to 3: Justica is bad example. Was she really such a problem? You have to draw her first, then play her (huge tempo loss, 6/3 dies ez). Thats why Control mirrors back in the days was: who draws Justicar and Golden Monkey first.
I think that summoning 2 silver hand recruit is much more powerful than healing any character for 3.
If you are a dev and your planning to print such designs, you must give to all the classes the tools to interact with them. After 2 expansions from the release of WW, I still can't see a way to play both even/odd priest or druid.
As I said, 2 recruits is only a problem if there are too many good ways to buff them. Currently there are too many snowballing cards for Odd Paladin, which will all rotate in April.
Also, ODd Druid and Odd Priest are both playable decks...they'Re just not very good right now, but that can change easily. Just look at how Odd Mage turned from shit to gold with just 3 new cards.
Is that a joke? I never saw any player bringing odd mage in a tournament. Playable doesnt mean anything in hs.
You win or you loose. Look at the win rates of odd rogue/pala and compare them with odd priest/druid. Thats the state of things...
are you tournament player? do you literally only play to climb the ladder as fast as possible? Just because a deck isn't tier 1 doesn't mean it's unplayable. If you want to play only the best decks and nothing else that's on you.
to 3: Justica is bad example. Was she really such a problem? You have to draw her first, then play her (huge tempo loss, 6/3 dies ez). Thats why Control mirrors back in the days was: who draws Justicar and Golden Monkey first.
yeah, obviously it was less consistent, but the point was that the upgraded hero power is what made Ctrl Warrior win games back in the day and it's the same thing now. Tank Up is just way too strong regardless of when you get it.
I think the issue with Genn and Baku is a mix of many different factors, which leads to people beeing really annoyed/frustrated or simply bored of it. The decks were really fun at start of WW, not gonna lie. Experimenting or just seeing ppl experiment with those cards was a pleasure, since it was new and fun. The problem is, that as soon as those decks were refined, they have hardly changed at all and whenever you play vs them, you know exactly how the match is going to be played.
Also it is frustrating to see archetypes introduced, that all fall back, just because they work better in the odd/even environment or are bad because they would otherwise be too good in the odd/even environment.
I am not sure, this may also be a problem of the weaker year of the raven sets, maybe the rotation will fix many things, we will see.
I personally would have enjoyed those 2 cards alot more if they were introduced in the last set. That way they would have only 4 months of full power, which would also would have taken a lot of time to figure out and then people would have needed to rethink again in the next year.
i think there are many more aspects but trying to not write too much have a nice weekend fellas!
I just get tired of all the talk about being, "oh this fits in even' and 'oh you won't have that in odd'. I liked the game better when you just picked out cards and made a deck. Then they had to go and print these garbage cards, and for what? It's not like the meta has more decks than before. It just makes design and balance more difficult than it already was, and it's not like Team 5 was seeing much success with that before. Just get rid of the even/odd bullshit and give us our game back. Send it to wild, I don't care, I will just not play wild anymore and use the dust to ride out what little is left of this fading game.
I can understand that, but I think that's bias on your side. The meta does, in fact, have way more decks than before (or at least matchups are more evenly spread).
There are still regular decks around. If a deck makes better use of all cards than they do with an uupgraded Hero power they won't use it, simple as that. Where's Even Hunter? Where's Odd Priest?
All Baku/Genn do is outshine regular decks that attempt to do the same thing (Odd Paladin is superior to a regular aggro paladin for example) but that would happen even if they didn't exist. People are still going to be playing the best decks available and in the best decklist will always make it to the top.
Your argument seems to be that you don't like to play Even/Odd. Then don't, but don't demand that Blizzard makes it so the only decks that are palyable are the ones you want to play.
This took some effort to write. Which leads me to think u got ur priorities all mixed up
this took me about 1 1/2 hours, I have nothing to do at the moment and I like writing. My priorities are fine, thanks for asking.
Yeah i like writing too thats why i write a couple of pages each day of a sci fy novel i wish one day to publish. Its only a hobbie cause i dont have any time for serious stuff due to work issues. I sure as hell wouldn't dedicate 90 minutes of my precious Saturday into defending a serious flaw in the game which nearly all streamers pro players and community say they are busted. Even the nerfs have been to cards that are overpowered due to their powecreep in those decks.
