So these 2 cards have a similar effect. They deal 1 damage to every minion.
Now here's what concerns me. Ravaging Ghoul's stats are 1 off premium. And a 0 Mana minion has 2 stats. So doesn't it make sense that If an ability is not even worth an extra mana, then the ability itself should cost (0)?
If this is the case, whirlwind should cost (0).
Or perhaps, you think that whirlwind is just too strong and needs to cost (1). Then do you think Ravaging Ghoul is overpowered?
Perhaps I'm missing something? As far as I can see, these cards can't both be balanced. And don't even get me started on Dread Infernal.
Well I agree ravaging ghoul tends to be better but what makes whirl wind balanced is it can be combined with grommash while ghoul cannot or for another example whirl wind can be combined more effectively and earlier than ghoul.
Whirlwind's cheap costs allows you to combo it more easily. You can use it to activate grom, you can combo it with battle rage at a lower mana cost, You can combo it with patron at a lower cost, things like that. I think that ghoul is a stronger card in general, but "balanced" is more of a range to me than an exact value, and I think they both fall within that range.
An effect on a minion has a different value than the same effect from a spell. You're conflating the two, so your entire methodology for determining appropriate mana cost is off.
According the Blizzard 0 cost cards are bad, which is why hunter's mark was "nerfed." So we can assume Whirlwind is slightly under powered, but honestly given the combo potential of whirlwind in warrior I don't think it is.
This disclaimer Will cleanse any sense of innuendo or sarcasm From the comments that might actually make you think And will also insult your intelligence at the same time. So, if it sounds sarcastic, don't take it seriously. If it sounds dangerous, Do not try this at home or at all. And if it offends you, just don't read it.
its ability to trade up is really over powered because it can contest a 3/4 and 4/4s and 5/4s
Lots of 3 mana minions can contest those, and many of them are so weak that they are not worth playing.
yes but those 3mana minions dont have dozens of different interactions along the with the fact they can contest those mobs. all the 4/3s in the 3 mana pool are generally bad because so many 2 drops kill them, even if they do trade into 4 drops and some 5 drops. but chances are your opponent will throw down 2 3/2s on turn 4 to contest your 4/3 if they didnt already kill it. I'm mostly speaking from an arena stand point. but ghoul is also really too strong in constructive just because it probably should only affect your minions due to all of its really good uses like activating acolyte/armorsmith/2/6tauntguy/patron/frothing beserker. adding the fact he can nuke a x/1 board is kinda derp. i don't personally think he needs these nerfs but if i were to see him changed it would be to make a 2/3 or to make it so the whirlwind only hits your mobs. it would actually value whirlwind a lot better if he only affected your minions
Theoretically, 1 mana is worth 2 stats and every minion also has 1 extra stat. Therefor Ravaging Ghoul should be a 3/2 orWhirlwind should cost 0,5 mana, rounded to either 0 or 1. So 0 and 1 mana are as close to the real value, so it doesn't matter. Usually the manacost is rounded up so 1 is correct.
A drawback is -0,5 times worth the same ability as a positive effect. For example, Arcane Explosion is worth 2 mana, and so a minion that said "deal 1 damage to all friendly minions" would have 2 extra stats. Arcane Explosion = 2 mana, Arcane Explosion on your own board = -1 mana.Whirlwind is basically these two combined, = 2-1 = 1 mana.
However, in practice you have to note that Whirlwind is a tool used to do something specific and it's not a card that's good on its own. Having a bigger manacost on this kind of effect is a very bad thing, and a Whirlwind-effect in a 3 mana card is much weaker than Whirlwind on its own.
It should also be noted that 1 mana difference isn't always a 1 mana difference. The difference between 0 and 1 mana is huge, but it would hardly make a difference if Mountain Giant costed 11 mana (same thing applies even more to minions' stats). 0 mana cards are also much more flexible.
An effect on a minion has a different value than the same effect from a spell. You're conflating the two, so your entire methodology for determining appropriate mana cost is off.
They are worth the same amount of mana (except maybe in Mage or Rogue).
