it's accuracy, the methodology, or any decision making." Yes, if you re-gendered some of the discrepancies pointed out above, the percentages certainly change. I acknowledge this spreadsheet was most likely created with some amount of bias.
3. I absolutely agree with you on this, as well as the point with Treants and Infernals. No argument there, even if some of them gender-neutral creatures have been strangely assigned typically gendered features, ie: a mustache.
You raise completely valid points, but I'm not entirely convinced that they're enough to negate the importance of this spreadsheet. I agree that it's certainly not as simple as creating a Hearthstone with gender ratios that mimic the real world. If every game, movie, story, etc. needed to adhere to realistic ratios I'd begin to worry about stifled creativity, formulaic world-building, etc. I also concede that Hearthstone is my first foray into the lore of Warcraft, so I have very little to contribute in the way of context for a lot of these points, however; as someone who cares a great deal about the game of Hearthstone, who plays on very consistent basis, and dedicates a fair amount of cerebral time and energy to theory-craft, game-play, perusing the forums, etc. I'm simply attempting to create a dialogue on an outside issue as it pertains to the game.
It is not my intention to force my perspective on anyone else, and I've actively attempted to approach this thread from as objective of an angle as I can. I appreciate all viewpoints, and that thank you for a thoughtful response. Additionally, I welcome responses like the poster above who asked me to "kindly fuck off." All perspectives are valuable in a discourse like this, and contribute equally, even if only to reveal how uncomfortable with the issue some people are.
I like to believe that blizzard really pays attention to the fact that every 'discipline' has at least one female representative. That is also true for typically male dominated domains like the warrior class (Shieldmaiden). Also there are a lot non-minion cards that feature females (Iceblock,Shadowstep,Blessed Champion).
Also most races are represented in non-stereotypical ways. For example [card]Sunwalker[card] is a female tauren instead of a male human. Of course there are exceptions : There are no male Dryades because they are by definition the daughters of Cenarius.
I think that is okay for the Warcraft lore to have some rolerestrictions on gender. For example there are only female priestesses of elune to my knowledge.
I do think gender representation is a good thing in the sense that fully utilizing both genders effectively doubles and arguably triples the artistic possibilities within a game. That said, I don't find gender representation to affect my enjoyment of a game - unless it is perhaps a grossly derogatory theme in a game. Perhaps this is why I don't understand why anyone would feel strongly about it, let alone notice it in something like Hearthstone.
I can enjoy male/female characters equally, so it's the quality of the character that matters more than anything. I would enjoy hearing why some people would prefer more female characters, less male characters, the general idea of balance, or whatever the case might be.
Its not a big deal at all. The heroes and most cards are restricted to the original lore which does have more males but in no way do women play a small part either. Some of the biggest and most prominent characters are female, Jaina Proudmoore or Sylvanas Windrunner for example. So while there might be an inequality in pure numbers there is absolutely NO inequality in roles. More will be added as the game goes on. For example the most likely candidate for the second priest hero is Tyrande Whisperwind.
Frankly, your friend is being unreasonable or has some other problem with the game besides this. I have never been less interested in a series because the majority of the cast of characters are female. Albeit there are fewer but more and more all the time. Series like Orange is the new black for example has a VAST majority of females to males but that is just how the story is and the there is nothing wrong with that nor will it prevent me from liking the series.
Creators should never have to make equal amounts of female and male character if they don't want to as long as they portray both genders fairly and accurately it doesn't matter what the percentage of one to the other is.
As a final note, I would like to add that the hearthstone staff are the wrong people to complain too even if it were a problem. They have limited control on what characters they can add so you would be better off asking the team responsible for the source material AKA World of warcraft. Again that would be a waste of time since there is no problem but just something I thought I might as well point that out.
Would you damn feminist please stfu? You now want a quota within a videogame? Within Art?
Michelangelo's David needs to have 1 boob and a half a vagina for it to be non-misogynistic. Saving Private Ryan would also be better if half the soldiers in WW2 would be female.
It has gotten so bad now that you cant ever just make a movie, game or book now a days. You always have to cater to the fucking PC police that will shout at you if there is no equal representation within in the characters. Not only men-women but also race based. Harry Potter is racist because there are no blacks in it... In fucking England!