I said that as kinda of a joke but ur blatant arrogant and inflexible attitude towards me and many ppl that posted here raises a huge red flag. One that makes me not pursue any kind of further discussion regarding u or ur defense on this huge design flaw that are Baku and Genn
You make very good points, and everything you touch on, I agree with. However, I feel the negative part of Baku and Genn is the consistency. Maybe the hero powers aren’t “OP”, but it’s happening every time they play that deck. Reno decks have a huge disadvantage to build around, and sometimes they didn’t even get their build around cards. With these two cards, every game plays out about the same. You get the benefit no matter what. Part of a card game is drawing the cards, and Genn and Baku effectively say “Add a 0 mana card to your starting hand that upgrades/discounts your hero power”
I think the issue with Genn and Baku is a mix of many different factors, which leads to people beeing really annoyed/frustrated or simply bored of it. The decks were really fun at start of WW, not gonna lie. Experimenting or just seeing ppl experiment with those cards was a pleasure, since it was new and fun. The problem is, that as soon as those decks were refined, they have hardly changed at all and whenever you play vs them, you know exactly how the match is going to be played.
Also it is frustrating to see archetypes introduced, that all fall back, just because they work better in the odd/even environment or are bad because they would otherwise be too good in the odd/even environment.
I am not sure, this may also be a problem of the weaker year of the raven sets, maybe the rotation will fix many things, we will see.
I personally would have enjoyed those 2 cards alot more if they were introduced in the last set. That way they would have only 4 months of full power, which would also would have taken a lot of time to figure out and then people would have needed to rethink again in the next year.
i think there are many more aspects but trying to not write too much have a nice weekend fellas!
well, the rotation does affect these decks heavily (good luck playing Even paladin without 50% of its current power budget) .
I also think that the whole odd/even eclispsing regular decks is just an illusion. Good decks always outshine worse decks. The same could be said about Quest Rogue outshining Miracle Rogue. When both decks have the same goal it comes down to who does it better.
If Odd Paladin is better at beatdown than regular aggro Paladin than that's just how it is. I don't see anyone complaining that Spellhunter outshines Odd Hunter even thought that's the exact same case.
Have faith in the rotation, I can almost guarantee that the even/Odd playstyles will change massively (at least in Paladin, Rogue and possibly Warlock)
I think that summoning 2 silver hand recruit is much more powerful than healing any character for 3.
If you are a dev and your planning to print such designs, you must give to all the classes the tools to interact with them. After 2 expansions from the release of WW, I still can't see a way to play both even/odd priest or druid.
As I said, 2 recruits is only a problem if there are too many good ways to buff them. Currently there are too many snowballing cards for Odd Paladin, which will all rotate in April.
Also, ODd Druid and Odd Priest are both playable decks...they'Re just not very good right now, but that can change easily. Just look at how Odd Mage turned from shit to gold with just 3 new cards.
Is that a joke? I never saw any player bringing odd mage in a tournament. Playable doesnt mean anything in hs.
You win or you loose. Look at the win rates of odd rogue/pala and compare them with odd priest/druid. Thats the state of things...
are you tournament player? do you literally only play to climb the ladder as fast as possible? Just because a deck isn't tier 1 doesn't mean it's unplayable. If you want to play only the best decks and nothing else that's on you.
Oh god. Im not such an ugly person...
I dont even netdeck. And I'm so tired of facing all these competitive people that you are talking about. But you know, only the strongest will survive.. so only the best decks will see play in this MF game.
This took some effort to write. Which leads me to think u got ur priorities all mixed up
this took me about 1 1/2 hours, I have nothing to do at the moment and I like writing. My priorities are fine, thanks for asking.
Yeah i like writing too thats why i write a couple of pages each day of a sci fy novel i wish one day to publish. Its only a hobbie cause i dont have any time for serious stuff due to work issues. I sure as hell wouldn't dedicate 90 minutes of my precious Saturday into defending a serious flaw in the game which nearly all streamers pro players and community say they are busted. Even the nerfs have been to cards that are overpowered due to their powecreep in those decks.