Theoretically, 1 mana is worth 2 stats and every minion also has 1 extra stat. Therefor Ravaging Ghoul should be a 3/2 orWhirlwind should cost 0,5 mana, rounded to either 0 or 1. So 0 and 1 mana are as close to the real value, so it doesn't matter. Usually the manacost is rounded up so 1 is correct.
A drawback is -0,5 times worth the same ability as a positive effect. For example, Arcane Explosion is worth 2 mana, and so a minion that said "deal 1 damage to all friendly minions" would have 2 extra stats. Arcane Explosion = 2 mana, Arcane Explosion on your own board = -1 mana.Whirlwind is basically these two combined, = 2-1 = 1 mana.
However, in practice you have to note that Whirlwind is a tool used to do something specific and it's not a card that's good on its own. Having a bigger manacost on this kind of effect is a very bad thing, and a Whirlwind-effect in a 3 mana card is much weaker than Whirlwind on its own.
TL;DR: Both are balanced.
Tl:dr, ghoul is slightly over stated, not broken, but over stated which is what i was basically thinking
basically, if it was 3/2 or 2/3 it would go from very good to good which would be a better place for it, however i think its fine where it is, its just noticeably stronger than its needs to be.
Any card with slightly underpowered stats and battlecry that similar to 1-mana cost spell is usually good. For example Aldor Peacekeeper
well best stats for 3 mana minions are vanilla 3/4s (spider tank)
to add a 1 mana spell to that and only -.5 stats pretty much makes it .5 better than a spider tank essentially making it as strong as a 4/4 or a 3/5 on turn 3. but for the fact you get a spell affect too generally makes its much better.
like id value spider tank at 7 stat while id value ghoul at about 9 when it should be 8.
3/3 in stat = 6 and whirlwind when used as more than just a drop on an empty board = about 1.5 in cost since i think whirlwind is actually worth a bit more than 1 which is its cost but not 2 because of arcane explosion.
On aldor though, humility 100% feels like a 1 cost spot. so an aldor feels like 8 resources to a spider tanks 7
Edit: Heres an idea, What if ravaging ghoul hurt itself upon being played, it would synergize with armor smith and frothing, but it would put it at 3/2 which would be a lot healthier stat distribution?
Any card with slightly underpowered stats and battlecry that similar to 1-mana cost spell is usually good. For example Aldor Peacekeeper
well best stats for 3 mana minions are vanilla 3/4s (spider tank)
to add a 1 mana spell to that and only -.5 stats pretty much makes it .5 better than a spider tank essentially making it as strong as a 4/4 or a 3/5 on turn 3. but for the fact you get a spell affect too generally makes its much better.
like id value spider tank at 7 stat while id value ghoul at about 9 when it should be 8.
3/3 in stat = 6 and whirlwind when used as more than just a drop on an empty board = about 1.5 in cost since i think whirlwind is actually worth a bit more than 1 which is its cost but not 2 because of arcane explosion.
On aldor though, humility 100% feels like a 1 cost spot. so an aldor feels like 8 resources to a spider tanks 7
Edit: Heres an idea, What if ravaging ghoul hurt itself upon being played, it would synergize with armor smith and frothing, but it would put it at 3/2 which would be a lot healthier stat distribution?
Humility is (at least almost) unplayable, I'd evaluate it as worth 1 stat. About the value of Whirlwind, Arcane Explosion is unplayable costing 2 mana = 4 stats. I'd evaluate that worth 3 stats and Whirlwind worth 2 stats. Twilight Flamecaller confirms this, being about equal to vanilla minion in Arena.
However, in practice you have to note that Whirlwind is a tool used to do something specific and it's not a card that's good on its own. Having a bigger manacost on this kind of effect is a very bad thing, and a Whirlwind-effect in a 3 mana card is much weaker than Whirlwind on its own.
Therefor, Whirlwind is worth 1 stat when combined with a 3 mana minion.
So these 2 cards have a similar effect. They deal 1 damage to every minion.
