I agree with everyone that this card is way better than Reincarnate. That said though, it is a lot less versatile, since reincarnate can also be used to:
Heal minions back to full.
Remove debuffs like Peacekeeper/Humility.
Remove buffs from minions like vanCleef, undertaker or something taunted up by Argus.
Allow charge minions to attack twice.
Activate non-deathrattle death effects like Kel'Thuzad resurrecting himself.
Although I agree Feign Death is superior, it doesn't seem unreasonable that Blizzard budgeted it the same, considering its decreased flexibility.
What planet are you on lol? I cannot recall a SINGLE situation where reincarnate was used in any of the bullet points you made lol. This hunter card is basically Baron Rivendare for 2 mana. Simple as that. Plus it's instant and doesn't rely on a minion surviving.
Those points are true. You can use Reincernate in that way, Feign Death not. The benefit of Feign Death increases the bigger your board is.
All true, but the superiority of any of these very situational moves compared to merely causing two minions low level minions (LH + HC) to activate through FD, then attack is a not even a debate just based of frequency.
I agree with everyone that this card is way better than Reincarnate. That said though, it is a lot less versatile, since reincarnate can also be used to:
Heal minions back to full.
Remove debuffs like Peacekeeper/Humility.
Remove buffs from minions like vanCleef, undertaker or something taunted up by Argus.
Allow charge minions to attack twice.
Activate non-deathrattle death effects like Kel'Thuzad resurrecting himself.
Although I agree Feign Death is superior, it doesn't seem unreasonable that Blizzard budgeted it the same, considering its decreased flexibility.
What planet are you on lol? I cannot recall a SINGLE situation where reincarnate was used in any of the bullet points you made lol. This hunter card is basically Baron Rivendare for 2 mana. Simple as that. Plus it's instant and doesn't rely on a minion surviving.
Exactly the bullet points mention are scenarios that are unlikely and just involve bad plays like half damaging fire elemental. (AN INSANELY BAD PLAY)
Peace keepering anything and not destroying it with kodo or with board is just bad! And indicates you were not threatened (No enemy board!) before reincarnate would even help you (Basically meaning other cards helped you get far ahead not reincarnate).
Removing buffs is ok and good value IF the opponent doesn't know your potential of doing that and doesn't play around silence which is just a bad play, a good play involves conceal and reincarnate doesn't do anything in that scenario.
Allowing charge minions to attack twice is ok, except shaman strategy involves board control and their hero power doesn't help face rush strategy and with limited draw it's even worse. Free charge while the enemy has board means nothing if you aren't geared to rush down the opponent.
Reviving kel isn't really that great, (If you have no board due to 2 dead cards till turn10) and triggering all death-rattles could be a lot better with kel on the board. This is the one scenario where reincarnate maybe equal to feign death. Every other scenario allows feign death much more potential mana value 2 4/4s +2 beast cards +2 secrets in play. It's absolutely nuts.
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Edit: Another big problem with reincarnate is the inability to attack with the minion if a taunt prevents damage or kills the minion intended to take the spell. Feign-death allows you even in this situation a better scenario where you get the trigger and then a sac death which is not possible with reincarnate. Sometimes the value of sacing is quite high in the case of high priority targets like ragnaros or ysera where the minion must die in-order for you to get ahead.
For example: Cairne on board, enemy rag is at 4 hp from Lighting bolt or something, you can either sac Carine and destroy value of reincarnate in your hand or you miss an attack this turn and rag stays alive (Which is really bad by the way since rag can kill Cairne anyway). Feign death is actually better as a card for a single use in this case. Quite ridiculous and signifies they learned a lot about this kind of mechanic and give hunters a better version of it.
What planet are you on lol? I cannot recall a SINGLE situation where reincarnate was used in any of the bullet points you made lol. This hunter card is basically Baron Rivendare for 2 mana. Simple as that. Plus it's instant and doesn't rely on a minion surviving.
As I said, I agree that Feign death is significantly better. I'm saying the only downside is that it is less versatile. So if you're asking me if I'm on a planet where Reincarnate is as strong as Feign Death: of course it is not. Blizzard seems to be though, and the versatility is the only reason I can think of why they believe these cards are worth the same amount of mana.
I am surprised though that you've never seen reincarnate used for either the turn 10 Kel'Thuzad + reincarnate combo, which was pretty popular in deathrattle shaman before the meta became so fast nor for the burst finisher reincarnate + Al'Akir combo (or +leeroy before he was nerfed to 5 mana). I've also had to use it once or twice exactly on vanCleef simply to slow Miracle Rogue down.
