and although gadgetzan is very powerful in rogue and sometimes druid it doesn't really limit design space. you could argue that it prevents rogue from receiving good spells. but even after cards like shadow strike and counterfeit coin were introduced rogue never reached a feeling of "oh wow this is broken and not fun"
also if you were to rotate out gadgetzan at the same time as conceal, and tomb pillager is also going... what is rogue? like really what does rogue even do. a burgle deck? thats a meme at best
An entire Class doesn't need to be broken for a card to be OP. Auctioneer is 10x of the problem of something like Operative. Operative is OP but a gigantic difference exists between a Minion providing +1 Card vs +4-10 Cards. It is hard to imagine an argument that any card in the game should be able to regularly draw 4-10 cards in a given turn without any type of board setup or any real counterplay by the opponent. Ancient of Lore was a 7 Mana 5/5 that Drew 2 cards and was nerfed for being OP but somehow a 6 Mana 4/4 that draws 4-10 cards isn't nerfed???
I think your argument about the viability of Rogue without Auctioneer further proves how stupidly OP it is. If any 1 Card is so incredible that people basically ask what use is the class without that 1 card, then that is beyond proof how ridiculous it is. Rogue could even keep Conceal and Pillager and be plenty fair if Auctioneer left since suddenly the ability to make insane plays would be greatly reduced. Heck, with Auctioneer gone maybe the Devs would actually be forced to make a mechanic and cards for Rogue that work rather than simply making more cards that work with the Auctioneer Abuse of drawing almost all your deck in 1 or 2 turns.
lets put it like this. the cards were not rotated out based on power level to be honest, even if it looks that way. they were rotated out to open up design space. with each new expansion they have to come up with new, interesting, powerful cards that arent too broken or too garbage, atleast not every slot.
and to achieve that how will they make a better 6 drop than sylvanus? thaurassian? mysterious challenger? the card makes their job very hard to do and its too versatile.
and for rag, imagine making a better 8 drop than ragnaros. there really isnt too many options that arent completely busted. also its existence prevents a control styled mage from really shining, sure renomage has been good but when a rag is dropped late game they just lose to it half the time.
conceal, with this card it limits the power level of any card they give rogue because they can just hide it, essentially giving it charge, or your whole board charge since there are very little ways to interact with a stealthed board for many classes.
power overwhelming 1 mana deal 4 damage. this basically prevents them from making any charge or windfury card with decent stats for warlock or even neutral because they can exploit it with power overwhelming OTK combos.
and although gadgetzan is very powerful in rogue and sometimes druid it doesn't really limit design space. you could argue that it prevents rogue from receiving good spells. but even after cards like shadow strike and counterfeit coin were introduced rogue never reached a feeling of "oh wow this is broken and not fun"
also if you were to rotate out gadgetzan at the same time as conceal, and tomb pillager is also going... what is rogue? like really what does rogue even do. a burgle deck? thats a meme at best
You're right about Rag. As for PO, with the exception of Doomguard's massive downside, charge has never really been a part of Warlock's class identity. Windfury certainly hasn't either. You can't really single out PO as a design-space limiter when there are myriad other single-turn and permanent buffs. They're just killing PO to force "diversity" into the Warlock playstyle. Control-lock variants will no longer be able to use the burst combo and zoo will be buried without some replacement burst. I'll be curious to see what they offer Warlock in the next expansion, as it could really be in as a bad a spot as current Pally / Hunter and pre-MSoG Priest without very powerful new cards.
Onto the real thread topic - Auctioneer. The two cards you cited are not particularly good or powerful in a vacuum. Shadowstrike is Backstab +3 mana for +3 damage. It is situationally useful but honestly not that powerful. Counterfeit Coin is really only good because of Auctioneer. Without it, it would be a worse Innervate. So, you really can't say that Rogue has been getting good spells. It is also still almost completely devoid of useful draw from class cards.
I have two big issues with Auctioneer:
1) The classes it is regularly used by, Rogue and Druid, are able to respectively make tempo and curve-accelerating plays that sacrifice card resources as part of their class identity. It's important that the upside be powerful but the downside be real. Auctioneer breaks that relationship. This is the same reason why Tunnel Trogg is such a bad card - it takes what is supposed to be the downside of cards that are overpowered for their mana costs and makes it a benefit.
Honestly, on this point, Rogue is the lesser offender. If you're playing against Miracle, you at least know that the deck is dead if you manage to kill EVC and the QAs. The much bigger issue is Jade Druid, where you can now combine near-infinite draw power with no downside. Now, maybe this points more to the need to nerf Jade Idol (sorely-needed), which may very well be the most toxic card in the history of HS (I have it edging-out pre-nerf Yogg and pre-nerf Undertaker).
2) The Gadgetzan effect, combined with 0-mana spells that are also mana accelerators, is completely broken. With cards like Tomb Pillager, Counterfeit Coin, Prep, and Innervate, we now have cards that not only cycle on their own with Auctioneer, but also open the possibility to make further cycling plays. Yes, this can fizzle if you innervate into a big minion with no other spells in hand, but I think we all know that the decks that use/abuse auctioneer are not constructed in a way that makes this a realistic problem. Note that this was also an enabler in Yogg Druid, which like Jade Druid, was bad for the game and built on a card that was horribly designed.