Noticed how there are barely any Black cards in HS either? Yo, damn Niggas at Blizzard are all racist!
A non equal representation is NOT sexist/racist, no matter how much feminist claim it is. Nor is it a problem. If white people make stories about white people and black people about blacks then that is the norm and not racist. Tall guys seldomly write books about midgets.
Quotas in media are fucking bullshit. Quotas in the real world are also bullshit. For one feminists only want quotas in high paying jobs. I have not one demand a quota of 50% garbage collectors. Or assembly line workers. Or butchers. On the other hand a quota is the DEFINITION of sexism/racism. If you give someone work not based on his qualification but simply because she is a women or black then you are literally reducing a person down to her race and gender.
I asked for no quota, called for no change, have not referred to this as a problem, and have never stated my opinion on the matter, other than calling it "important." Your response to this thread is the first usage of the words "sexist," "racist," and "feminist." Your response makes it abundantly clear to me that you took very little time to read and understand the original post, any of the constructive responses here, and have jumped immediately to place of anger. I apologize if there was any misunderstanding in the original post, but this was hardly a call to action.
Would you damn feminist please stfu? You now want a quota within a videogame? Within Art?
Michelangelo's David needs to have 1 boob and a half a vagina for it to be non-misogynistic. Saving Private Ryan would also be better if half the soldiers in WW2 would be female.
It has gotten so bad now that you cant ever just make a movie, game or book now a days. You always have to cater to the fucking PC police that will shout at you if there is no equal representation within in the characters. Not only men-women but also race based. Harry Potter is racist because there are no blacks in it... In fucking England!
Noticed how there are barely any Black cards in HS either? Yo, damn Niggas at Blizzard are all racist!
A non equal representation is NOT sexist/racist, no matter how much feminist claim it is. Nor is it a problem. If white people make stories about white people and black people about blacks then that is the norm and not racist. Tall guys seldomly write books about midgets.
Quotas in media are fucking bullshit. Quotas in the real world are also bullshit. For one feminists only want quotas in high paying jobs. I have not one demand a quota of 50% garbage collectors. Or assembly line workers. Or butchers. On the other hand a quota is the DEFINITION of sexism/racism. If you give someone work not based on his qualification but simply because she is a women or black then you are literally reducing a person down to her race and gender.
I asked for no quota, called for no change, have not referred to this as a problem, and have never stated my opinion on the matter, other than calling it "important." Your response to this thread is the first usage of the words "sexist," "racist," and "feminist." Your response makes it abundantly clear to me that you took very little time to read and understand the original post, any of the constructive responses here, and have jumped immediately to place of anger. I apologize if there was any misunderstanding in the original post, but this was hardly a call to action.
What is your standard by the way? Would we still be having this pointless discussion at 60/40?
I don't have an answer to this. I, personally, think the game is relatively fine the way it is. I understand why someone would/could be upset by the disparity pointed out by the spreadsheet, and I understand why people are angry about this point even being raised. I think the answer is somewhere between those two extremes, and not an easy one to find.
Maybe you and your friend will stop playing over this. And the world will still go on, keep spinning, with the little amount of female characters in hearthstone and all. I'll tell you one thing -- you would lose your shit if you were a black man. My god. Then maybe you'd actually have something real to complain about. Moving on.
Again, it seems like people are putting words in my mouth. I made no complaint. You also don't know that I'm not a black man.
Lastly, for what it's worth, while I can't speak for my friend, this issue will hardly keep me from Hearthstone.
Would you damn feminist please stfu? You now want a quota within a videogame? Within Art?
Michelangelo's David needs to have 1 boob and a half a vagina for it to be non-misogynistic. Saving Private Ryan would also be better if half the soldiers in WW2 would be female.
It has gotten so bad now that you cant ever just make a movie, game or book now a days. You always have to cater to the fucking PC police that will shout at you if there is no equal representation within in the characters. Not only men-women but also race based. Harry Potter is racist because there are no blacks in it... In fucking England!
Noticed how there are barely any Black cards in HS either? Yo, damn Niggas at Blizzard are all racist!
