Hearthpwn

Don't worry !

You're solid arguments will win in the end and Blizzard will probably nerf whatever people like you ask for because they always do .

Now carry on whining about everything that does not fit your way of thinking. 

The entire meta is being dominated by aggro decks, YET AGAIN, and people are seriously calling control players "Whiners"....

Not a moderater, but it should be obvious that name calling and framing other people's arguments as ridiculous is no way to have a discussion.

Not singling any one out here as I've seen several posts from either side devolve into this. You know who you are, please take a break or whatever it is that you need to do.

It's really not that OP in the grand scheme of things. And if get nerfed, another strong deck will just take it's place as the new deck to complain about. There's Discover Mage, Taunt Warrior, the new Evolve Shaman that are all top contenders. 

Personally I think the quest is fine, but too consistent too early. I'd prefer they just change ferry man to reduce consistency. At that point people would have to run Shadow Caster compensate, which will naturally pull the curve and quest completion to latter turns. Of course someone would have to test that change to make sure it works as intended. And yes there would still be games where people high rolled and complete the quest early (mimic pod into shadow step for instance). But with a ladder deck loosing consistency should force the deck to change.

Basically I want the deck to still exist, but be what I though it would be at launch : a fun deck designed to abuse battle crys that on average doesn't finish the quest till turn 7-9.

Quote from Nicholasjh >>

There are now cheap control decks which are pretty amazing and fun, 

 

Quote from SchruteBucks>>

There is no tech card because any that would be good specifically against quest rogue or generally against quests would itself be broken (against quests) and too narrow to see actual play. 

I agree. Either it would be too powerful and/or too narrow to be worth printing.

(and now my post is stuck in italics....great...cannot turn off italics for some reason).  

Here is a trick to get around that problem - copy your text with Ctrl + C like normal and then paste over it using Ctrl + Shift + V to paste without formatting. If you edit your post and do this you can remove the Italics.

I'd argue that this is what needs changing. If the cost were increased, you could stil play Crystal Rogue but it would be more of a midrange deck that you don't immediately  lose to once the quest is complete (besides...quests were supposed to be late game finishers). 

I don't see how a Midrange Crystal Rogue would work when the quest forces them to un-develop their board instead of developing minions in a straight forward on curve manner. Shadowcaster is great, and would be a requirement in Midrange Crystal Rogue, but it requires that you have something on the board. A Midrange Crystal Rogue would lose to any real Midrange deck because of the tempo loss of bouncing and also because Midrange Crystal Rogue would be handicapping itself by spending 5+ mana on a quest reward that would nerf all the good late-game-on-curve minions to 5/5's. Midnight and Azure Drake might be an exception though, but the issue would still be board control, which Crystal Rogue is almost guaranteed to lose against Aggro and real Midrange which are playing on curve.

Silence and Transform NEEDS to work on the 5/5s. There is no reason for it not to.

But why does it NEED to work on 5/5's? I am still not convinced it should be changed because the ROI or Return Of Investment for making that change is very low, as I've explained before.

Tell me how it's good for the game when you can play 5 or more DF potions and still lose to Quest Rogue.  

Playing five or more Dragonfire Potions in one game sounds like it was an epic and exciting match. Do you have replays? Because you can only stick 2 in your deck, that means that you managed to discover three more and play them while surviving to at least turn ten or eleven  (one turn per Dragonfire Potion starting from turn six). That your opponent avoided over-committing into that many board clears shows they had good restraint and match up awareness. This does illustrate the issue higher cost board clears have in that they often give initiative to their opponents if you can't develop your board on the same turn. 

I don't know how you think it would falsely encourage the wrong kind of cards to be included.  

If Blizzard spent the time to make the change, wouldn't people think that they did it to make Silence and Transform 'viable' against Crystal Rogue? If they aren't viable against Crystal Rogue, and I would argue that they aren't either way, why would Blizzard bother to do it?

If a card says "transform a minion into a 1/1 sheep" it ought to turn a minion into a 1/1 sheep, not a 5/5 sheep. 

But why does it NEED to work on 5/5's? I am still not convinced it should be changed because the ROI or Return Of Investment for making that change is very low, as I've explained before.

Either it needs to work on 5/5s, or the 5/5s stats need to be displayed differently.  They currently are displayed as if they were a buffed minion, and buffed minions can be silenced (and are affected by transform effects). 

Playing five or more Dragonfire Potions in one game sounds like it was an epic and exciting match. Do you have replays?

No it wasn't my own game. And apparently the guy was on mobile.  But just with the normal Priest package, it is completely reasonable to have access for 4 DF Potions through Shadow Visions.  I mean.....it's possible the guy was wreckless with his clears, and possible that the Rogue was being conservative.   

If Blizzard spent the time to make the change, wouldn't people think that they did it to make Silence and Transform 'viable' against Crystal Rogue? If they aren't viable against Crystal Rogue, and I would argue that they aren't either way, why would Blizzard bother to do it?

No they'd probably think they're changing it so it's consistent with literally every other card in the game. Silence/transform effects are viable against other decks, I'm not sure what you're getting at. 

Transformation is not a stat manipulation effect though, and like I've said before I'm okay with Transformation not being universally good. It makes sense to me that they are 5/5's because the Crystal Core is manipulating the vanilla stats of all of it's owners minions so that they are 5/5 instead of what is originally printed on them.

