Before anything, this is a serious thread, not for saltiness, and our opinions may differ. If that's the case, discuss it like an adult.
IMO, this game has fallen into a trap of face decks that are hard to counter and tend to turn the meta into a rock-paper-scissors, where if you are deck A and face deck B, you lose. Direct damage has little to no counter other than extreme healing/armoring or this. Extreme healing and endless armor are quite toxic and boring to the game. Increasing health is the only possible way (apart from deleting cards from existence, which'll never happen), plus, creating decks where that 40 cards restriction is in fact a good thing (Lady Prestor I'm looking at you lol) could be a good thing for creativity.
What do I think will happen in the end with 40 health? Agro decks will change to board/token decks, like old Zoos. And more midrange deck will start flourishing. Those agro decks can be countered in a more healthy way (board clears, building your own board, taunts), and are A LOT more punishing. There is very little punish to face and direct damage, as I said before. I'm tired of wanting to try some deck and losing to some random folk who doesn't even knows how to play his deck (due to his mistakes), but wins anyways. Game is no fun when the opponent ignores you and throws you spells and hits you in the face. Sure, those players may think "this is fun". But eventually they'll get tired and leave the game. And us, the ones who have been here since a long time, are the only ones punished.
Right now we're on the hype train, everything is 40 cards right now (fuck, even saw a quest pirate warrior which has 0 sense lol), but eventually this'll get fixed. Either now, or either with the next expansion and future ones.
That's what I think. What do you guys think? I really hope this is a response for fixing dumb face decks and in the near future they stop printing support for that, so we don't need 40 decks forever in Standard. Agro decks were a lot more fun when you had to be cautious about board clears and maximizing the value of everything so that every little boy counts, or use fancy combos. That's fun and interactive. Playing a weapon and dealing 4890352 damage in turn 4? Nope, that's not. At least for me.
Prince Renathal has certainly slowed the meta, probably more so than any single card ever printed. I enjoy playing slower decks, so it’s fun while everybody is figuring where the tiers stand. Problematically, 40 health may have the consequence of weakening aggro decks to the point where Blizzard has to develop cards that are specifically balanced to pressure this new higher health total in order to make those archetypes appealing. This, of course, would be bad because Hearthstone is fundamentally still a 30 health game; especially once Prince Renathal is no longer free for everyone.
I tell you what will happen: budget decks are dead.
When you have to include 40 cards in a deck it'll increase dramatically the use of Legendary and Epic cards.
After 2-3 meta shifts many players won't be able to keep up crafting all the needed cards. And the excitement will fade when they play 25 minute games only to lose.
problem is that it brings back all those dumb Quest Decks. All Quests been stupid idea, because they totally limit creativity if you follow a given way.
If they don't nerf Celestial Alignment, both Standard and Wild will totally convert into a Druid sewer.
Other than the Celestial Alignment problem and the Quest Mage problem in Wild, the 40 card meta has been good to me.
I have been playing 40 card Questline + Copper Collosal Hunter in wild, and my goal every game is to get Tavish Hero power to zero to summon 0 mana Huffers many times a turn. This deck loves Quest Mage because Hunter has Flare, and the Quest Mage will need to provide their own minions to First Flame/Second Flame because early turns I will be busy using Rapid Fire on their face. So I am playing maybe the only deck that loves seeing Quest Mage.
If they don't nerf Celestial Alignment, both Standard and Wild will totally convert into a Druid sewer.
Other than the Celestial Alignment problem and the Quest Mage problem in Wild, the 40 card meta has been good to me.
I have been playing 40 card Questline + Copper Collosal Hunter in wild, and my goal every game is to get Tavish Hero power to zero to summon 0 mana Huffers many times a turn. This deck loves Quest Mage because Hunter has Flare, and the Quest Mage will need to provide their own minions to First Flame/Second Flame because early turns I will be busy using Rapid Fire on their face. So I am playing maybe the only deck that loves seeing Quest Mage.
Mind sharing a list? I'd like to see how it works.
I HATE quest mage in Wild. probably the most idiotic and unfun deck ever created.
I don't understand when they banned warlock cards in Wild because it was too strong and unfun for the opponent, but I guess having no turn is fun in their eyes.
If they don't nerf Celestial Alignment, both Standard and Wild will totally convert into a Druid sewer.
Other than the Celestial Alignment problem and the Quest Mage problem in Wild, the 40 card meta has been good to me.
I have been playing 40 card Questline + Copper Collosal Hunter in wild, and my goal every game is to get Tavish Hero power to zero to summon 0 mana Huffers many times a turn. This deck loves Quest Mage because Hunter has Flare, and the Quest Mage will need to provide their own minions to First Flame/Second Flame because early turns I will be busy using Rapid Fire on their face. So I am playing maybe the only deck that loves seeing Quest Mage.