I said that as kinda of a joke but ur blatant arrogant and inflexible attitude towards me and many ppl that posted here raises a huge red flag. One that makes me not pursue any kind of further discussion regarding u or ur defense on this huge design flaw that are Baku and Genn
your only contribution was a lame joke questioning my priorities. Stupid questions demand stupid answers. If you can't handle banter then get off the internet.
Also, nice way of saying "I can't think of a proper rebuttal right now, but I don#t like you so I don't have to bother"
You've converted me. I was lost in the sea as well. I was even in favor of the possibility that Genn and Baku are put in the Hall of Fame as special inclusions at the upcoming Year of the ____ expansion.
I 100% agree - Genn/Baku have highlighted an issue, but are not an issue themselves.
Have faith in the rotation, I can almost guarantee that the even/Odd playstyles will change massively (at least in Paladin, Rogue and possibly Warlock)
I have :) I personally don't play those decks much. Tried most of them, but I only had fun with even paladin occasionally. I as a paladin lover hope that there will be more decks besides otk or "buff your dudes and go".
As ppl mentioned, I don't like every game beeing almost the same. I love when crazy stuff happens. Rng to a certain degree and when you don't have only one way to win the game.
You make very good points, and everything you touch on, I agree with. However, I feel the negative part of Baku and Genn is the consistency. Maybe the hero powers aren’t “OP”, but it’s happening every time they play that deck. Reno decks have a huge disadvantage to build around, and sometimes they didn’t even get their build around cards. With these two cards, every game plays out about the same. You get the benefit no matter what. Part of a card game is drawing the cards, and Genn and Baku effectively say “Add a 0 mana card to your starting hand that upgrades/discounts your hero power”
on the flipside, inconsitency feels bad on both sides as well. I remember when people complained about Reno because matchups were pretty much decided by whether you drew Reno in time or not.
Hearthstone is a game with very limited card draw and that'S honestly one of its biggest flaw. So many cards and decks don't work because you don't draw your essentials in time or because amtchups literally depend on opening with specific cards.
If draw RNG is the only thing balancing a deck (like it is right now with hunters, who can win purely on getting Spellstone in their mullligan) then it bad design.
the consistency is the good thing about Baku/genn because it allows you to actually build a deck around the premise. i'd rather have more consistent cards with average power level than a bunch of highrolling bullshit like Barnes that people build decks around purely because of probability percentages.
You can't honestly tell me that a Spell hunter deck running BArnes + Y'shaarj just to get lucky and maybe close the game on turn 4 is better design than a deck with a consistent upgrade that's balanced around card limitations.
I think that summoning 2 silver hand recruit is much more powerful than healing any character for 3.
If you are a dev and your planning to print such designs, you must give to all the classes the tools to interact with them. After 2 expansions from the release of WW, I still can't see a way to play both even/odd priest or druid.
As I said, 2 recruits is only a problem if there are too many good ways to buff them. Currently there are too many snowballing cards for Odd Paladin, which will all rotate in April.
Also, ODd Druid and Odd Priest are both playable decks...they'Re just not very good right now, but that can change easily. Just look at how Odd Mage turned from shit to gold with just 3 new cards.
Is that a joke? I never saw any player bringing odd mage in a tournament. Playable doesnt mean anything in hs.
You win or you loose. Look at the win rates of odd rogue/pala and compare them with odd priest/druid. Thats the state of things...
are you tournament player? do you literally only play to climb the ladder as fast as possible? Just because a deck isn't tier 1 doesn't mean it's unplayable. If you want to play only the best decks and nothing else that's on you.
Oh god. Im not such an ugly person...
I dont even netdeck. And I'm so tired of facing all these competitive people that you are talking about. But you know, only the strongest will survive.. so only the best decks will see play in this MF game.
that is just not true. The best decks will be the most popular, but that's just how things work. That doesn't mean worse decks can't also win. There's a reason we have tier lists. Just because a deck is tier 3 doesn't mean it's unplayable. Many people have climbed ladder with "bad" decks, because they like to play them.