A non equal representation is NOT sexist/racist, no matter how much feminist claim it is. Nor is it a problem. If white people make stories about white people and black people about blacks then that is the norm and not racist. Tall guys seldomly write books about midgets.
Quotas in media are fucking bullshit. Quotas in the real world are also bullshit. For one feminists only want quotas in high paying jobs. I have not one demand a quota of 50% garbage collectors. Or assembly line workers. Or butchers. On the other hand a quota is the DEFINITION of sexism/racism. If you give someone work not based on his qualification but simply because she is a women or black then you are literally reducing a person down to her race and gender.
You are completely ignorant on most of these 'facts' you spout... it's pathetic.
David is a sculpture based on a person... that didn't have boobs or a vagina. Your point is null.
Saving Private Ryan was based on a real war... of which, outside infirmary workers, there were no female soldiers. Your point is null.
There are 1.2 million 'blacks' in the UK. Your point is null.
Anything else you want to add to you masochistic rant? Moron.
This is truly the hugest issue in the world, it should obviously be a 50/50 split because that's how the world works. Also there's no transgender, genderfluid, pansexual etc etc cards, WTF Blizzard???
If your friend dislike the game because it doesn't have a 50/50 split then she's beyond stupid.
On a base level, I think gender equality is important. With that being said, I'll be the first to admit this becomes a much more complex issue to discuss when you're looking at these genders through the lens of artwork, or in this case, Hearthstone. The creators owe it to no one, not even their customers, to fit their product into any given mold, aside from, maybe, not being grossly offensive. (Which I acknowledge, also has its place. And no, I'm not accusing Hearthstone of having done anything offensive.) This includes racial representation, gender representation, age representation, etc.
However, this issue, whether we like it or not, is going to be discussed, debated, and brought up for a long time. It evokes a visceral response in some amount of the human population, and regardless of our personal positions on the matter, it deserves our attention. It's a topic of presidential debates, a staple of American news/media coverage, and it's beginning to pop up in smaller aspects of our everyday life, including the games we play. Multiple perspectives are argued, people feel strongly one way or another, and as we've made apparent by the very small sample size of responses you can read above, it makes people angry.
I'd argue, as a general rule of thumb: if it makes people angry, it's important.
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I recently introduced Hearthstone to a friend of mine, who, for the most part, has really enjoyed the game. I saw her earlier this week, and asked her if she was still playing. Her response was "yes, but..." and casually mentioned how she was a little turned off by the under representation of female characters in the game. This is something I have noticed as well, and had the idea of sitting down and calculating the percentage of male to female to gender-ambiguous/neutral minions that exist in hearthstone.
As it is, it turns out someone beat me to it. A quick Google search turned up this. I found it in the context of a reddit post (which is now locked, and archived) in which the original poster was criticized rather harshly for voicing their opinions on the matter. (Which, is another matter completely, and I won't get into it.)
I've only really glanced at this spreadsheet, and mostly focused on the totals, so I can't speak for the majority of this data, and I make no claims to it's accuracy, the methodology, or any decision making (ie, the thought process behind assigning each minion a gender) but from what I've seen so far, it appears to be pretty accurate.
I (and the friend whom I mentioned earlier) have our own opinions on why this data is important, and why it matters in the context of Hearthstone specifically, and I feel it's of significant value to discuss. (At least enough so to include it on the Hearthpwn forums, if for no other reason than this being the only Hearthstone related forums I actively post on.)
More than anything, I just wanted to get this information out there to anyone who hasn't already seen it, and (leaving my own personal opinions on the matter out of it) see how people feel about this fairly obvious imbalance.
Something that I have noticed in general, including WoW, is that villains are almost always male. Then, given how Hearthstone is based upon WoW, which has a fair share of villains, the result is not surprising.
Anyways, at least a few of the things listed as males on the list I would reasonably categorize them as non-gendered. A tree, as far as I know plant anatomy, is both male and female.
People who refuses to play aggro out of principle are even worse than people who play exclusively aggro.
One should seek to become a complete player and play all archetypes, including ones that he despises for whatever irrational reasons.
So your point is?
No point. I'm just curious how people feel about this, and what they have to say.