Mind sharing a list? I'd like to see how it works.
I HATE quest mage in Wild. probably the most idiotic and unfun deck ever created.
I don't understand when they banned warlock cards in Wild because it was too strong and unfun for the opponent, but I guess having no turn is fun in their eyes.
I tell you what will happen: budget decks are dead.
When you have to include 40 cards in a deck it'll increase dramatically the use of Legendary and Epic cards.
After 2-3 meta shifts many players won't be able to keep up crafting all the needed cards. And the excitement will fade when they play 25 minute games only to lose.
I don't think so. My point is that it isn't that everyone is playing 40 card decks. Everyone is EXPERIMENTING with 40 card decks. We didn't reached a point were agro counters appeared. An an agro deck will never EVER use 40 cards unless something VERY crazy is going on (which I'd love lol)
I really don't think also that games have gotten longer. There are the same decks. They win the same. 40 cards didn't introduced almost any variance in the time per game. Sure, now we have less agro. But as I said before, that's to blame curiosity and experimentation, and not finding out yet the right agro answer. Once some pro gets bored of 40 health and decides to counter them, things will start changing quickly. The mechanic, lets wait one or two weeks more.
I liked the idea of renathal but I think a flat buff to 40hp should have been done to everyone because of the power creep. Renathal should have just given you the power to have 40 cards.
I liked the idea of renathal but I think a flat buff to 40hp should have been done to everyone because of the power creep. Renathal should have just given you the power to have 40 cards.
Yes, I also agree that anyways it could have been the same if they did that. To me it feels ok to have it standard for 2 years and leaving it to be in Wild. But having this permanently would also be nice.
I feel like online discussion of Hearthstone leans really heavily in favor of control -- of the entirety of Hearthstone's playerbase is likely very diverse in opinion on deck preference, but people who flock to YouTube comments or forums like this are usually Control players. I could throw out some guesses regarding demographic; people who have more time to play longer Hearthstone games also probably have that free time to spend watching Hearthstone on YouTube etc. I prefer playing aggro, but I see the value in a balanced meta as the best kind. Each archetype has an important role in keeping another in check. The classic rock>paper>scissors at a conceptual level.
I worry that Renethal may actually be the worst possible thing that could have happened to Hearthstone. I've been wrong before, and I am a dramatic bitch, but I have reasons.
It's been mentioned here before, but if (hypothetically) 50% of the Standard meta becomes Renethal decks, that means that people need to invest into 10 more cards. People aren't filling those slots with garbage, they're using the next best cards available to their deck. Higher quality cards in slower decks tend to be higher rarity, the epics and legends. Even the fun cards, the off-meta Renethal decks people will want to play, will involve like 5 Legends because those cards tend to be the most fun, impactful, and interesting to build around. Hearthstone becomes, as a result, more expensive to play. Somebody who wants to play Control is now highly disadvantaged unless they buy in; while Renethal may be free, the other cards in your deck most likely aren't. Aggro was popular for a large variety of reasons. Hearthstone is widely designed to be faster paced, to keep players attention between shorter and more exciting games that you can play on your break at work, or on the toilet. Devs leaning into aggro made it strong, and desirable to play. On top of this, aggro was cheap and accessible. Commons and Rares made up a bulk of aggro decks, and games could be completed quickly for people with busy schedules. Aggro, to the chagrin of Combo players everywhere, is the best thing for the largest demographic of Hearthstone players. TLDR; the game becomes more expensive for anybody who wants to compete *if Renethal decks are the strongest available option*.
The effect that Renethal could have on aggro in and of itself could be a net negative for the game as a whole. If aggro dies (and I do mean *if* it dies, Renethal has been out for all of 2 days so I won't conclude either way) I think that that's a terrible thing. Because once Aggro decks become a non-element, Control decks are now running mostly into Control mirrors. That might not be such a bad thing for people who like the grindy value matches, but competitive Hearthstone players are Spikes, and what I think will probably happen is that those 10 additional cards convert from Control additives to a Combo package. Combo is the most effective way to beat Control, after all, so it makes sense that in order to combat the mirrors, all Control decks pivot into Combo/Control in order to compete. The game then becomes two slow decks racing to see who hits their combo first. And, in my opinion, that sounds boring as hell. And if those changes make Aggro relevant again, the game will become a cycle of: Combo Control Mirrors > Control+ Mirrors to keep Aggro dead > Combo Control Mirrors > Next Set Release.
This is all purely speculative, and I'd own up to being wrong if I was proven wrong. But an additional 10 Health is a hurdle I'm uncertain Aggro decks will be able to overcome as decklists become more refined. For every draw card an Aggro deck includes so they don't run out of steam, that's a threat they have to drop. I don't see the math working out for Aggro at all tbh.
