Now with the recently announced nerfs there's been a lot of talk about Baku, the Mooneater and Genn Greymane and how they affect the meta and balance changes going forward.
A lot of people seem to have a very negative image of these two cards and argue that they should have never been printed. A lot of people also make a bunch of very unfounded claims and conclusions and this is where I have a problem.
Now, for the people in question, I'm going to be as civil as possible here, but for the full expierience I suggest you imagine that I'm calling you a moron every other sentence.
I'm going to start this off with a blanket statement:
Genn and Baku are not bad design by default.
I will elaborate more on this later, but for now just see it as my default position.
Next we're gonna take a look at some of the arguments against Genn/Baku and try to refute those.
1) "they cause balance changes to perfectly fine cards"
This is simply a misrepresentation of reality. A lot of people seem to be quit upset about the recently announced nerfs to Equality, Cold Blood, andFlametongue Totem. They also seem to be convinced that (at least some) of these changes are a direct result of the influence that certain Baku/Genn decks have on the meta.
Now here's the thing. Baku/Genn did not cause those cards to be nerfed. Those cards were always on the radar. They were not perfectly fine.
Now sure, the arrival of Odd/Even decks eventually made pushed them overboard, BUT THAT COULD HAVE LITERALLY HAPPENED WITH ANY OTHER DECK. The point of these nerfs is not to get around nerfing Genn/Baku by hitting cards that never were a problem, but about toning down cards that had always been way too powerful and only needed some sort of push to exceed accceptable standards.
Hunter's Mark has always been ridiculously strong card, simply because of the fact that cheap targetted removal is king in the game. It's been nerfed twice now. Equality is basically the same thing but as an AoE and it costs 2??? The only reason that Equality as is for so long is because there was never really a dominant Control Paladin archetype and the reason for that is because they never printed good singular boardlclears for Paladin, which they COULDN'T because Pyromancer+Equlality is literally the best board clear to ever exist and it costs 4 mana.
Now we actually have a very strong Control/Combo Paladin with Holy Wrath Pally. I've actually played with and against this one a lot in the last weeks and let me tell you this. It's NOT fun to be on the receiving end as you watch your opponent draw their entire deck to bonk you in the face while iceblocking twice and healing from anyhwere up to 28 damage in a single turn.
One of the key cards in that deck is equality and the fact that it allows you to wipe any board by turn 4, which is HUGE against any aggressive deck relying on snowballing. Equality was never fine at 2 and it wouldn't be fine at 3 regardless of whether Odd Paladin exists or not.
That's the second thing. Odd Paladin would not use Equality (at least not right now) Odd paladin is not a midrange deck, it'S a full on aggro deck that wants to smash your face in. Running Equality in Odd Paladin is the same as running Crushing Walls in Spell hunter. Yes, obviously you can do it as a comeback option...but it'S legitimately pointless when you can just run literally any agrressive card and actually support your gameplan.
The same thing essentially goes for Flametongue Totem. It didn't get nerfed because Even Shaman dominates Wild (although that probably was final straw) but because it has always been ridiculous and severely restricted the type of 1-drops you could print for Shaman. Remember Tunnel Trogg? That thing wasn't just op because it scaled really hard, but also because SHaman at the time had 3 2-drops that could help it apply pressure (or value trade) immediately. Flametongue was one of them and it only got overlooked because Totem Golem was just so much more ridiculous.
to sum this part up: No, Genn and Baku don't directly influence which cards get nerfed, they merely expose certain cards as being as strong as they already are.
2) "they warp the meta and make every deck feel the same"
this one's just plain stupid. Baku/Genn have probably brought more variety to the game than any build around card before. We have cards like Raid Leader and Nightblade in actual meta decks. JUST THINK ABOUT THAT.
Instead of just building our decks out of whatever cards have bigger bullshit numbers slapped onto them we actually consider using subpar filler cards in order to get the benefit of upgraded hero powers.
At the same time, pretty much all the deck variations are different. Some even have multiple versions. Odd MAge can choose an aggressive as well as a control playstyle. Even Paladin is probably the purest midrange deck we've ever had, while Odd Paladin is just straight up aggro beat down. Then there'S all the variants that don'T actually see play like Even Rogue (which could actually be good in the future) or Odd Druid. All these possibilities give you an incentive to be creative with the limited cards that are available to you.
NOw here's the thing that really irritates me about all this: For effectively years the community has been demanding new mechanics and more incentive to actually build different decks for different playstyles instead of just Frankensteining the biggest numbers into the rushdown deck of the season. The very moment Blizzard implements cards like these you throw a hissy fit because what, the decks actually work and have a place in the meta? I'm sorry would you rather we go back to Prince Valanar and his one expansion of glory until they actually printed good 4-drops for Rogue and Warlock?
When has "being a deck in the meta" become a reason for nerfs? I mean, I don't like Odd Paladin either, but there's a whole lot of reasons why that deck is bullshit and it's not purely because of the Hero POwer. Moreover, Baku/Genn decks don't even dominate the meta at all. Hunter does that now and before that it was Druid...neither of which used Baku/Genn. Hell, the only reason why Paladin is even up there is because of the amount of nutty cards they've had shoved up their asses since Un'Goro. Baku/Genn just neatly tied 'em together into a slamming package. I mean does nobody remember Murloc Paladin and Aggro Paladin violating the meta?