The healing and removing taunts is something I've really only seen in arena though, so I'm not surprised you never ran into that in constructed. All in all, the versatility is nowhere near the value of feign death's ability to trigger two or more deathrattles at once, but to say it is never useful is not true either.
What planet are you on lol? I cannot recall a SINGLE situation where reincarnate was used in any of the bullet points you made lol. This hunter card is basically Baron Rivendare for 2 mana. Simple as that. Plus it's instant and doesn't rely on a minion surviving.
As I said, I agree that Feign death is significantly better. I'm saying the only downside is that it is less versatile. So if you're asking me if I'm on a planet where Reincarnate is as strong as Feign Death: of course it is not. Blizzard seems to be though, and the versatility is the only reason I can think of why they believe these cards are worth the same amount of mana.
I am surprised though that you've never seen reincarnate used for either the turn 10 Kel'Thuzad + reincarnate combo, which was pretty popular in deathrattle shaman before the meta became so fast nor for the burst finisher reincarnate + Al'Akir combo (or +leeroy before he was nerfed to 5 mana). I've also had to use it once or twice exactly on vanCleef simply to slow Miracle Rogue down.
The healing and removing taunts is something I've really only seen in arena though, so I'm not surprised you never ran into that in constructed. All in all, the versatility is nowhere near the value of feign death's ability to trigger two or more deathrattles at once, but to say it is never useful is not true either.
But FD is way MORE versatile than Reincarnate, not regarding your opponent but focusing on pure gain, there are far more opportunities allowing you to play TWO. This fact clarifies why it's much more versatile. Having two of the first six cards drawn either Reincarnate/FD in Shaman/Hunter respectively would have widely different effects on the outcome of the game, would you agree?
I agree with everyone that this card is way better than Reincarnate. That said though, it is a lot less versatile, since reincarnate can also be used to:
Heal minions back to full.
Remove debuffs like Peacekeeper/Humility.
Remove buffs from minions like vanCleef, undertaker or something taunted up by Argus.
Allow charge minions to attack twice.
Activate non-deathrattle death effects like Kel'Thuzad resurrecting himself.
Although I agree Feign Death is superior, it doesn't seem unreasonable that Blizzard budgeted it the same, considering its decreased flexibility.
What planet are you on lol? I cannot recall a SINGLE situation where reincarnate was used in any of the bullet points you made lol. This hunter card is basically Baron Rivendare for 2 mana. Simple as that. Plus it's instant and doesn't rely on a minion surviving.
I have a Shaman Reincarnate deck that I play just for fun in casual since it is not competitive, and I have used it in all those situations at least once. And I'll add another one: use it on an enemy minion that has a negative deathrattle, like Deathlord: I once got Cairne this way.
awesome card for the current deathrattle agro hunter,it will make it even more powerful,you can even add that Baron what was it called that triggers deatrattles twice
Actually, these are the two minions I'm least worried about - the triggering condition is the death not the deathrattle of the other.
Well, assuming one of the terrible duo is dead, then FD triggers the other one's deathrattle. The condition states if the (other) is also dead, not both. Now the problem is also. If it is part of the condition or just an assumption that comes from the up-to-then fact that deathrattle=death of the minion. I would love a clarification.
Actually, these are the two minions I'm least worried about - the triggering condition is the death not the deathrattle of the other.
That's not how you would play it, though. You play one of them. After it dies you summon the second one and cast feign death. You get Thaddius and the second one, if not silenced, will give you another Thaddius when it dies.
This works even if they silence the first one so there is no counterplay.
But this is exactly how it would work with reincarnate too, I guess.
I agree with everyone that this card is way better than Reincarnate. That said though, it is a lot less versatile, since reincarnate can also be used to:
Heal minions back to full.
Remove debuffs like Peacekeeper/Humility.
Remove buffs from minions like vanCleef, undertaker or something taunted up by Argus.
Allow charge minions to attack twice.
Activate non-deathrattle death effects like Kel'Thuzad resurrecting himself.
Although I agree Feign Death is superior, it doesn't seem unreasonable that Blizzard budgeted it the same, considering its decreased flexibility.
What planet are you on lol? I cannot recall a SINGLE situation where reincarnate was used in any of the bullet points you made lol. This hunter card is basically Baron Rivendare for 2 mana. Simple as that. Plus it's instant and doesn't rely on a minion surviving.