Maybe auctioneer will not feel like such an issue once Tomb Pillager, Azure Drake and Conceal are gone; but the issues with Druid will linger for more than a year. As long as there are powerful cheap spells, mana accelerators and mana discounting mechanisms in the game, this card is going to be a problem.
and although gadgetzan is very powerful in rogue and sometimes druid it doesn't really limit design space. you could argue that it prevents rogue from receiving good spells. but even after cards like shadow strike and counterfeit coin were introduced rogue never reached a feeling of "oh wow this is broken and not fun"
also if you were to rotate out gadgetzan at the same time as conceal, and tomb pillager is also going... what is rogue? like really what does rogue even do. a burgle deck? thats a meme at best
An entire Class doesn't need to be broken for a card to be OP. Auctioneer is 10x of the problem of something like Operative. Operative is OP but a gigantic difference exists between a Minion providing +1 Card vs +4-10 Cards. It is hard to imagine an argument that any card in the game should be able to regularly draw 4-10 cards in a given turn without any type of board setup or any real counterplay by the opponent. Ancient of Lore was a 7 Mana 5/5 that Drew 2 cards and was nerfed for being OP but somehow a 6 Mana 4/4 that draws 4-10 cards isn't nerfed???
I think your argument about the viability of Rogue without Auctioneer further proves how stupidly OP it is. If any 1 Card is so incredible that people basically ask what use is the class without that 1 card, then that is beyond proof how ridiculous it is. Rogue could even keep Conceal and Pillager and be plenty fair if Auctioneer left since suddenly the ability to make insane plays would be greatly reduced. Heck, with Auctioneer gone maybe the Devs would actually be forced to make a mechanic and cards for Rogue that work rather than simply making more cards that work with the Auctioneer Abuse of drawing almost all your deck in 1 or 2 turns.
I don't think you understand how strong conceal is. my "water" rogue runs double conceal and gang up with leeroy and edwin. If i finja on 4 or 5, you will be dead on 6 or 7 because i can conceal my entire board for 1 mana. auctioneer will be a lot weaker in rogue with pillager, drake and conceal rotating. Miracle rogue will probably be pretty much dead without those tools, but conceal enables a really powerful aggro/midrange deck that the opponent cant even interact without outside AoE while i use my really efficient removal to deal with your board.
Combined with Jade Idol, the worst fucking card in the history of this game, Team 5's failure to rotate Auctioneer is maybe the biggest indictment yet of their ability to balance the game.
Classes like Rogue and Druid that have, as part of their class identities, the ability to accelerate mana within a turn or within the game overall, should be balanced by making draw more costly and by the risk of fatigue. Auctioneer completely obviates any challenge either class faces in card draw, as been seen by anyone who has ever played a game against Miracle Rogue or Jade Druid. Add to that Jade Idol, and Druid has nearly unlimited card draw with no risk of fatigue.
If we are going to have 0-cost spells that also accelerate / buff other plays and classes that literally cannot fatigue, this card has no place in the game. People who bitch about aggro for the next 15 months have Jade Idol and Gadgetzan Auctioneer to blame almost exclusively.
The problem with removing gadgetzan, is that gadgetzan provides the only "not curvestone" deck, that doesn't need 20 minutes to win. Miracle rogue is one of the only decks left in the game that actually require some skill to play, and has very little RNG.
The problem with removing gadgetzan, is that gadgetzan provides the only "not curvestone" deck, that doesn't need 20 minutes to win. Miracle rogue is one of the only decks left in the game that actually require some skill to play, and has very little RNG.
Miracle Rogue is dead next month anyway. No Conceal, no Drake, no Tomb Pillager = bye, bye miracle. At least rotating Auctioneer would've killed Jade Druid along with it. Instead, we will play for another year with a deck that can spam ever-growing minions without ever running out of cards in hand or risking fatigue.
Conceal is arguably the single most unfair card in the entire game. The fact that you can create a 20/20 Edwin VanCleef, stealth it, hit face with it next turn, then stealth it again for a two-turn-kill that is virtually impossible to prevent has been a great source of frustration for me and, I imagine, many others. Gadgetzan Auctioneer is a brilliantly designed card that you can build a deck around, so it's actually great for the game. Conceal, however, is not.
by that logic conceal is not the issue, but the cheap cards that allow a 20/20 Vancleef and arguably lack of anti stealth tech cards
Conceal is arguably the single most unfair card in the entire game. The fact that you can create a 20/20 Edwin VanCleef, stealth it, hit face with it next turn, then stealth it again for a two-turn-kill that is virtually impossible to prevent has been a great source of frustration for me and, I imagine, many others. Gadgetzan Auctioneer is a brilliantly designed card that you can build a deck around, so it's actually great for the game. Conceal, however, is not.
by that logic conceal is not the issue, but the cheap cards that allow a 20/20 Vancleef and arguably lack of anti stealth tech cards
Uh, no. Conceal is the issue because without it you can just kill the 20/20.
I feel like the biggest issue with Auctioneer is using it with Jade Idol. Wouldn't it be easier to just make Auctioneer a Rogue class card? That way, we can keep Miracle Rogue in a good place and still get rid of the ridiculousness of Jade Druid's late game.
I don't like games where I still have 19 cards in deck while my enemy have 3. Feels so unfair. Ok, now you have played 10 turns in 1, now let me do the same.
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The problem with removing gadgetzan, is that gadgetzan provides the only "not curvestone" deck, that doesn't need 20 minutes to win. Miracle rogue is one of the only decks left in the game that actually require some skill to play, and has very little RNG.
I feel like the biggest issue with Auctioneer is using it with Jade Idol. Wouldn't it be easier to just make Auctioneer a Rogue class card? That way, we can keep Miracle Rogue in a good place and still get rid of the ridiculousness of Jade Druid's late game.
Gadgetzan Auctioneer was broken.
Not Conceal.
Not Azure Drake.
What is wrong with Blizzard..?
Remove two cards that aren't overpowered.
Keep the one overpowered card.
If Rogue breaks without ONE neutral card, perhaps Rogue should have better class cards added?
I don't like games where I still have 19 cards in deck while my enemy have 3. Feels so unfair. Ok, now you have played 10 turns in 1, now let me do the same.