3) "The upgraded hero powers are ridiculous and shouldn't be available on turn 1"
Now this one I can actually somewhat agree on, but people still misrepresent the fuck out of it.
First of all, basic Hero Power for (1)mana is never broken in any case but one: Warlock. And guess what the problem is: Mountain Giant on 3 ofc. So even in the most abusive case the culprit isn't actually Genn himself, but the stupidly designed Mountain Giant who should have been Hall of Famed a year ago, once again highlighting the fact that Genn/Baku don't create problems, but merely highlight them.
MOst people don't even seem to get why Even Paladin (or Even Shaman) are as strong as they are. It's not just because building an Even deck gives you access to a guaranteed turn 1 play, but because pretty much 90% of SHaman/Paladin's overly powerful cards fall into the Even bracket. NErfing/removing Genn would not solve the fact that these cards are still very much overpowered and will cause problems in the future, which is why the devs were smart enough to identify them and take them out immediately, but because most of the community have the foresight of a goldfish with amnesia they only ever understand nerfs that address an immediate problem.
I've used this example a lot, but remember Fiery War Axe and Hex? Back when Warrior and Shaman ere ruling the meta with their respective aggro decks EVERYONE was calling for nerfs on these very much overpowered cards and when they eventually got nerfed people were like "wtf, why nerf these cards, you're killing the class, REEEEE". LIteral goldfish.
Now concerning Baku, there is an actual problem. Some of the upgraded hero powers are obviously fine as their power is compensated by not being able to play certain cards. Odd Mage has powerful aggressive potential, but can't use Fireball or Frostbolt. Odd Rogue has access to a strong early tempo game and a (mostly) guaranteed turn 3 4/4, but can't access burst or removal like Eviscerate or Sap
But then there are those who are a little different, namely Paladin and Warrior. Odd Paladin has without a doubt the best hero power to have from turn 1. Summoning tokens constantly is powerful in any aggressive (or even midrange) deck. This gets even strong when they have access to cards that buff multiple minions (Fungalmancer, Raid Leader, Formerly Level Up!). Out of these, Level Up! was most definitely enrfed because of Baku, since it probably would have never seen an excessive amount of play otherwise. However, we do have to consider the following. If Baku never existed, LEvel Up! would not have been used as much (It saw play as a 1-of in aggro Paladin during KnC). Thanks to Baku, we actually did get to play it and we quickly figured out THAT IT'S NOT A LOT OF FUN TO FACE. Once again, Baku highlights a very powerful ccard by, for lack of a better term, unleashing its full potential which very clearly shows that said card should have never been playable in the first place as it's way too strong in that instance, thus it needs to be nerfed.
Secondly, there is Warrior. Tank Up is broken. There is no way around it. Being able to constantly stack armor in class that is already hard enough to kill AND has access to a lot of grinding tools that make for very polarized matchups. In my opinion (and I might detail this in another thread) Odd Warrior needs to be nerfed HARD within the first few months of the next expansion because it will most likely DOMINATE the new meta and effectively ruin what could be the most balanced meta in a while. Either way, clearly Baku is at fault for this one....or is she?
Now most of you probably know that the upgraded Hero Powers were a thing way before WW in the form of Justicar Trueheart. This card was mainly run in Control Priest and Warrior decks (and some midrange PAladins) as theirs were the most coveted Hero Powers. Here's thing thing though: These Hero POwers have been an issue way before. Tank Up was broken on turn 7 just as it is on turn 2. This was the era where Control Warrior obliterated the field by turning every game into a 40-minute grindfest that could beat pretty much any deck in the game that wasn't fortunate enough to rush it down before Tank Up came online (it also dried up your wallet by being the most expensive thing around). Later this deck transformed into C'Thun Warrior which tore up the meta for a while until it got powercreeped out of existence by Jade Druid.
Fact is that gaining 4 armor for 2-mana every signle turn is broken, no matter how you look at it. This, however, is not a problem with Baku, but rather the Hero Power itself, or, by extension the amount of extremely efficient odd-cost defensive powerhouses in the game. One of the most busted of these is, in my opinon, long time staple Brawl. Originally Warrior's only board clear (in a meta where clearing the board more than twice a game wasn't nearly as important as it is now) it basically decided every aggro matchup. If Warrior had Brawl on 5 when you were trying to build a board to pressure them you probably lost (unless RNGesus blessed you with a highroll).
What I'm playing at is basically this: If Odd Warrior ever starts to take over the meta it is because Tank Up is OP, and because whatever removal options it has access to at the moment are OP. The entire deck can easily be taken down a notch by
a) nerfing tank up to 3 armor (so it doesn't mercilessly powercreep upgraded Priest Hero power, which, for the most part, is just a strictly worse version)
or
b) hitting those Odd Warrior cards that have been getting away with ther powerlevel only because Control Warrior's success heavily depends on what counters are available at the moment (it is my personal believe that Brawl should 6-mana and Odd Warrior defensive potential should come from pwoerful single (or double) target removal throuhg Shield Slam and Supercollider) while AOE clears should be either weaker at a cheaper cost or be nerfed to even costs (s. Brawl)
Once again, I'm trying to demonstrate how all the problems that come with Genn/Baku have actually existed way before and would eventually have become an issue in the future, regardless of Genn/Baku.