Some people will be thrilled about this, and in fairness I'm glad Control players can get their time in the sun! Aggro historically has been a dominant force in the game, I remember very VERY few metas where Control had the crown. Though recently a Control deck was so strong it got like, 4 or 5 nerfs? Let them eat cake imo. But I think there'll need to be very relevant changes after a while, because one-third of Hearthstone vanishing will do a lot of damage to people's willingness to play it. And why come back to Hearthstone when there're other, better TCG's and CCG's out there?
Just my thoughts. Wanted the chance to share them on here, so I'm grateful for the thread.
I feel like online discussion of Hearthstone leans really heavily in favor of control -- of the entirety of Hearthstone's playerbase is likely very diverse in opinion on deck preference, but people who flock to YouTube comments or forums like this are usually Control players. I could throw out some guesses regarding demographic; people who have more time to play longer Hearthstone games also probably have that free time to spend watching Hearthstone on YouTube etc. I prefer playing aggro, but I see the value in a balanced meta as the best kind. Each archetype has an important role in keeping another in check. The classic rock>paper>scissors at a conceptual level.
I worry that Renethal may actually be the worst possible thing that could have happened to Hearthstone. I've been wrong before, and I am a dramatic bitch, but I have reasons.
It's been mentioned here before, but if (hypothetically) 50% of the Standard meta becomes Renethal decks, that means that people need to invest into 10 more cards. People aren't filling those slots with garbage, they're using the next best cards available to their deck. Higher quality cards in slower decks tend to be higher rarity, the epics and legends. Even the fun cards, the off-meta Renethal decks people will want to play, will involve like 5 Legends because those cards tend to be the most fun, impactful, and interesting to build around. Hearthstone becomes, as a result, more expensive to play. Somebody who wants to play Control is now highly disadvantaged unless they buy in; while Renethal may be free, the other cards in your deck most likely aren't. Aggro was popular for a large variety of reasons. Hearthstone is widely designed to be faster paced, to keep players attention between shorter and more exciting games that you can play on your break at work, or on the toilet. Devs leaning into aggro made it strong, and desirable to play. On top of this, aggro was cheap and accessible. Commons and Rares made up a bulk of aggro decks, and games could be completed quickly for people with busy schedules. Aggro, to the chagrin of Combo players everywhere, is the best thing for the largest demographic of Hearthstone players. TLDR; the game becomes more expensive for anybody who wants to compete *if Renethal decks are the strongest available option*.
The effect that Renethal could have on aggro in and of itself could be a net negative for the game as a whole. If aggro dies (and I do mean *if* it dies, Renethal has been out for all of 2 days so I won't conclude either way) I think that that's a terrible thing. Because once Aggro decks become a non-element, Control decks are now running mostly into Control mirrors. That might not be such a bad thing for people who like the grindy value matches, but competitive Hearthstone players are Spikes, and what I think will probably happen is that those 10 additional cards convert from Control additives to a Combo package. Combo is the most effective way to beat Control, after all, so it makes sense that in order to combat the mirrors, all Control decks pivot into Combo/Control in order to compete. The game then becomes two slow decks racing to see who hits their combo first. And, in my opinion, that sounds boring as hell. And if those changes make Aggro relevant again, the game will become a cycle of: Combo Control Mirrors > Control+ Mirrors to keep Aggro dead > Combo Control Mirrors > Next Set Release.
This is all purely speculative, and I'd own up to being wrong if I was proven wrong. But an additional 10 Health is a hurdle I'm uncertain Aggro decks will be able to overcome as decklists become more refined. For every draw card an Aggro deck includes so they don't run out of steam, that's a threat they have to drop. I don't see the math working out for Aggro at all tbh.
Some people will be thrilled about this, and in fairness I'm glad Control players can get their time in the sun! Aggro historically has been a dominant force in the game, I remember very VERY few metas where Control had the crown. Though recently a Control deck was so strong it got like, 4 or 5 nerfs? Let them eat cake imo. But I think there'll need to be very relevant changes after a while, because one-third of Hearthstone vanishing will do a lot of damage to people's willingness to play it. And why come back to Hearthstone when there're other, better TCG's and CCG's out there?
Just my thoughts. Wanted the chance to share them on here, so I'm grateful for the thread.
I disagree, Renathal indeed dismantles agro decks based solely on quick face damage like DH or Quest Hunter, having more health doesn't guarantees you're going to have removal. Yes, it makes it statistically more probable, but it doesn't. Efficient board generation decks will still be viable and will probably still kick Renathal deck asses. I do agree that agro disappearing is totally bad for the game. Agro needs to be there. I like all kind of decks, I played agro, combo, midrange, control and even meme decks with no sense lol. All serve a purpose.