I have a Shaman Reincarnate deck that I play just for fun in casual since it is not competitive, and I have used it in all those situations at least once. And I'll add another one: use it on an enemy minion that has a negative deathrattle, like Deathlord: I once got Cairne this way.
Yea except battlecry minion are very important for shaman to stay ahead since their draw is abysmal, once I reincarnated a deathlord and summoned two battle cry minions and lost the game (A priest obviously).
But FD is way MORE versatile than Reincarnate, not regarding your opponent but focusing on pure gain, there are far more opportunities allowing you to play TWO. This fact clarifies why it's much more versatile. Having two of the first six cards drawn either Reincarnate/FD in Shaman/Hunter respectively would have widely different effects on the outcome of the game, would you agree?
I wouldn't say that FD is necessarily more versatile, but I would say that when you can use it's versatility, the gain is much larger. That is to say, the number of situations where you can get better value than reincarnate may be lower - requiring you to have at least TWO worthwhile deathrattles on the board. But when you use it there, the value is amazing. Meanwhile, alternative uses for reincarnate may be flexible, but they usually give you less value than the obvious use of triggering a deathrattle. With reincarnate, you can bypass a taunted up enemy instead of triggering your sylvanas. With Feign death you can trigger your harvest golem on top of triggering your sylvanas.
In other words, the thing that makes Feign death so strong is that it may be a less flexible reincarnate with just one deathrattle minion out, but as soon as you have two its value becomes way better and in the rare case where you can proc it on three or more deathrattle minions, it may often be a win right there. And that is the reason it is not bad having two. You can also use a second reincarnate to get an extra damaged golem or loot horder's draw, and if that was good enough to justify a 2-mana card, you could consider it good value too. But just triggering one single early deathrattle isn't good enough, which is why early reincarnate sucks most of the time.
Reincarnate's "versatility" isn't worth much if you have the choice of a high number of bad options, where Feign Death may only do one thing, but that thing is so strong that it is superior anyway.
With the incredible amount of potential this card has, I think 2 mana is just too low. Playing this under certain conditions can just win you the game for 2 mana. How often do you play vs a hunter that doesn't have at least 2 deathrattle minions on the board on turn 2/3?
Imagine getting opened with an UT + 2 or 3, 1-2 mana cost deathrattle minions (Don't tell me this is an unlikely scenario) only to play a DR one drop + FD on turn 3? In the most common scenarios this will include 2-3 of these: Leper gnome, Loot Hoarder, Haunted creeper, mad scientist and Webspinner. I'll take freezing trap + 2 1/1s for 2 mana any day of the week. Or 2x card draw. Or any other combination of the 2 above.
Imagine midrange hunters running sylvanas + highmanes. If even one of those two is on the board when FD is played, it's ridiculous. If you add any other DR card to the scenario, it's just beyond stupid. Playing Ragnaros on turn 8 on an empty board? Nope, 8 mana mindcontrol + Sylvanas incoming (Yes it's also possible with reincarnate, but 1. Reincarnate is not as versatile and 2. Who runs reincarnate for that purpose? Shaman already has enough single target removal).
I just don't get from where the hell they get the idea that deathrattle/mad scientist Hunters need to be any stronger than they are
Sacing minions is so important in this game in fact you do it almost every turn, that this makes Feign death better than reincarnate even if there is only one minion since with FD you get to trigger and sac which is not possible with reincarnate, Reincarnate basically only allows you to expand current board not effect the enemy board on that turn.
For example trigger webspinner with FD then sac it into enemy 5/1 on the same turn very important difference between reincarnate which can only recreate the spider on that turn.
Edit: Another example where FD is better than reincarnate with sylvanas in play you can steal one minion with it and then sac her into another minion to steal two in one turn. Other plays include faceless her fd sac to steal 3 minions at once. All better than reincarnate.
I have a Shaman Reincarnate deck that I play just for fun in casual since it is not competitive, and I have used it in all those situations at least once. And I'll add another one: use it on an enemy minion that has a negative deathrattle, like Deathlord: I once got Cairne this way.
Yea except battlecry minion are very important for shaman to stay ahead since their draw is abysmal, once I reincarnated a deathlord and summoned two battle cry minions and lost the game (A priest obviously).
Well, I in my reincarnate deck there's no minion with battlecry, it's all deathrattle with undertaker to take maximimum value. It has 2 loot hoarders and thalnos, and with rivendare out you get two cards out of them, even more with reincarnate. As I said is a deck for fun, it's nice when you get the combos but it's slow and draw dependant so it's not competitive.