I have beaten different tier 1 decks with Discardlock, Quest Hunter, Pogo Rogue and so on. Sure, my winrates aren't spectacular, but that doesn't mean I can't play the game.
If your idea is that every deck should be equally viable then I'm sorry to say that can't ever work. Even if we kept on nerfing every tier 1 deck, another one will just take its spot. There has to be a deck that'S on top, that's always been the case, ti doesn't matter if that deck is Odd Paladin or Mech Rogue. Some decks will always be better than others, but you don't need to force yourself to play them. Losing is part of the game too you know.
This took some effort to write. Which leads me to think u got ur priorities all mixed up
this took me about 1 1/2 hours, I have nothing to do at the moment and I like writing. My priorities are fine, thanks for asking.
Yeah i like writing too thats why i write a couple of pages each day of a sci fy novel i wish one day to publish. Its only a hobbie cause i dont have any time for serious stuff due to work issues. I sure as hell wouldn't dedicate 90 minutes of my precious Saturday into defending a serious flaw in the game which nearly all streamers pro players and community say they are busted. Even the nerfs have been to cards that are overpowered due to their powecreep in those decks.
I said that as kinda of a joke but ur blatant arrogant and inflexible attitude towards me and many ppl that posted here raises a huge red flag. One that makes me not pursue any kind of further discussion regarding u or ur defense on this huge design flaw that are Baku and Genn
your only contribution was a lame joke questioning my priorities. Stupid questions demand stupid answers. If you can't handle banter then get off the internet.
Also, nice way of saying "I can't think of a proper rebuttal right now, but I don#t like you so I don't have to bother"
You are way easily offended. Try to work on that AND put that effort of defending a digital card game into something productive. Or do u profit anything from defending a game owned by a multimillionaire company? Yeah didnt think so.
Your precious company is crushing the basic and classic sets in order to sell more packs from each new exp or do u disagree with this as well? And Baku and Genn are part of that problem too. Recent nerfs are prime example of it.
I've read your wall, and I'll be the first to admit I do not like Genn/Baku, even if I admire their ability to let underrepresented cards see play (respect to RavenSunHP for making me see that). Also kudos to you for writing that much about the topic and managing to make sense throughout. There's only one part of the text with which I think you didn't quite see the point of the opposing arguments:
4) "they directly and indirectly affect future card design, since every card has to have their cost designed around them"
this is probably the worst argument I ever heard. HOW IS THIS A BAD THING?. For years we have had terrible card design purely based on lack of foresight on the devs' part. Why is it a bad thing to have them actually deliberately exclude certain cards from Odd/Even decks in order to keep them from being overpowered?
I think the issue that argument illustrates is not really every card having to be designed around them, but how difficult that task actually is. The devs are human, and one miss can be enough to push these already volatile decks over the top. Of course, they can just nerf that card and make it cost (1) more (whether or not the card is problematic on its own).
This is still not enough of a problem to butcher anything, especially before the nerfs arrive and impact the meta. There are probably at least 3 sets of nerfs to come this year, though, and time will tell how hard Baku and Genn will dictate them. If they do, it probably means the task above is as hard as it looks or more.
The rest of your text makes sense (unfortunately xD). The rest of your points debunked the opposition quite well.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health. - Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
I already know how the game works, thank you. But we were talking about baku and genn right?!
I'm not complaining about them. I'm complaining about missing the opportunity to play even/odd decks (that make sense) for all the 9 classes.
Thats it.
well that's just unrealistic. Some Upgraded Hero Powers are just more useful than others. They never intended for all 9 classes to have viable even AND odd decks. Some can run both (Paladin, Rogue) some realistically only one (Warlock, Mage) and some just can't really use any of them....yet. We still have 3 more expansions of Genn/Baku and there is no reason why decks like Odd Priest, Druid, Shaman or Even Rogue, Hunter, Mage couldn't get some more support down the line.
to 3: Justica is bad example. Was she really such a problem? You have to draw her first, then play her (huge tempo loss, 6/3 dies ez). Thats why Control mirrors back in the days was: who draws Justicar and Golden Monkey first.
are you tournament player? do you literally only play to climb the ladder as fast as possible? Just because a deck isn't tier 1 doesn't mean it's unplayable. If you want to play only the best decks and nothing else that's on you.
