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Quote from Leaga »

Quote from Semioteric »

As was mentioned, this is basically cost so high because it is a third Deadly Poison, which everyone would play if you could. Playing this will really improve the value of Blade Flurry

Then how about we talk about the absolutely terrible design decisions behind this card. Rogue is already only played as Miracle because it doesn't have the tools to compete otherwise. They're nerfing the entire point of miracle decks and giving us purposefully overcosted versions of cards that we already have. That doesn't seem like good design.

Or how about the idea of using logic that made kidnapper one of the least played and widely agreed upon worst cards in the game to design a new card. Does that sound like good design?

 

Its kind of BS to say that everyone would run a third deadly poison so this should cost THAT much more than its worth. The only reason people would run a 3rd Deadly Poison is because of its cost. Its not like its some Godlike effect. Plus, why is it only Rogue effects are bound by that logic? Paladins have Aldor and Humility. Mages have a lot of freeze. Priests don't pay ungodly amounts extra for Temple Enforcer. A card shouldn't be more expensive just because it is functionally similar to another card.

I know this is an uncommon thing to do on the internet but after thinking about it some more you are right and I am wrong. I was valuing it higher than it is worth because I really struggled with the inclusion of a second blade flurry in my decks -- you need it right now because of the zoo/hunter matchups but if you are forced to use your poisons it can be so dead. However, thinking about this some more I think I would rather just run Assassin's Blade

Quote from Leaga » 

 

Listen to yourself, I mean... Nobody is defending new Druid cards by going "this is really good with innervate."  Any spell is going to be good with Prep. That's the point of prep. Its to make spells cheaper and better. I think if the defense to its too expensive is its playable with prep, then you kind of proved my point. 

 

lets be honest for a minute tho,why would you run this and prep in a deck instead of deadly poison and cold blood? And if you have both Deadly Poisons and Cold Bloods and Prep AND this, then your deck is either A) going to suffer from some very bad draws or B) need a miracle draw engine... Which they just nerfed.

 

And I'm not complaining about the randomness. That's fine. But generally when a card says random, its a little cheaper because the uncertainty makes it worse. It doesn't feel like this had that same logic applied.

Preparation is more of a best circumstance and I wasn't meaning to imply that it is THE card that makes this playable. Nor was I trying to say "OMG so STRONK" just that it has potential as core.

I was thinking something more along the line of a midrange tempo archetype would run this. It feels like you assumed I was intending this as THE lethal combo for the deck but that's not the case it would be 1 among several with interchangeable pieces. I just see it as making a deck archetype that I've been working on, a bit more consistent.(It lacked valuable mid-game targets for Preparation prior to GVG.) 

What I take away from looking at the GVG card list is that they want to open OPTIONS for class-deck archetype relations, and the one thing I see everyone assuming when observing these cards is that deck archetypes will maintain their current class associations. This makes it hard to portray innovative thoughts because everyone is running on different tracks of logic yet to be consolidated in actual game play.

My quote of your RNG comment wasn't intended as a "stop whining" thing, just a segue for sharing my two cents. You make valid points I just think judging new cards as specifically bad before having played GVG is a bit naive. We should discover them to be bad cards in Practice, not in Theory.

then again I question my sanity regularly so what do I know?

Was that two gracious and/or self depricating posts in a row? Did my internet just break? WHAT!?!

In all seriousness though,

I do kind of hope that I am wrong and that the card is awesome. I just really hate the cost associated. It seems like really bad value compared to what is already available. I think if the meta slows down and you are able to consolidate the two card slots that you would spend on Deadly Poison and Cold Blood into one then maybe it will be worth it to overpay just to have the card slot opened up. But as of now, I cant see that happening. 

Errygo, I get it. I guess complaining was the wrong word choice. I was just making the point that, whether or not random is a good thing or how managable it is/will be, it is important to note that usually anything which takes that control away has the price lowered. It is a definite downside because it makes the card more difficult to use properly. For the amount of downsides, I am completely blown away by the cost.