4) "they directly and indirectly affect future card design, since every card has to have their cost designed around them"
this is probably the worst argument I ever heard. HOW IS THIS A BAD THING?. For years we have had terrible card design purely based on lack of foresight on the devs' part. Why is it a bad thing to have them actually deliberately exclude certain cards from Odd/Even decks in order to keep them from being overpowered? It'S not like they're going to stop supporting certain decks or deliberately make unplayable cards just because of Genn/Baku.
Look at Jan'alai, the Dragonhawk and Spirit of the Dragonhawk. The first was clearly designed as a power boost to Odd Mage, a deck that previously hadn't seen much success. The second could have easily been playable in said Odd MAge deck, but presumably through playtesting they figured it would make Control Odd MAge stronger than necessary....and they were probably right (I played Spirit in Big Spell Mage, and while it wasn't consistent enough to be worth running, when it paid off, it paid off HARD)
Another good example is War Master Voone. In the initial reveal video by Wronchi it was a 5-mana 4/4 but somehwere during the end of the development cycle, someone actually had the brains to point out that maybe we shouldn't give Odd-Dragon Warrior even more value when they already have Dr. Boom. Thus they buffed/nerfed it to a 4-mana 4/3 (which technically is a much better statline, but obviously was meant to dampen Odd Warrior's power). This alone proves that the dev team is much more careful with card design (I promise you that a year ago they would have just let 5-mana Voone slide and then retroactively nerfed it after Odd Dragon Warrior dominated the entire meta).
Genn/Baku don't restrict design space as much as they merely force the devs to be more careful when designing powerful cards that really only need a minimum of support to suddenly get out of control. In fact, literally the only cards that are directly influenced by Genn/baku are those who have direct synergy with their hero powers.
For example: it would be a pretty bad idea to print something like Spikeridged Steed again as one of the main counters to the card is to keep the board clear on turn 5 so they have to wait to at least turn 8 before they can hero power + Steed. In Even Paladin, that limit is reduced to 7-mana thanks to the hero power, which is why Steed is even better in that deck, than in others.
the only instances where this could be considered a detriment is when it comes to building decks like Dude Paladin which wants to utilize both Lightfused Stegodon and Level Up!, forcing you to go regular, instead of the much more effective Odd. Then again, that's kind of intentional. Not every potential archetype should have all its best cards available. That's the entire point of deckbuilding. To play aorund your possibiliteis and restrictions.
This is, ultimately, why I despise the crowd of Brian "I play shitty meme decks and craft every useless card in the game in golden, please still consider me as an authority on game balance because I played MAgic sometime ago" Kibler worshipping lemmings, who parrot the whole "stop nerfing muh basic/classic cards, rotate them instead" rhetoric.
Rotating core sets fix nothing if those cards are still broken. Wild is a mess as it is, and this was made clear by Blizzard since the very beginning. Sure, it may have been a little presumptuous to label it as "the place where you get to play all your old decks", but it'S not reasnoable to demand that they should just not nerf clearly problematic cards just so some random can masturbate over steamrolling some poor shmuck with a 1-mana 7/3 Mana Wyrm.
Blizard made it clear that they want to design the game around Standard, a mode that ideally circumvents powercreep by changing up its cardpool every year while also having a constant framework to design new cards around.
In all seriousness, people who think a rotating core set would do anything other than make card design even more volatile are just naive. No base set means that every new mechanic needs to be supported entirely by the expansion it was released in or by cards from the previous year (and if said year rotates then they are effectively dead as you can't realistically print enough support to make them viable again). Does nobody remember the dumpster fire that was Freeze Shaman? They tried (and failed) to create a completely new Archetype that ultimately didn't work because there was no framework to put it in and if they tried to support it further Shaman would be in an even worse place than it is right now (you're all sleeping on Aggro Thunderhead Shaman btw. the meta has become so greedy that you can freely just wait for your Doomhammer nad burst them from 18).
A solid core set is a good idea, even if it means that you will encounter some cards over and over again. This is fine, as long as they do not shut down alternative builds (look at Fireball for example. one of the most versatile spells in the game, but it didn't stop Big Spell Mage from existing). When that happens, classic cards will just have to be nerfed. They have done this before, remember Knife Juggler? That used to be a 3/2 and was played in basically every aggro/midrange deck because why not? after it got nerfed it disappeared for a while, but showe up again later in decks that actually used it primarily for its ability and not just because it was the best 2-drop available at the time. Same is going to happen to Equality, Cold Blood, Flametongue Totem and so on. People will use them because it makes sense, not because its mandatory.
Conclusion
This was a pretty big rant, but I needed to get this out. We need to stop this brainless hate towards the devs when they are legitimately trying to do their job. This doesn't mean you can't criticize them or tell them they're making a mistake, but I am so tired of people parroting the retarded "lul, rank 2 devs don't even play the game" when they're clearly trying way harder to actually imrpove the game through more frequent changes and giving actual explanations than ever before. Fact is that most of the community (including myself ofc) are just talking out of their asses most of the time. We aren't game designers. We don't have the same data the devs do. If you want a game that constantly makes reactive changes with no long term planning go play League of Legends, see how you like that heap of garbage.