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
yeah, obviously it was less consistent, but the point was that the upgraded hero power is what made Ctrl Warrior win games back in the day and it's the same thing now. Tank Up is just way too strong regardless of when you get it.
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
My reaction when i saw the behemoth of a post!
I think the issue with Genn and Baku is a mix of many different factors, which leads to people beeing really annoyed/frustrated or simply bored of it. The decks were really fun at start of WW, not gonna lie. Experimenting or just seeing ppl experiment with those cards was a pleasure, since it was new and fun. The problem is, that as soon as those decks were refined, they have hardly changed at all and whenever you play vs them, you know exactly how the match is going to be played.
Also it is frustrating to see archetypes introduced, that all fall back, just because they work better in the odd/even environment or are bad because they would otherwise be too good in the odd/even environment.
I am not sure, this may also be a problem of the weaker year of the raven sets, maybe the rotation will fix many things, we will see.
I personally would have enjoyed those 2 cards alot more if they were introduced in the last set. That way they would have only 4 months of full power, which would also would have taken a lot of time to figure out and then people would have needed to rethink again in the next year.
i think there are many more aspects but trying to not write too much
have a nice weekend fellas!
I can understand that, but I think that's bias on your side. The meta does, in fact, have way more decks than before (or at least matchups are more evenly spread).
There are still regular decks around. If a deck makes better use of all cards than they do with an uupgraded Hero power they won't use it, simple as that. Where's Even Hunter? Where's Odd Priest?
All Baku/Genn do is outshine regular decks that attempt to do the same thing (Odd Paladin is superior to a regular aggro paladin for example) but that would happen even if they didn't exist. People are still going to be playing the best decks available and in the best decklist will always make it to the top.
Your argument seems to be that you don't like to play Even/Odd. Then don't, but don't demand that Blizzard makes it so the only decks that are palyable are the ones you want to play.
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
Yeah i like writing too thats why i write a couple of pages each day of a sci fy novel i wish one day to publish. Its only a hobbie cause i dont have any time for serious stuff due to work issues. I sure as hell wouldn't dedicate 90 minutes of my precious Saturday into defending a serious flaw in the game which nearly all streamers pro players and community say they are busted. Even the nerfs have been to cards that are overpowered due to their powecreep in those decks.
I said that as kinda of a joke but ur blatant arrogant and inflexible attitude towards me and many ppl that posted here raises a huge red flag. One that makes me not pursue any kind of further discussion regarding u or ur defense on this huge design flaw that are Baku and Genn
You make very good points, and everything you touch on, I agree with. However, I feel the negative part of Baku and Genn is the consistency. Maybe the hero powers aren’t “OP”, but it’s happening every time they play that deck. Reno decks have a huge disadvantage to build around, and sometimes they didn’t even get their build around cards. With these two cards, every game plays out about the same. You get the benefit no matter what. Part of a card game is drawing the cards, and Genn and Baku effectively say “Add a 0 mana card to your starting hand that upgrades/discounts your hero power”
well, the rotation does affect these decks heavily (good luck playing Even paladin without 50% of its current power budget) .
I also think that the whole odd/even eclispsing regular decks is just an illusion. Good decks always outshine worse decks. The same could be said about Quest Rogue outshining Miracle Rogue. When both decks have the same goal it comes down to who does it better.
If Odd Paladin is better at beatdown than regular aggro Paladin than that's just how it is. I don't see anyone complaining that Spellhunter outshines Odd Hunter even thought that's the exact same case.
Have faith in the rotation, I can almost guarantee that the even/Odd playstyles will change massively (at least in Paladin, Rogue and possibly Warlock)
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
Oh god. Im not such an ugly person...
I dont even netdeck. And I'm so tired of facing all these competitive people that you are talking about. But you know, only the strongest will survive.. so only the best decks will see play in this MF game.
your only contribution was a lame joke questioning my priorities. Stupid questions demand stupid answers. If you can't handle banter then get off the internet.