Now here's what concerns me. Ravaging Ghoul's stats are 1 off premium. And a 0 Mana minion has 2 stats. So doesn't it make sense that If an ability is not even worth an extra mana, then the ability itself should cost (0)?
If this is the case, whirlwind should cost (0).
Or perhaps, you think that whirlwind is just too strong and needs to cost (1). Then do you think Ravaging Ghoul is overpowered?
Perhaps I'm missing something? As far as I can see, these cards can't both be balanced. And don't even get me started on Dread Infernal.
I like to make cards and discuss game balance.
I enjoy when "No similar decks were found."
My latest deck: http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/1366184-scholomance-charge-rez-priest-wild
Well I agree ravaging ghoul tends to be better but what makes whirl wind balanced is it can be combined with grommash while ghoul cannot or for another example whirl wind can be combined more effectively and earlier than ghoul.
What Happens When Mech's Meet an Old God...
Whirlwind's cheap costs allows you to combo it more easily. You can use it to activate grom, you can combo it with battle rage at a lower mana cost, You can combo it with patron at a lower cost, things like that. I think that ghoul is a stronger card in general, but "balanced" is more of a range to me than an exact value, and I think they both fall within that range.
An effect on a minion has a different value than the same effect from a spell. You're conflating the two, so your entire methodology for determining appropriate mana cost is off.
According the Blizzard 0 cost cards are bad, which is why hunter's mark was "nerfed." So we can assume Whirlwind is slightly under powered, but honestly given the combo potential of whirlwind in warrior I don't think it is.
Ghoul should cost 3.5. But since you can't have fractional mana the balance gods determined a really good card is preferable to a not so good card.
Anger is the punishment we give ourselves for someone else's mistake.
ravaging ghoul should be a 2/3 with its effect. it would trade into all other 2/3s safely and kill all 3/3s with with effects and strong 4/3s
its ability to trade up is really over powered because it can contest a 3/4 and 4/4s and 5/4s
it can also activate/kill lots of mobs
overall being 2/3 instead is the best way it could be changed.
Bigger cards are allowed more extras. Deathwing dragon lord is a good example of this.
OP, please, just take a look at cards like Dark Cultist, Unearthed Raptor, Fierce Monkey and Bloodsail Cultist before starting a thread like this.
It's op, but in arena, not constructed.
This disclaimer
Will cleanse any sense of innuendo or sarcasm
From the comments that might actually make you think
And will also insult your intelligence at the same time.
So, if it sounds sarcastic, don't take it seriously.
If it sounds dangerous,
Do not try this at home or at all.
And if it offends you, just don't read it.
This expansion had quite a number of cards where the Battlecry effect is similar to a spell in-game.
I would say that it is alright - as people have said, the 1-mana Whirlwind makes it easier to combo with other cards that were released in the set.
Theoretically, 1 mana is worth 2 stats and every minion also has 1 extra stat. Therefor Ravaging Ghoul should be a 3/2 or Whirlwind should cost 0,5 mana, rounded to either 0 or 1. So 0 and 1 mana are as close to the real value, so it doesn't matter. Usually the manacost is rounded up so 1 is correct.
A drawback is -0,5 times worth the same ability as a positive effect. For example, Arcane Explosion is worth 2 mana, and so a minion that said "deal 1 damage to all friendly minions" would have 2 extra stats. Arcane Explosion = 2 mana, Arcane Explosion on your own board = -1 mana.Whirlwind is basically these two combined, = 2-1 = 1 mana.
However, in practice you have to note that Whirlwind is a tool used to do something specific and it's not a card that's good on its own. Having a bigger manacost on this kind of effect is a very bad thing, and a Whirlwind-effect in a 3 mana card is much weaker than Whirlwind on its own.
It should also be noted that 1 mana difference isn't always a 1 mana difference. The difference between 0 and 1 mana is huge, but it would hardly make a difference if Mountain Giant costed 11 mana (same thing applies even more to minions' stats). 0 mana cards are also much more flexible.
TL;DR: Both are balanced.
Any card with slightly underpowered stats and battlecry that similar to 1-mana cost spell is usually good. For example Aldor Peacekeeper