To sum it up: Genn/Baku are not inherently a problem. They don't casue issues, they just push them into the spotlight. BY virtue of being designed around mana costs they force the devs to actually consider the implications of the mana costs of various cards, which, in the long run, leads to more thoughtful game design. Card nerfs are no longer just about solving immediate problems, but also help clean up problems with past designs for a much better future game. Wild is a dumpster and nobody ever claimed otherwise, playing it is your own choice. And finally, Brian Kibler is a charming man with a lot of insight into the process of game design. He is, however, not the ultimate authority on balance changes and his past achievements don't make him infallible. He is, to put it bluntly, dead wrong on this issue and blinded by his own biased way of playing the game.
I'm looking forward to your take on this wall of text
2) "they warp the meta and make every deck feel the same"
But that's true. Yeah, it brought a lot of variety at the launch. But at the same time the meta is very stale for almost a year. Non baku/genn decks rarely can compete with even/odd decks. We see the same decks with just a few different cards every expansion. It was fresh at first, but now people want something new, not to play again against odd paladin and even shaman. After the rotation nothing will change. We will have odd paladin with different set of cards, but the playstyle of the deck will be exactly the same as it is now.
it's really less about the hate and more about the fact that the community has very little credibility as is. The more people succumb to retardation and hysteria the more likely it is that the devs are going to ignore our concerns entirely.
My main concern is once they rotate out (assuming they aren't converted to evergreen, which I could see), wild will become broken. Once the two rotate out, Blizzard would stop considering baku and genn and when designing cards so then the power level of them in wild will be insane.
2) "they warp the meta and make every deck feel the same"
But that's true. Yeah, it brought a lot of variety at the launch. But at the same time the meta is very stale for almost a year. Non baku/genn decks rarely can compete with even/odd decks. We see the same decks with just a few different cards every expansion. It was fresh at first, but now people want something new, not to play again against odd paladin and even shaman. After the rotation nothing will change. We will have odd paladin with different set of cards, but the playstyle of the deck will be exactly the same as it is now.
but that has nothing to do with Genn/baku, that'S literally every single metadeck ever. That#S just how the game works and that'S why these balance changes are great, since they tend to shake things up at least a little.
Also, There's still so much potential in many of the Even/Odd builds. Even Rogue could be a great midrange deck in a meta with less mana cheating. ODd Druid could be the future of Druid considering the class is dead in all other aspects.
Also, if you think odd Paladin will be the same after the rotation you have no idea how that deck works. Without Rigtheous Protector, Fungalmancer, Unidentified Maul, Vinecleaver, and Corridor Creeper that deck will never be the same kind of aggro again. It'll probablyy have to go a mech/midrange route or else it will just be a worse aggro deck than Odd Hunter
I think that summoning 2 silver hand recruit is much more powerful than healing any character for 3.
If you are a dev and your planning to print such designs, you must give to all the classes the tools to interact with them. After 2 expansions from the release of WW, I still can't see a way to play both even/odd priest or druid.
My main concern is once they rotate out (assuming they aren't converted to evergreen, which I could see), wild will become broken. Once the two rotate out, Blizzard would stop considering baku and genn and when designing cards so then the power level of them in wild will be insane.
but Wild is already broken as is, plus it gets powercreeped every single expansions anyways. I remember when people thought Dr. Boom would be a staple there forever and now he isn't even in 50% of popular decks there.
At the end, Odd/even decks are only as good as the sum of their parts. If any of these decks eventually takes over wild because of new support they could easily be nerfed by just removing some other wild-only cards (like they did with Aviana, leaving PSychmelon intact for future use in Standard)
I think that summoning 2 silver hand recruit is much more powerful than healing any character for 3.
If you are a dev and your planning to print such designs, you must give to all the classes the tools to interact with them. After 2 expansions from the release of WW, I still can't see a way to play both even/odd priest or druid.
As I said, 2 recruits is only a problem if there are too many good ways to buff them. Currently there are too many snowballing cards for Odd Paladin, which will all rotate in April.
Also, ODd Druid and Odd Priest are both playable decks...they'Re just not very good right now, but that can change easily. Just look at how Odd Mage turned from shit to gold with just 3 new cards.
I just get tired of all the talk about being, "oh this fits in even' and 'oh you won't have that in odd'. I liked the game better when you just picked out cards and made a deck. Then they had to go and print these garbage cards, and for what? It's not like the meta has more decks than before. It just makes design and balance more difficult than it already was, and it's not like Team 5 was seeing much success with that before. Just get rid of the even/odd bullshit and give us our game back. Send it to wild, I don't care, I will just not play wild anymore and use the dust to ride out what little is left of this fading game.
I think that summoning 2 silver hand recruit is much more powerful than healing any character for 3.
If you are a dev and your planning to print such designs, you must give to all the classes the tools to interact with them. After 2 expansions from the release of WW, I still can't see a way to play both even/odd priest or druid.
As I said, 2 recruits is only a problem if there are too many good ways to buff them. Currently there are too many snowballing cards for Odd Paladin, which will all rotate in April.
Also, ODd Druid and Odd Priest are both playable decks...they'Re just not very good right now, but that can change easily. Just look at how Odd Mage turned from shit to gold with just 3 new cards.