By the way, if you had earth elementals (which I don't) in the deck you could also get them with the opponent's deathlord without the overload ;)
Those points are true. You can use Reincernate in that way, Feign Death not. The benefit of Feign Death increases the bigger your board is.
Well now Reincarnate looks very poor comparing to this. Yes different rarities but Blizz why 2 mana? It will be ok at 3 mana i think
All true, but the superiority of any of these very situational moves compared to merely causing two minions low level minions (LH + HC) to activate through FD, then attack is a not even a debate just based of frequency.
points 1+2 are also answerable by earthshock.
Actually, these are the two minions I'm least worried about - the triggering condition is the death not the deathrattle of the other.
Exactly the bullet points mention are scenarios that are unlikely and just involve bad plays like half damaging fire elemental. (AN INSANELY BAD PLAY)
Peace keepering anything and not destroying it with kodo or with board is just bad! And indicates you were not threatened (No enemy board!) before reincarnate would even help you (Basically meaning other cards helped you get far ahead not reincarnate).
Removing buffs is ok and good value IF the opponent doesn't know your potential of doing that and doesn't play around silence which is just a bad play, a good play involves conceal and reincarnate doesn't do anything in that scenario.
Allowing charge minions to attack twice is ok, except shaman strategy involves board control and their hero power doesn't help face rush strategy and with limited draw it's even worse. Free charge while the enemy has board means nothing if you aren't geared to rush down the opponent.
Reviving kel isn't really that great, (If you have no board due to 2 dead cards till turn10) and triggering all death-rattles could be a lot better with kel on the board. This is the one scenario where reincarnate maybe equal to feign death. Every other scenario allows feign death much more potential mana value 2 4/4s +2 beast cards +2 secrets in play. It's absolutely nuts.
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Edit: Another big problem with reincarnate is the inability to attack with the minion if a taunt prevents damage or kills the minion intended to take the spell. Feign-death allows you even in this situation a better scenario where you get the trigger and then a sac death which is not possible with reincarnate. Sometimes the value of sacing is quite high in the case of high priority targets like ragnaros or ysera where the minion must die in-order for you to get ahead.
For example: Cairne on board, enemy rag is at 4 hp from Lighting bolt or something, you can either sac Carine and destroy value of reincarnate in your hand or you miss an attack this turn and rag stays alive (Which is really bad by the way since rag can kill Cairne anyway). Feign death is actually better as a card for a single use in this case. Quite ridiculous and signifies they learned a lot about this kind of mechanic and give hunters a better version of it.
As I said, I agree that Feign death is significantly better. I'm saying the only downside is that it is less versatile. So if you're asking me if I'm on a planet where Reincarnate is as strong as Feign Death: of course it is not. Blizzard seems to be though, and the versatility is the only reason I can think of why they believe these cards are worth the same amount of mana.
I am surprised though that you've never seen reincarnate used for either the turn 10 Kel'Thuzad + reincarnate combo, which was pretty popular in deathrattle shaman before the meta became so fast nor for the burst finisher reincarnate + Al'Akir combo (or +leeroy before he was nerfed to 5 mana). I've also had to use it once or twice exactly on vanCleef simply to slow Miracle Rogue down.
The healing and removing taunts is something I've really only seen in arena though, so I'm not surprised you never ran into that in constructed. All in all, the versatility is nowhere near the value of feign death's ability to trigger two or more deathrattles at once, but to say it is never useful is not true either.
Well, yeah, I agree, they're purposely a low case scenario.
And yet, recalculate - BRD = x2 DR so. 2x 2/1s + 2 cards and that's before you've attacked, which Reincarnate doesn't offer.
BRD = Barron RivenDale... my bad
But FD is way MORE versatile than Reincarnate, not regarding your opponent but focusing on pure gain, there are far more opportunities allowing you to play TWO. This fact clarifies why it's much more versatile. Having two of the first six cards drawn either Reincarnate/FD in Shaman/Hunter respectively would have widely different effects on the outcome of the game, would you agree?
I have a Shaman Reincarnate deck that I play just for fun in casual since it is not competitive, and I have used it in all those situations at least once. And I'll add another one: use it on an enemy minion that has a negative deathrattle, like Deathlord: I once got Cairne this way.
awesome card for the current deathrattle agro hunter,it will make it even more powerful,you can even add that Baron what was it called that triggers deatrattles twice
Well, assuming one of the terrible duo is dead, then FD triggers the other one's deathrattle. The condition states if the (other) is also dead, not both. Now the problem is also. If it is part of the condition or just an assumption that comes from the up-to-then fact that deathrattle=death of the minion. I would love a clarification.