If "transform into a 1/1" is not stat manipulation, I don't know what is.  

Quote from WraithM >>

Quote from Nicholasjh >>

There are now cheap control decks which are pretty amazing and fun, 

 

 I would be interested in hearing about those. Control seemed unapproachable to me, as did miracle rogue, because the most popular lists were always filled with legendary minions. Crystal Rogue lists on the other hand was much cheaper and I got both the quest and patches from packs.

I agree that there could be some improvements in clarity there, for sure. If Transform effects make 5/5's, they should dynamically update while in your hand from saying 1/1 or 0/1 to saying 5/5 so that you know ahead of time what will now happen rather than having to learn from past experience. Maybe even a red aura border. This should also include cards like Cornered Sentry which summon minions for your opponent.

When I say that transform isn't viable against Crystal Rogue, I mean that they are most useful at sniping four-of bounce targets. Denying the reuse of battlecry effects is important, but after they flood the board transforming one minion isn't cost effective. Silencing one minion at that point would also not be cost effective against a wide board.

Stat manipulation changes the stats of a minion without replacing it. Transform replaces the original minion with a new one without the old one counting as having died. Transform is most often into a non-collectible minion and not mentioning the stats would be obtuse and annoying as you wouldn't know what was going to happen. Cards that summon non-collectible minions such as Bilefin Tidehunter which summons Ooze or Cornered Sentry which summons Raptors for your opponent also mention the stats but they are not stat manipulation effects either. This is a clarity issue for several cards however, so I agree with you on that point. Though Blizzard intended the Crystal Core to work how it does now, they dropped the ball when it came to clarity on the new interactions with this card.

Make it defensive.  "While on your side of the board, your minions are 5/5."

I wished people would avoid the red herrings. It's not about whether the deck is OP or not - Blizzard have a stated intention to make HS be a game of minion to minion interaction. This quest goes completely against that, and for that alone it should be nerfed even if it was a Tier 3 deck.

The best example was the nerf to Worgen Warrior - never more than Tier 3 but totally non interactive -> Charge was nerfed

Miracle Rogue was strong and even had counters* (Devolve, Mass Dispel) but non interactive -> Conceal was removed from Standard (* mostly though it just wasn't very fast)

And ditto Patron Warrior and Freeze Mage (Ice Lance removed from Standard)

Each of these was nerfed despite there being counters and despite the decks often being Tier 2 or 3, and despite the fact that all these decks took until way past t10 to kill you. By contrast Quest Rogue has no counters (except an entire Aggro deck) and aims to kill you by turn 7-8.

Just look at these stats and tell me the quest doesn't need looking at.

https://hsreplay.net/cards/41222/the-caverns-below/#tab=quest-completion

Most of the time, the quest is completed on turn 5 or 6, and when the quest is complete by turn 6, the deck has AT WORST a 61% wr.   

Quote from SchruteBucks >>

Just look at these stats and tell me the quest doesn't need looking at.

http://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/190922-the-rogue-quest-the-caverns-below-is-op-nerf-it?page=39

Most of the time, the quest is completed on turn 5 or 6, and when the quest is complete by turn 6, the deck has AT WORST a 61% wr.   

Oops.  Sorry about that, link updated. 

https://hsreplay.net/cards/41222/the-caverns-below/#tab=quest-completion

edit: based on 4.3 million replays contributed in the last 30 days.  

Quote from SchruteBucks >>

Just look at these stats and tell me the quest doesn't need looking at.

https://hsreplay.net/cards/41222/the-caverns-below/#tab=quest-completion

Most of the time, the quest is completed on turn 5 or 6, and when the quest is complete by turn 6, the deck has AT WORST a 61% wr.   

"almost certainly" 

yeah if you're gonna make claims....you're gonna need to back up this "almost certainly" first.  If QR is "almost certainly" being piloted by better players in this sample, then so too the decks played against it are being played by better players, and thus this "well they're better players so of course they're going to win more....your average player isn't going to win that much with it" line of thinking falls short.  Additionally, as has already been pointed out, this isn't about why you should nerf a tier 2 or 3 deck, or why not.  Tier has little to do with it.  

Furthermore, this completely ignores the main issue with Quest Rogue (that it is entirely uninteractive and has no card you can use to tech against it).  I was just pointing out another set of info I found compelling. 

What is the completion rate? I don't see it on there. How many games is the quest played and completed. We all know by now the deck either completes the quest and wind the majority of the time or doesn't and loses, with the exception of the games that complete and die that turn, but how many games get it completed

Quote from randjob >>

What is the completion rate? I don't see it on there. How many games is the quest played and completed. We all know by now the deck either completes the quest and wind the majority of the time or doesn't and loses, with the exception of the games that complete and die that turn, but how many games get it completed

Quote from SchruteBucks >>

Quote from randjob >>

What is the completion rate? I don't see it on there. How many games is the quest played and completed. We all know by now the deck either completes the quest and wind the majority of the time or doesn't and loses, with the exception of the games that complete and die that turn, but how many games get it completed

 Have you ever seen quest rogue NOT play the quest turn 1?  Can we all agree that the quest is played on turn 1 often enough to be essentially 100% played?   

Ok.

From there, just add up the percentages.  For example, it was completed turn 7 or sooner in 57.3% of games.