And that evaluation isnt made with any certain deck archetype in mind. It is made purely comparing the value of the card to the value of other similar cards. Maybe a certain deck archetype will find a way to maximize its value but on its surface that card is bad. 

And for the record, I'm not saying that I wont experiment with it or that it is unplayable. I run a Paladin deck with Holy Wrath and a Shaman deck with Far Sight. Sometimes "bad cards" can be pretty good when built around correctly. But the card is still crazily priced and I honestly dont think it will open up options. Or at the least, not many options. 

Quote from Leaga »

Then how about we talk about the absolutely terrible design decisions behind this card. Rogue is already only played as Miracle because it doesn't have the tools to compete otherwise. They're nerfing the entire point of miracle decks and giving us purposefully overcosted versions of cards that we already have. That doesn't seem like good design.

Yes because blizzards sole purpose was to destroy a single class. You need to save these assumptions until the set comes out. Rogue is excellent at tempo, throwing this out for them won't be much of an issue if it results in board control... They want rogue moving away from Miracle and gave them ways to compete in the way they were intended to compete. Just because you can't see how you can use the new cards  doesn't mean it is (or they) are useless. People who think this way are sheepish; waiting for streamers to popularize cards and figure out strats for them, only then to act like they are the meta kings and knew all along. 

Yes rogue got some really good cards for the tempo archetype. Miracle is still going to be around...will it be good, well we will find out. I do not think miracle is dead, nerfing Auctioneer to 6 will make the deck a lot worse against aggro, because you get most of your answers but it is still gonna be a decent deck against traditional control priest and warrior. 

This card, i'm quite sure, has some value, but it is hard to evaluate it without some testing in a proper deck.

One slightly better effect of a deadly poison and one middle ground effect of a cold blood, in a one single card, for double price and random factor, that can be manageable. I think it's worth trying, at least.

It is hard to say anything before testing, but I think this card is highly underrated. As said, it is a third Deadly Poison which is huge! The argument, that it is more expensive than Deadly Poison plus Cold Blood is invalid, as this card has a two in one effect. You just can't calculate like that, because low costed spells generally have a better "ratio". If added to a 2 durability weapon, it is 9 damage for (4). How is this overpriced? This will probably be a 1-of in most decks.

Quote from Rusery »

Quote from Leaga »

Then how about we talk about the absolutely terrible design decisions behind this card. Rogue is already only played as Miracle because it doesn't have the tools to compete otherwise. They're nerfing the entire point of miracle decks and giving us purposefully overcosted versions of cards that we already have. That doesn't seem like good design.

Yes because blizzards sole purpose was to destroy a single class. You need to save these assumptions until the set comes out. Rogue is excellent at tempo, throwing this out for them won't be much of an issue if it results in board control... They want rogue moving away from Miracle and gave them ways to compete in the way they were intended to compete. Just because you can't see how you can use the new cards  doesn't mean it is (or they) are useless. People who think this way are sheepish; waiting for streamers to popularize cards and figure out strats for them, only then to act like they are the meta kings and knew all along. 

Literally the comment before yours is me and I end it saying that I run a Paladin deck with Holy Wrath and a Shaman deck with Far Sight and that I will be experimenting with the card but that I think the value is terrible. Last night I laddered with a Tempo Rogue deck that had a Headcrack in it.  Tell me again why it is you find people like me "sheepish;waiting for streamers to popularize cards." 

It's fine to disagree on cards, that's why I'm here is to intelligently discuss. That's why every single one of my posts in this thread has broken  down my points rather than needlessly flaming the other people.  At this point Tempo is underpowered, as is obvious by how under represented it is, and my point was that if the design decision of this card, as others had suggested, was to give purposefully over costed versions of cards we already have then that was a poor design decision. If you would like to join me in that conversation then please make an argument for how this card helps a tempo deck better than other options available.

Otherwise, please take your flame and your vague comments about how it helps give rogues options "the way they were intended to compete" elsewhere. 

TL:DR all the dramaaaaaaaaa.