That's not how you would play it, though. You play one of them. After it dies you summon the second one and cast feign death. You get Thaddius and the second one, if not silenced, will give you another Thaddius when it dies.
This works even if they silence the first one so there is no counterplay.
But this is exactly how it would work with reincarnate too, I guess.
Yea except battlecry minion are very important for shaman to stay ahead since their draw is abysmal, once I reincarnated a deathlord and summoned two battle cry minions and lost the game (A priest obviously).
I wouldn't say that FD is necessarily more versatile, but I would say that when you can use it's versatility, the gain is much larger. That is to say, the number of situations where you can get better value than reincarnate may be lower - requiring you to have at least TWO worthwhile deathrattles on the board. But when you use it there, the value is amazing. Meanwhile, alternative uses for reincarnate may be flexible, but they usually give you less value than the obvious use of triggering a deathrattle. With reincarnate, you can bypass a taunted up enemy instead of triggering your sylvanas. With Feign death you can trigger your harvest golem on top of triggering your sylvanas.
In other words, the thing that makes Feign death so strong is that it may be a less flexible reincarnate with just one deathrattle minion out, but as soon as you have two its value becomes way better and in the rare case where you can proc it on three or more deathrattle minions, it may often be a win right there. And that is the reason it is not bad having two. You can also use a second reincarnate to get an extra damaged golem or loot horder's draw, and if that was good enough to justify a 2-mana card, you could consider it good value too. But just triggering one single early deathrattle isn't good enough, which is why early reincarnate sucks most of the time.
Reincarnate's "versatility" isn't worth much if you have the choice of a high number of bad options, where Feign Death may only do one thing, but that thing is so strong that it is superior anyway.
With the incredible amount of potential this card has, I think 2 mana is just too low. Playing this under certain conditions can just win you the game for 2 mana. How often do you play vs a hunter that doesn't have at least 2 deathrattle minions on the board on turn 2/3?
Imagine getting opened with an UT + 2 or 3, 1-2 mana cost deathrattle minions (Don't tell me this is an unlikely scenario) only to play a DR one drop + FD on turn 3? In the most common scenarios this will include 2-3 of these: Leper gnome, Loot Hoarder, Haunted creeper, mad scientist and Webspinner. I'll take freezing trap + 2 1/1s for 2 mana any day of the week. Or 2x card draw. Or any other combination of the 2 above.
Imagine midrange hunters running sylvanas + highmanes. If even one of those two is on the board when FD is played, it's ridiculous. If you add any other DR card to the scenario, it's just beyond stupid. Playing Ragnaros on turn 8 on an empty board? Nope, 8 mana mindcontrol + Sylvanas incoming (Yes it's also possible with reincarnate, but 1. Reincarnate is not as versatile and 2. Who runs reincarnate for that purpose? Shaman already has enough single target removal).
I just don't get from where the hell they get the idea that deathrattle/mad scientist Hunters need to be any stronger than they are
Sacing minions is so important in this game in fact you do it almost every turn, that this makes Feign death better than reincarnate even if there is only one minion since with FD you get to trigger and sac which is not possible with reincarnate, Reincarnate basically only allows you to expand current board not effect the enemy board on that turn.
For example trigger webspinner with FD then sac it into enemy 5/1 on the same turn very important difference between reincarnate which can only recreate the spider on that turn.
Edit: Another example where FD is better than reincarnate with sylvanas in play you can steal one minion with it and then sac her into another minion to steal two in one turn. Other plays include faceless her fd sac to steal 3 minions at once. All better than reincarnate.
Absolutely.
Well, I in my reincarnate deck there's no minion with battlecry, it's all deathrattle with undertaker to take maximimum value. It has 2 loot hoarders and thalnos, and with rivendare out you get two cards out of them, even more with reincarnate. As I said is a deck for fun, it's nice when you get the combos but it's slow and draw dependant so it's not competitive.
By the way, if you had earth elementals (which I don't) in the deck you could also get them with the opponent's deathlord without the overload ;)
So are the other cards revealed today supposed to convince us that Feign Death can be countered effectively?
This card is ridiculous.
Can't wait to see what people manage to pull off with this! Cards like Sylvanas gain are going to gain a whole new meaning in hunter decks.