Weekly Card Design Competition #33 - Final Poll [ENDED]
Poll: This week's competition theme: "Strength in Numbers"
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This week's competition theme: "Strength in Numbers" - Multiple Choice
- "Sindragosa" by Imaah 20% of Users - 70 votes
- "Conspiracy" by Asylum_Rhapsody 18.6% of Users - 65 votes
- "Kael'thas Sunstrider" by Freyjan 16.6% of Users - 58 votes
- "Sian'dur the Beastmaster" by PookieJunk 26.6% of Users - 93 votes
- "Dark Iron Bouncer" by Bleakhawt 9.1% of Users - 32 votes
- "Volley" by affekopp111 23.1% of Users - 81 votes
- "Murloc Rocketeer" by MrFlyingOwls 8% of Users - 28 votes
- "Gilnean Siegebreaker" by sixgunsanzo 8% of Users - 28 votes
- "Infernal Rites" by arrumph 10% of Users - 35 votes
- "Gargoyle" by platernity 8.3% of Users - 29 votes
- "Totemic Explosion" by Froggageddon 12% of Users - 42 votes
- "Nok'tal the Savage" by Rikkhan 13.1% of Users - 46 votes
- "Treasure Hunting" by aiDen 9.1% of Users - 32 votes
- "Shield Wall" by galchannel 8.3% of Users - 29 votes
- "Ethereal Duelist" by Sakasa 6.3% of Users - 22 votes
- "Totem Pole" by Dumorte_Montal 5.4% of Users - 19 votes
- "Druid of Goldrinn" by Hassashu 10.6% of Users - 37 votes
- "Ritual of Summoning" by Zukuu 15.7% of Users - 55 votes
- "Ancient Guardian" by Northstar123 14.3% of Users - 50 votes
- "Banshee" by guibegotti 10% of Users - 35 votes
- "Totem Squad" by Dracossack 18.9% of Users - 66 votes
- "Wrath of the Storm" by Elveszett 4.6% of Users - 16 votes
- "Saltscale Tide Lord" by Slouaq 6.9% of Users - 24 votes
- "Shattrath Gatekeeper" by Danko_Paladin 9.7% of Users - 34 votes
- "Surge Breaker" by Jhamel 6.6% of Users - 23 votes
- "Empowered Staff" by Whale_Cancer 6% of Users - 21 votes
Ended Sep 24, 2015
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If we look at Sabotage id say this is totaly balanced ... kappa :P (basicly 3x times the power for the same cost ... yeah)
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Disappointed to see Sian'dur the Beastmaster leading the vote. Too many tokens will make Hearthstone unfriendly to new players.
With similar techs, Ritual of Summoning is much better.
THERE IS NO GAME.
As others have said, it is indeed the case that this card can only be played if your opponent controls 4+ minions, similar to how Cleave, Forked Lightning, and Multi-Shot can only be played if your opponent controls 2+ minions. Otherwise, the card wouldn't qualify for this week's competition.
See Battle Rage. Battle Rage has the same cost, (2), but also counts your hero (Heroes can't have Stealth, so Conspiracy can't count your hero) and has a condition that most minions can meet (most minions can be damaged, few minions have Stealth) without a 1-mana spell combo (Battle Rage combos with Whirlwind just like Conspiracy combos with Conceal). Beyond that, "not exhausting your deck" is actually a double-edged sword because the cards you're getting out of it aren't ones that you know are good; drawing cards from your deck is almost always better than getting random cards. If anything, compared to Battle Rage, Conspiracy is underpowered. But Rogues already have better card draw than Warrior, so I think that's fair.
As for the comparison with Divine Favor, when a 2-card combo and a single card cost the same amount of mana, the 2-card combo should always be better, and the reason it should be better is because you're spending an extra resource (a card). Cards themselves are resources in addition to mana. This is why things like Innervate + Chillwind Yeti and Preparation + Sprint are balanced. Innervate and Preparation reduce the effective mana cost of the next card, but the trade-off is that it costs you an extra card.
No, that is not the case. We take deliberate steps to avoid that being the case, in fact. Cards are weighted by what page they're on, the highest-up-voted cards on a page always making it to the finals, with additional finalists being based on a mathematical formula designed to determine which cards stood out the most on their respective pages. If anything, as described earlier here, getting your card posted on the first page can be a rather brutal experience. There was one card on the first page with over 100 up-votes that narrowly missed out on being a finalist over a card with just 3 more votes. On the flip side, on some of the later pages, your card can stand out and make it to the finals just by making it to a double-digit number of up-votes. The result is that we always inevitably have plenty of later submissions with fewer up-votes that make it to the finals in place of earlier submissions with tons of up-votes.