I drafted this card in my Rogue's arena run, so far it was my lethal every win. It's just too strong if you have a minion on board, kind of 4 mana Leeroy, even better.

I originally thought this card was a bit over-costed but the burst it can provide is insane.  I think this will likely be a one of in most rogue decks as a finisher/enabler for blade flurry which will be a likely 2x of in rogue decks due to the increase in weapon attack buffs provided by the GvG expansion. 

great card for tempo rogue/pirate

Quote from Erryggo »

   

 

Quote from Leaga » 

 

Listen to yourself, I mean... Nobody is defending new Druid cards by going "this is really good with innervate."  Any spell is going to be good with Prep. That's the point of prep. Its to make spells cheaper and better. I think if the defense to its too expensive is its playable with prep, then you kind of proved my point. 

 

lets be honest for a minute tho,why would you run this and prep in a deck instead of deadly poison and cold blood? And if you have both Deadly Poisons and Cold Bloods and Prep AND this, then your deck is either A) going to suffer from some very bad draws or B) need a miracle draw engine... Which they just nerfed.

 

And I'm not complaining about the randomness. That's fine. But generally when a card says random, its a little cheaper because the uncertainty makes it worse. It doesn't feel like this had that same logic applied.

Preparation is more of a best circumstance and I wasn't meaning to imply that it is THE card that makes this playable. Nor was I trying to say "OMG so STRONK" just that it has potential as core.

I was thinking something more along the line of a midrange tempo archetype would run this. It feels like you assumed I was intending this as THE lethal combo for the deck but that's not the case it would be 1 among several with interchangeable pieces. I just see it as making a deck archetype that I've been working on, a bit more consistent.(It lacked valuable mid-game targets for Preparation prior to GVG.) 

What I take away from looking at the GVG card list is that they want to open OPTIONS for class-deck archetype relations, and the one thing I see everyone assuming when observing these cards is that deck archetypes will maintain their current class associations. This makes it hard to portray innovative thoughts because everyone is running on different tracks of logic yet to be consolidated in actual game play.

My quote of your RNG comment wasn't intended as a "stop whining" thing, just a segue for sharing my two cents. You make valid points I just think judging new cards as specifically bad before having played GVG is a bit naive. We should discover them to be bad cards in Practice, not in Theory.

then again I question my sanity regularly so what do I know?

lol, well said! and you are not alone.

I think it will make a niche for itself replacing Cold Blood in certain constructed decks.

All the spare parts and high tempo mechs could serve to mitigate it's cost through card synergy or a kind of tempo-control style.

I like the concept of getting Mimiron's Head, Concealed with buddies and next turn using a spare part to combo Tinker's Sharpsword Oil after it pops. Whether setting it up is feasible or not is up for debate but Iron Sensei and the fact that Harvest Golem will be a mech certainly help. 

Alternatively you could go bouncy weapon pirates with this. I say this mainly because of Ship's Cannon, One-eyed Cheat also could be strong if you can protect it or dodge removal. This makes pirates capable of some pretty steep tempo shifts in the mid to late game. card draw is an issue if you can't get the keys for your combos, but you can thin your top deck with Captain's Parrot and get extra value out of your minions with bounces. Deadly Poison, Captain Greenskin and now Tinker's Sharpsword Oil, and Goblin Auto-Barber give pirates lots of activators alongside even just your hero power. 

Any thoughts? someone brainstorm with me.

Quote from vikan »

it looks fine for arena yes but I dont think it will make much of a splash in constructed we'll see. Its true as many say that they gave rogue alot of good tempo and midrange cards but no card draw :/ its gonna be tough

There's a reasonable amount of new low-cost cards that could synergize well with neutral card drawers like Cult Master... I don't understand why people hate this card, it always worked perfectly fine for me. You have to play it correctly like any deck that requires slight brain activity but I've been drawing so much cards with this... sometimes more than 4-5.

I might be wrong;

I'm not a super great player, honestly, my best ladder climb was Rank 5 I think, wich is probably categorized as a '' filthy casual '' ! :P