As stated above, "More than anything, I just wanted to get this information out there to anyone who hasn't already seen it, and (leaving my own personal opinions on the matter out of it) see how people feel about this fairly obvious imbalance. "
The consumer is 99% male most likely so I'd say there is too many females based on population . Also why is there no Asian characters? No black paladins huh? What the fuck why is there no transgender heroes? WHAT THE FUCK NO GAY HEROES?!?!?
I get it, question stuff, but kindly fuck off with these statements and questions.
"I realized life is this crazy, mystical thing, and sometimes you just go out like a buster."
I can see Jeeves being "gendered", but I can't see Dread Infernal being so. Funnily enough, the list doesn't classify Savannah Highmane as male, despite the fact that only male lions have mane.
People who refuses to play aggro out of principle are even worse than people who play exclusively aggro.
One should seek to become a complete player and play all archetypes, including ones that he despises for whatever irrational reasons.
Honestly this idea is pretty stupid, for various reasons:
1. The game is based off of WoW lore. There is an uneven amount of gender in that game.
2. Some cards you listed as 'MALE' aren't even so. Cult Master is clearly a FEMALE!
3. Some races in WoW lore do not have a female counterpart. (e.g. Imps)
It's not as simple as Oh, there are an even amount of males and females in the real world, so there must be in Hearthstone as well right?
EDIT: Also in the list, living creatures with ambiguous gender are placed under male category.. ok.. (like Treants and Infernals)
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In regards to bad guys, Azshara is a female villain that probably would wipe the floor with any other Azeroth-dweller.
I like to believe that blizzard really pays attention to the fact that every 'discipline' has at least one female representative.
That is also true for typically male dominated domains like the warrior class (Shieldmaiden).
Also there are a lot non-minion cards that feature females (Iceblock,Shadowstep,Blessed Champion).
Also most races are represented in non-stereotypical ways. For example [card]Sunwalker[card] is a female tauren instead of a male human.
Of course there are exceptions : There are no male Dryades because they are by definition the daughters of Cenarius.
I think that is okay for the Warcraft lore to have some rolerestrictions on gender. For example there are only female priestesses of elune to my knowledge.
I do think gender representation is a good thing in the sense that fully utilizing both genders effectively doubles and arguably triples the artistic possibilities within a game. That said, I don't find gender representation to affect my enjoyment of a game - unless it is perhaps a grossly derogatory theme in a game. Perhaps this is why I don't understand why anyone would feel strongly about it, let alone notice it in something like Hearthstone.
I can enjoy male/female characters equally, so it's the quality of the character that matters more than anything. I would enjoy hearing why some people would prefer more female characters, less male characters, the general idea of balance, or whatever the case might be.
Its not a big deal at all. The heroes and most cards are restricted to the original lore which does have more males but in no way do women play a small part either. Some of the biggest and most prominent characters are female, Jaina Proudmoore or Sylvanas Windrunner for example. So while there might be an inequality in pure numbers there is absolutely NO inequality in roles. More will be added as the game goes on. For example the most likely candidate for the second priest hero is Tyrande Whisperwind.
Frankly, your friend is being unreasonable or has some other problem with the game besides this. I have never been less interested in a series because the majority of the cast of characters are female. Albeit there are fewer but more and more all the time. Series like Orange is the new black for example has a VAST majority of females to males but that is just how the story is and the there is nothing wrong with that nor will it prevent me from liking the series.
Creators should never have to make equal amounts of female and male character if they don't want to as long as they portray both genders fairly and accurately it doesn't matter what the percentage of one to the other is.
As a final note, I would like to add that the hearthstone staff are the wrong people to complain too even if it were a problem. They have limited control on what characters they can add so you would be better off asking the team responsible for the source material AKA World of warcraft. Again that would be a waste of time since there is no problem but just something I thought I might as well point that out.
high priest of shenanigans!
Who cares..Definetly not blizzard.
This is truly the hugest issue in the world, it should obviously be a 50/50 split because that's how the world works. Also there's no transgender, genderfluid, pansexual etc etc cards, WTF Blizzard???
If your friend dislike the game because it doesn't have a 50/50 split then she's beyond stupid.