Is that a joke? I never saw any player bringing odd mage to a tournament. Playable doesnt mean anything in hs.
You win or you lose. Look at the win rates of odd rogue/pala and compare them with odd priest/druid. Thats the state of things...
Now with the recently announced nerfs there's been a lot of talk about Baku, the Mooneater and Genn Greymane and how they affect the meta and balance changes going forward.
A lot of people seem to have a very negative image of these two cards and argue that they should have never been printed. A lot of people also make a bunch of very unfounded claims and conclusions and this is where I have a problem.
Now, for the people in question, I'm going to be as civil as possible here, but for the full expierience I suggest you imagine that I'm calling you a moron every other sentence.
I'm going to start this off with a blanket statement:
Genn and Baku are not bad design by default.
I will elaborate more on this later, but for now just see it as my default position.
Next we're gonna take a look at some of the arguments against Genn/Baku and try to refute those.
1) "they cause balance changes to perfectly fine cards"
This is simply a misrepresentation of reality. A lot of people seem to be quit upset about the recently announced nerfs to Equality, Cold Blood, andFlametongue Totem. They also seem to be convinced that (at least some) of these changes are a direct result of the influence that certain Baku/Genn decks have on the meta.
Now here's the thing. Baku/Genn did not cause those cards to be nerfed. Those cards were always on the radar. They were not perfectly fine.
Now sure, the arrival of Odd/Even decks eventually made pushed them overboard, BUT THAT COULD HAVE LITERALLY HAPPENED WITH ANY OTHER DECK. The point of these nerfs is not to get around nerfing Genn/Baku by hitting cards that never were a problem, but about toning down cards that had always been way too powerful and only needed some sort of push to exceed accceptable standards.
Hunter's Mark has always been ridiculously strong card, simply because of the fact that cheap targetted removal is king in the game. It's been nerfed twice now. Equality is basically the same thing but as an AoE and it costs 2??? The only reason that Equality as is for so long is because there was never really a dominant Control Paladin archetype and the reason for that is because they never printed good singular boardlclears for Paladin, which they COULDN'T because Pyromancer+Equlality is literally the best board clear to ever exist and it costs 4 mana.
Now we actually have a very strong Control/Combo Paladin with Holy Wrath Pally. I've actually played with and against this one a lot in the last weeks and let me tell you this. It's NOT fun to be on the receiving end as you watch your opponent draw their entire deck to bonk you in the face while iceblocking twice and healing from anyhwere up to 28 damage in a single turn.
One of the key cards in that deck is equality and the fact that it allows you to wipe any board by turn 4, which is HUGE against any aggressive deck relying on snowballing. Equality was never fine at 2 and it wouldn't be fine at 3 regardless of whether Odd Paladin exists or not.
That's the second thing. Odd Paladin would not use Equality (at least not right now) Odd paladin is not a midrange deck, it'S a full on aggro deck that wants to smash your face in. Running Equality in Odd Paladin is the same as running Crushing Walls in Spell hunter. Yes, obviously you can do it as a comeback option...but it'S legitimately pointless when you can just run literally any agrressive card and actually support your gameplan.
The same thing essentially goes for Flametongue Totem. It didn't get nerfed because Even Shaman dominates Wild (although that probably was final straw) but because it has always been ridiculous and severely restricted the type of 1-drops you could print for Shaman. Remember Tunnel Trogg? That thing wasn't just op because it scaled really hard, but also because SHaman at the time had 3 2-drops that could help it apply pressure (or value trade) immediately. Flametongue was one of them and it only got overlooked because Totem Golem was just so much more ridiculous.
to sum this part up: No, Genn and Baku don't directly influence which cards get nerfed, they merely expose certain cards as being as strong as they already are.
2) "they warp the meta and make every deck feel the same"
this one's just plain stupid. Baku/Genn have probably brought more variety to the game than any build around card before. We have cards like Raid Leader and Nightblade in actual meta decks. JUST THINK ABOUT THAT.
Instead of just building our decks out of whatever cards have bigger bullshit numbers slapped onto them we actually consider using subpar filler cards in order to get the benefit of upgraded hero powers.
At the same time, pretty much all the deck variations are different. Some even have multiple versions. Odd MAge can choose an aggressive as well as a control playstyle. Even Paladin is probably the purest midrange deck we've ever had, while Odd Paladin is just straight up aggro beat down. Then there'S all the variants that don'T actually see play like Even Rogue (which could actually be good in the future) or Odd Druid. All these possibilities give you an incentive to be creative with the limited cards that are available to you.
NOw here's the thing that really irritates me about all this: For effectively years the community has been demanding new mechanics and more incentive to actually build different decks for different playstyles instead of just Frankensteining the biggest numbers into the rushdown deck of the season. The very moment Blizzard implements cards like these you throw a hissy fit because what, the decks actually work and have a place in the meta? I'm sorry would you rather we go back to Prince Valanar and his one expansion of glory until they actually printed good 4-drops for Rogue and Warlock?