Fair point on Battle Rage. The main problem with stealth is that it's a kind of protection, while damaging a minion is no protection. So this combo (as a combo) is a lot more powerful than Whirlwind+Battle Rage, even with +1 draw (most of the time) from battle rage. Also, "RNG increases skill"(c), and getting a third Eviscerate is something you cannot achieve with Battle Rage. I count drawing from deck less value than drawing from elsewhere, even if no cost reduction. This may be not a right method of evaluating cards, but it works pretty decently so far.
About card as value - yes, a card played is valued at roughly 1 mana extra ( for example, a totem is 2 mana 0 card, a Goldshire Footman is 1 mana 1 card, although the footman is better than matching totem, another example would be Arcane Shot or Holy Smite versus Hunter power), there is some excess value of 1/30 deck which I don't yet know how to evaluate at runtime, so you're right that 2 card combo for the same mana should be better.
Okay, from the second sight it doesn't feel THAT OP I thought before. You have to have a board presence anyway, and rogues have the hardest time to sustain the presence.
There is a lot of steak here...
I think you have to change your formula. It's not fair that my card was the 2nd most upvoted card and it didn't make it to the final poll. And I'm not salty, I just really think it's unfair.
My votes go to Ritual of summoning and Ethereal Duelist
You were on the first page, first page has so many views that each vote lose a lot of value. Your card would not have won the finals anyway if that is any consolation. You're gonna deal with a lot of salt in the future if this week makes you salty
Group therapy. Need to blow off steam? mega salty? Here is the place
Hearthpwn Community's Balancing of Cards.
The thing is, though, your card was on the first page and therefore had much more opportunity to be seen than cards on later pages. It had much more opportunity to stand out, and it failed to do so. We can't just look at what cards had the most up-votes without any other factors or else these competitions would just be a mad rush to see who could post their card on the first page. We sort of have no choice but to weigh up-votes by page if we want to give folks not submitting immediately a fair chance.
Now, about the formula specifically, be aware that what it measures is how much a card stands out compared to the cards on the same page as it. The basic assumption that we have to make is that each page is, as a whole, about equal in quality to every other page, at least when accounting for the number of valid entries on the page. This baseline assumption is a necessary objective measure or else we get into much more complex issues of how do we decide which pages to weigh higher? What this means is that if the first page has four cards with 110-120 votes and a ton of other cards with votes in the 50-70 range, those top-voted cards aren't actually standing out that much proportionally compared to a card on page 10 with 20 up-votes while everything else on that page only has 3-5.
Regardless, you did very well, and I'll tell you that if we took just one more card to the finals, yours would have been the next one on the list. Don't be discouraged! You did much better than most folks do for their first submission. =)
Speaking of the formula, I wanted to say I noticed something. While I undersrand why you use (number of posts on the page/total page upvotes), I don't understand why you use (total thread upvotes/number of pages). I mean, this number is CONSTANT. For every post in the thread. Thus, it doesn't affect relative positions of different submissions. Why create so much extra work for yourselves?)
Great question! To explain, I first need to remind you that it was the awesome BerserkMidget who actually started this competition and who originated many of its rules and practices, and it was only when Berserk stepped down after the first season of the competition that a couple of us got together to take the reins. Back during Season 1, Berserk actually did all of the data-inputting and up-vote-tallying by hand using Excel, and it was these excel spreadsheets from which we derived the formula. Flux, the HearthPwn head honcho, then helped us take that formula and make a program to help us tally stuff automatically.
It was only a few weeks in that I realized myself that the formula had those seemingly redundant factors that you point out. Now, I believe that the reason those factors were originally included was because Berserk, having only started the competitions, wanted to get some data that was comparable between weeks, like what sorts of weekly themes saw more submissions or what sorts of weekly themes attracted more up-voters. For that, including these factors makes sense because they will vary from week to week.
But to be honest, we don't do that anymore. The competitions are already well established thanks to Berserk's efforts, and thanks to Season 1 precedents we were left with a pretty good idea of what sorts of themes are appropriate for the competition (despite an occasional misstep or experiment here and there). We could very well do away with those factors and have it not affect the competition at all. We just haven't gotten around to it because, well, it doesn't actually change anything. Like you said, those factors are constants within the week and have no bearing on the outcome, so it's low priority. And since we have a program now that helps us tally up these votes, it's not actually any extra work for us at all.
We really should get around to fixing this, but Flux was very busy until recently dealing with TGT release stuff, so we never got around to changing the formula in the program when we realized it. You are right, though, that we should at least fix the formula that we show publicly, if only to make the competition's workings less obscure.
This is not true. I went through thirty weeks of competitions to see if your page and placement on the page had any effect on your chance to win, and found none. The first few pages are NOT more likely to win.
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And that's all for this week! Congrats to our winner! ^_^
Competition #35 will be up within the hour, so stay tuned!
CG to the winner ;-)
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