Also, nice way of saying "I can't think of a proper rebuttal right now, but I don#t like you so I don't have to bother"
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
You've converted me. I was lost in the sea as well. I was even in favor of the possibility that Genn and Baku are put in the Hall of Fame as special inclusions at the upcoming Year of the ____ expansion.
I 100% agree - Genn/Baku have highlighted an issue, but are not an issue themselves.
I have :)
I personally don't play those decks much. Tried most of them, but I only had fun with even paladin occasionally. I as a paladin lover hope that there will be more decks besides otk or "buff your dudes and go".
As ppl mentioned, I don't like every game beeing almost the same. I love when crazy stuff happens. Rng to a certain degree and when you don't have only one way to win the game.
on the flipside, inconsitency feels bad on both sides as well. I remember when people complained about Reno because matchups were pretty much decided by whether you drew Reno in time or not.
Hearthstone is a game with very limited card draw and that'S honestly one of its biggest flaw. So many cards and decks don't work because you don't draw your essentials in time or because amtchups literally depend on opening with specific cards.
If draw RNG is the only thing balancing a deck (like it is right now with hunters, who can win purely on getting Spellstone in their mullligan) then it bad design.
the consistency is the good thing about Baku/genn because it allows you to actually build a deck around the premise. i'd rather have more consistent cards with average power level than a bunch of highrolling bullshit like Barnes that people build decks around purely because of probability percentages.
You can't honestly tell me that a Spell hunter deck running BArnes + Y'shaarj just to get lucky and maybe close the game on turn 4 is better design than a deck with a consistent upgrade that's balanced around card limitations.
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
that is just not true. The best decks will be the most popular, but that's just how things work. That doesn't mean worse decks can't also win. There's a reason we have tier lists. Just because a deck is tier 3 doesn't mean it's unplayable. Many people have climbed ladder with "bad" decks, because they like to play them.
I have beaten different tier 1 decks with Discardlock, Quest Hunter, Pogo Rogue and so on. Sure, my winrates aren't spectacular, but that doesn't mean I can't play the game.
If your idea is that every deck should be equally viable then I'm sorry to say that can't ever work. Even if we kept on nerfing every tier 1 deck, another one will just take its spot. There has to be a deck that'S on top, that's always been the case, ti doesn't matter if that deck is Odd Paladin or Mech Rogue. Some decks will always be better than others, but you don't need to force yourself to play them. Losing is part of the game too you know.
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
You are way easily offended. Try to work on that AND put that effort of defending a digital card game into something productive. Or do u profit anything from defending a game owned by a multimillionaire company? Yeah didnt think so.
Your precious company is crushing the basic and classic sets in order to sell more packs from each new exp or do u disagree with this as well? And Baku and Genn are part of that problem too. Recent nerfs are prime example of it.
If u cant see this then u are lost!
I think the issue that argument illustrates is not really every card having to be designed around them, but how difficult that task actually is. The devs are human, and one miss can be enough to push these already volatile decks over the top. Of course, they can just nerf that card and make it cost (1) more (whether or not the card is problematic on its own).
This is still not enough of a problem to butcher anything, especially before the nerfs arrive and impact the meta. There are probably at least 3 sets of nerfs to come this year, though, and time will tell how hard Baku and Genn will dictate them. If they do, it probably means the task above is as hard as it looks or more.
The rest of your text makes sense (unfortunately xD). The rest of your points debunked the opposition quite well.
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health.
- Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
I already know how the game works, thank you. But we were talking about baku and genn right?!
I'm not complaining about them. I'm complaining about missing the opportunity to play even/odd decks (that make sense) for all the 9 classes.
Thats it.
well that's just unrealistic. Some Upgraded Hero Powers are just more useful than others. They never intended for all 9 classes to have viable even AND odd decks. Some can run both (Paladin, Rogue) some realistically only one (Warlock, Mage) and some just can't really use any of them....yet. We still have 3 more expansions of Genn/Baku and there is no reason why decks like Odd Priest, Druid, Shaman or Even Rogue, Hunter, Mage couldn't get some more support down the line.
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
when are you going to publish your post as a 7 edition encyclopedia? I'd like to buy it and pretend that I've read it