When has "being a deck in the meta" become a reason for nerfs? I mean, I don't like Odd Paladin either, but there's a whole lot of reasons why that deck is bullshit and it's not purely because of the Hero POwer. Moreover, Baku/Genn decks don't even dominate the meta at all. Hunter does that now and before that it was Druid...neither of which used Baku/Genn. Hell, the only reason why Paladin is even up there is because of the amount of nutty cards they've had shoved up their asses since Un'Goro. Baku/Genn just neatly tied 'em together into a slamming package. I mean does nobody remember Murloc Paladin and Aggro Paladin violating the meta?
3) "The upgraded hero powers are ridiculous and shouldn't be available on turn 1"
Now this one I can actually somewhat agree on, but people still misrepresent the fuck out of it.
First of all, basic Hero Power for (1)mana is never broken in any case but one: Warlock. And guess what the problem is: Mountain Giant on 3 ofc. So even in the most abusive case the culprit isn't actually Genn himself, but the stupidly designed Mountain Giant who should have been Hall of Famed a year ago, once again highlighting the fact that Genn/Baku don't create problems, but merely highlight them.
MOst people don't even seem to get why Even Paladin (or Even Shaman) are as strong as they are. It's not just because building an Even deck gives you access to a guaranteed turn 1 play, but because pretty much 90% of SHaman/Paladin's overly powerful cards fall into the Even bracket. NErfing/removing Genn would not solve the fact that these cards are still very much overpowered and will cause problems in the future, which is why the devs were smart enough to identify them and take them out immediately, but because most of the community have the foresight of a goldfish with amnesia they only ever understand nerfs that address an immediate problem.
I've used this example a lot, but remember Fiery War Axe and Hex? Back when Warrior and Shaman ere ruling the meta with their respective aggro decks EVERYONE was calling for nerfs on these very much overpowered cards and when they eventually got nerfed people were like "wtf, why nerf these cards, you're killing the class, REEEEE". LIteral goldfish.
Now concerning Baku, there is an actual problem. Some of the upgraded hero powers are obviously fine as their power is compensated by not being able to play certain cards. Odd Mage has powerful aggressive potential, but can't use Fireball or Frostbolt. Odd Rogue has access to a strong early tempo game and a (mostly) guaranteed turn 3 4/4, but can't access burst or removal like Eviscerate or Sap
But then there are those who are a little different, namely Paladin and Warrior. Odd Paladin has without a doubt the best hero power to have from turn 1. Summoning tokens constantly is powerful in any aggressive (or even midrange) deck. This gets even strong when they have access to cards that buff multiple minions (Fungalmancer, Raid Leader, Formerly Level Up!). Out of these, Level Up! was most definitely enrfed because of Baku, since it probably would have never seen an excessive amount of play otherwise. However, we do have to consider the following. If Baku never existed, LEvel Up! would not have been used as much (It saw play as a 1-of in aggro Paladin during KnC). Thanks to Baku, we actually did get to play it and we quickly figured out THAT IT'S NOT A LOT OF FUN TO FACE. Once again, Baku highlights a very powerful ccard by, for lack of a better term, unleashing its full potential which very clearly shows that said card should have never been playable in the first place as it's way too strong in that instance, thus it needs to be nerfed.
Secondly, there is Warrior. Tank Up is broken. There is no way around it. Being able to constantly stack armor in class that is already hard enough to kill AND has access to a lot of grinding tools that make for very polarized matchups. In my opinion (and I might detail this in another thread) Odd Warrior needs to be nerfed HARD within the first few months of the next expansion because it will most likely DOMINATE the new meta and effectively ruin what could be the most balanced meta in a while. Either way, clearly Baku is at fault for this one....or is she?
Now most of you probably know that the upgraded Hero Powers were a thing way before WW in the form of Justicar Trueheart. This card was mainly run in Control Priest and Warrior decks (and some midrange PAladins) as theirs were the most coveted Hero Powers. Here's thing thing though: These Hero POwers have been an issue way before. Tank Up was broken on turn 7 just as it is on turn 2. This was the era where Control Warrior obliterated the field by turning every game into a 40-minute grindfest that could beat pretty much any deck in the game that wasn't fortunate enough to rush it down before Tank Up came online (it also dried up your wallet by being the most expensive thing around). Later this deck transformed into C'Thun Warrior which tore up the meta for a while until it got powercreeped out of existence by Jade Druid.
Fact is that gaining 4 armor for 2-mana every signle turn is broken, no matter how you look at it. This, however, is not a problem with Baku, but rather the Hero Power itself, or, by extension the amount of extremely efficient odd-cost defensive powerhouses in the game. One of the most busted of these is, in my opinon, long time staple Brawl. Originally Warrior's only board clear (in a meta where clearing the board more than twice a game wasn't nearly as important as it is now) it basically decided every aggro matchup. If Warrior had Brawl on 5 when you were trying to build a board to pressure them you probably lost (unless RNGesus blessed you with a highroll).
What I'm playing at is basically this: If Odd Warrior ever starts to take over the meta it is because Tank Up is OP, and because whatever removal options it has access to at the moment are OP. The entire deck can easily be taken down a notch by
a) nerfing tank up to 3 armor (so it doesn't mercilessly powercreep upgraded Priest Hero power, which, for the most part, is just a strictly worse version)
or
b) hitting those Odd Warrior cards that have been getting away with ther powerlevel only because Control Warrior's success heavily depends on what counters are available at the moment (it is my personal believe that Brawl should 6-mana and Odd Warrior defensive potential should come from pwoerful single (or double) target removal throuhg Shield Slam and Supercollider) while AOE clears should be either weaker at a cheaper cost or be nerfed to even costs (s. Brawl)
Once again, I'm trying to demonstrate how all the problems that come with Genn/Baku have actually existed way before and would eventually have become an issue in the future, regardless of Genn/Baku.
4) "they directly and indirectly affect future card design, since every card has to have their cost designed around them"
this is probably the worst argument I ever heard. HOW IS THIS A BAD THING?. For years we have had terrible card design purely based on lack of foresight on the devs' part. Why is it a bad thing to have them actually deliberately exclude certain cards from Odd/Even decks in order to keep them from being overpowered? It'S not like they're going to stop supporting certain decks or deliberately make unplayable cards just because of Genn/Baku.
Look at Jan'alai, the Dragonhawk and Spirit of the Dragonhawk. The first was clearly designed as a power boost to Odd Mage, a deck that previously hadn't seen much success. The second could have easily been playable in said Odd MAge deck, but presumably through playtesting they figured it would make Control Odd MAge stronger than necessary....and they were probably right (I played Spirit in Big Spell Mage, and while it wasn't consistent enough to be worth running, when it paid off, it paid off HARD)
Another good example is War Master Voone. In the initial reveal video by Wronchi it was a 5-mana 4/4 but somehwere during the end of the development cycle, someone actually had the brains to point out that maybe we shouldn't give Odd-Dragon Warrior even more value when they already have Dr. Boom. Thus they buffed/nerfed it to a 4-mana 4/3 (which technically is a much better statline, but obviously was meant to dampen Odd Warrior's power). This alone proves that the dev team is much more careful with card design (I promise you that a year ago they would have just let 5-mana Voone slide and then retroactively nerfed it after Odd Dragon Warrior dominated the entire meta).
Genn/Baku don't restrict design space as much as they merely force the devs to be more careful when designing powerful cards that really only need a minimum of support to suddenly get out of control. In fact, literally the only cards that are directly influenced by Genn/baku are those who have direct synergy with their hero powers.
For example: it would be a pretty bad idea to print something like Spikeridged Steed again as one of the main counters to the card is to keep the board clear on turn 5 so they have to wait to at least turn 8 before they can hero power + Steed. In Even Paladin, that limit is reduced to 7-mana thanks to the hero power, which is why Steed is even better in that deck, than in others.
the only instances where this could be considered a detriment is when it comes to building decks like Dude Paladin which wants to utilize both Lightfused Stegodon and Level Up!, forcing you to go regular, instead of the much more effective Odd. Then again, that's kind of intentional. Not every potential archetype should have all its best cards available. That's the entire point of deckbuilding. To play aorund your possibiliteis and restrictions.
This is, ultimately, why I despise the crowd of Brian "I play shitty meme decks and craft every useless card in the game in golden, please still consider me as an authority on game balance because I played MAgic sometime ago" Kibler worshipping lemmings, who parrot the whole "stop nerfing muh basic/classic cards, rotate them instead" rhetoric.
Rotating core sets fix nothing if those cards are still broken. Wild is a mess as it is, and this was made clear by Blizzard since the very beginning. Sure, it may have been a little presumptuous to label it as "the place where you get to play all your old decks", but it'S not reasnoable to demand that they should just not nerf clearly problematic cards just so some random can masturbate over steamrolling some poor shmuck with a 1-mana 7/3 Mana Wyrm.
Blizard made it clear that they want to design the game around Standard, a mode that ideally circumvents powercreep by changing up its cardpool every year while also having a constant framework to design new cards around.
In all seriousness, people who think a rotating core set would do anything other than make card design even more volatile are just naive. No base set means that every new mechanic needs to be supported entirely by the expansion it was released in or by cards from the previous year (and if said year rotates then they are effectively dead as you can't realistically print enough support to make them viable again). Does nobody remember the dumpster fire that was Freeze Shaman? They tried (and failed) to create a completely new Archetype that ultimately didn't work because there was no framework to put it in and if they tried to support it further Shaman would be in an even worse place than it is right now (you're all sleeping on Aggro Thunderhead Shaman btw. the meta has become so greedy that you can freely just wait for your Doomhammer nad burst them from 18).
A solid core set is a good idea, even if it means that you will encounter some cards over and over again. This is fine, as long as they do not shut down alternative builds (look at Fireball for example. one of the most versatile spells in the game, but it didn't stop Big Spell Mage from existing). When that happens, classic cards will just have to be nerfed. They have done this before, remember Knife Juggler? That used to be a 3/2 and was played in basically every aggro/midrange deck because why not? after it got nerfed it disappeared for a while, but showe up again later in decks that actually used it primarily for its ability and not just because it was the best 2-drop available at the time. Same is going to happen to Equality, Cold Blood, Flametongue Totem and so on. People will use them because it makes sense, not because its mandatory.
Conclusion
This was a pretty big rant, but I needed to get this out. We need to stop this brainless hate towards the devs when they are legitimately trying to do their job. This doesn't mean you can't criticize them or tell them they're making a mistake, but I am so tired of people parroting the retarded "lul, rank 2 devs don't even play the game" when they're clearly trying way harder to actually imrpove the game through more frequent changes and giving actual explanations than ever before. Fact is that most of the community (including myself ofc) are just talking out of their asses most of the time. We aren't game designers. We don't have the same data the devs do. If you want a game that constantly makes reactive changes with no long term planning go play League of Legends, see how you like that heap of garbage.
To sum it up: Genn/Baku are not inherently a problem. They don't casue issues, they just push them into the spotlight. BY virtue of being designed around mana costs they force the devs to actually consider the implications of the mana costs of various cards, which, in the long run, leads to more thoughtful game design. Card nerfs are no longer just about solving immediate problems, but also help clean up problems with past designs for a much better future game. Wild is a dumpster and nobody ever claimed otherwise, playing it is your own choice. And finally, Brian Kibler is a charming man with a lot of insight into the process of game design. He is, however, not the ultimate authority on balance changes and his past achievements don't make him infallible. He is, to put it bluntly, dead wrong on this issue and blinded by his own biased way of playing the game.
I'm looking forward to your take on this wall of text
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
"You're hired!" - President of the United States, probably
nice wall
Rejoice, for even in death, you have become children of Thanos.
sorry I forgot to phrase it in a 2-paragraph incoherent shitpost
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
0% chance I'm reading that.
I agree with you and they should make brawl 6 mana. The only way cards are restricting carddesign is having a better classic card.
Why would Blizzard design another card if brawl/equality+pyro is better? To create powercreeps of ridicilous porportions?
Haters gonna hate...
But i totally agree.
but you did take the time to scroll all the way down to express your lack of effort. Seems pointless tbh.
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
2) "they warp the meta and make every deck feel the same"
But that's true. Yeah, it brought a lot of variety at the launch. But at the same time the meta is very stale for almost a year. Non baku/genn decks rarely can compete with even/odd decks. We see the same decks with just a few different cards every expansion. It was fresh at first, but now people want something new, not to play again against odd paladin and even shaman. After the rotation nothing will change. We will have odd paladin with different set of cards, but the playstyle of the deck will be exactly the same as it is now.
it's really less about the hate and more about the fact that the community has very little credibility as is. The more people succumb to retardation and hysteria the more likely it is that the devs are going to ignore our concerns entirely.
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
My main concern is once they rotate out (assuming they aren't converted to evergreen, which I could see), wild will become broken. Once the two rotate out, Blizzard would stop considering baku and genn and when designing cards so then the power level of them in wild will be insane.
but that has nothing to do with Genn/baku, that'S literally every single metadeck ever. That#S just how the game works and that'S why these balance changes are great, since they tend to shake things up at least a little.
Also, There's still so much potential in many of the Even/Odd builds. Even Rogue could be a great midrange deck in a meta with less mana cheating. ODd Druid could be the future of Druid considering the class is dead in all other aspects.
Also, if you think odd Paladin will be the same after the rotation you have no idea how that deck works. Without Rigtheous Protector, Fungalmancer, Unidentified Maul, Vinecleaver, and Corridor Creeper that deck will never be the same kind of aggro again. It'll probablyy have to go a mech/midrange route or else it will just be a worse aggro deck than Odd Hunter
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
The problem is the hero power, not genn and baku.
I think that summoning 2 silver hand recruit is much more powerful than healing any character for 3.
If you are a dev and your planning to print such designs, you must give to all the classes the tools to interact with them. After 2 expansions from the release of WW, I still can't see a way to play both even/odd priest or druid.
but Wild is already broken as is, plus it gets powercreeped every single expansions anyways. I remember when people thought Dr. Boom would be a staple there forever and now he isn't even in 50% of popular decks there.
Cards like The Caverns Below and Deathstalker Rexxar are really strong in Standard but much weaker in Wild due to powercreep.
At the end, Odd/even decks are only as good as the sum of their parts. If any of these decks eventually takes over wild because of new support they could easily be nerfed by just removing some other wild-only cards (like they did with Aviana, leaving PSychmelon intact for future use in Standard)
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
This took some effort to write. Which leads me to think u got ur priorities all mixed up
As I said, 2 recruits is only a problem if there are too many good ways to buff them. Currently there are too many snowballing cards for Odd Paladin, which will all rotate in April.
Also, ODd Druid and Odd Priest are both playable decks...they'Re just not very good right now, but that can change easily. Just look at how Odd Mage turned from shit to gold with just 3 new cards.
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
this took me about 1 1/2 hours, I have nothing to do at the moment and I like writing. My priorities are fine, thanks for asking.
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
I just get tired of all the talk about being, "oh this fits in even' and 'oh you won't have that in odd'. I liked the game better when you just picked out cards and made a deck. Then they had to go and print these garbage cards, and for what? It's not like the meta has more decks than before. It just makes design and balance more difficult than it already was, and it's not like Team 5 was seeing much success with that before. Just get rid of the even/odd bullshit and give us our game back. Send it to wild, I don't care, I will just not play wild anymore and use the dust to ride out what little is left of this fading game.
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
I like the post.
Is that a joke? I never saw any player bringing odd mage to a tournament. Playable doesnt mean anything in hs.
You win or you lose. Look at the win rates of odd rogue/pala and compare them with odd priest/druid. Thats the state of things...