What needs to be done is actually increase the ceiling of the game a little bit. Lets be honest, you can't play around an insane amount of direct damage unless you have extreme heal or dumb armor generation (which was the current strategy). That play style is toxic, we have seen it before a lot. Having more life from start is not equal to having an entire deck for generating armor and healing. So, a play style with not so many counters what finally does is lowering the ceiling of the game. How many times have you lost against a face hunter or DH that you visually saw counting poorly, making trades when he clearly didn't needed to do it so? It's something that happens. And it's to blame the abusive amount of face damage we have...
TLDR, IMO Renathal is the clean solution for the problem of too much face damage.
This! So tired to play against that bullshit deck. It should really be at least 10 mana, or they should somehow change the card, which makes your nature spell 2 mana cheaper.
I feel like online discussion of Hearthstone leans really heavily in favor of control -- of the entirety of Hearthstone's playerbase is likely very diverse in opinion on deck preference, but people who flock to YouTube comments or forums like this are usually Control players. I could throw out some guesses regarding demographic; people who have more time to play longer Hearthstone games also probably have that free time to spend watching Hearthstone on YouTube etc. I prefer playing aggro, but I see the value in a balanced meta as the best kind. Each archetype has an important role in keeping another in check. The classic rock>paper>scissors at a conceptual level.
I worry that Renethal may actually be the worst possible thing that could have happened to Hearthstone. I've been wrong before, and I am a dramatic bitch, but I have reasons.
It's been mentioned here before, but if (hypothetically) 50% of the Standard meta becomes Renethal decks, that means that people need to invest into 10 more cards. People aren't filling those slots with garbage, they're using the next best cards available to their deck. Higher quality cards in slower decks tend to be higher rarity, the epics and legends. Even the fun cards, the off-meta Renethal decks people will want to play, will involve like 5 Legends because those cards tend to be the most fun, impactful, and interesting to build around. Hearthstone becomes, as a result, more expensive to play. Somebody who wants to play Control is now highly disadvantaged unless they buy in; while Renethal may be free, the other cards in your deck most likely aren't. Aggro was popular for a large variety of reasons. Hearthstone is widely designed to be faster paced, to keep players attention between shorter and more exciting games that you can play on your break at work, or on the toilet. Devs leaning into aggro made it strong, and desirable to play. On top of this, aggro was cheap and accessible. Commons and Rares made up a bulk of aggro decks, and games could be completed quickly for people with busy schedules. Aggro, to the chagrin of Combo players everywhere, is the best thing for the largest demographic of Hearthstone players. TLDR; the game becomes more expensive for anybody who wants to compete *if Renethal decks are the strongest available option*.
The effect that Renethal could have on aggro in and of itself could be a net negative for the game as a whole. If aggro dies (and I do mean *if* it dies, Renethal has been out for all of 2 days so I won't conclude either way) I think that that's a terrible thing. Because once Aggro decks become a non-element, Control decks are now running mostly into Control mirrors. That might not be such a bad thing for people who like the grindy value matches, but competitive Hearthstone players are Spikes, and what I think will probably happen is that those 10 additional cards convert from Control additives to a Combo package. Combo is the most effective way to beat Control, after all, so it makes sense that in order to combat the mirrors, all Control decks pivot into Combo/Control in order to compete. The game then becomes two slow decks racing to see who hits their combo first. And, in my opinion, that sounds boring as hell. And if those changes make Aggro relevant again, the game will become a cycle of: Combo Control Mirrors > Control+ Mirrors to keep Aggro dead > Combo Control Mirrors > Next Set Release.
This is all purely speculative, and I'd own up to being wrong if I was proven wrong. But an additional 10 Health is a hurdle I'm uncertain Aggro decks will be able to overcome as decklists become more refined. For every draw card an Aggro deck includes so they don't run out of steam, that's a threat they have to drop. I don't see the math working out for Aggro at all tbh.
Some people will be thrilled about this, and in fairness I'm glad Control players can get their time in the sun! Aggro historically has been a dominant force in the game, I remember very VERY few metas where Control had the crown. Though recently a Control deck was so strong it got like, 4 or 5 nerfs? Let them eat cake imo. But I think there'll need to be very relevant changes after a while, because one-third of Hearthstone vanishing will do a lot of damage to people's willingness to play it. And why come back to Hearthstone when there're other, better TCG's and CCG's out there?
Just my thoughts. Wanted the chance to share them on here, so I'm grateful for the thread.
I really hate that dumb feature this site has were they won't let you edit your messages sometimes lol.
Actually was trying to say that it vanquishes direct face damage decks, but not so much with agro based on board. Just wanted to say that also apart from what I said before haha.
I disagree, Renathal indeed dismantles agro decks based solely on quick face damage like DH or Quest Hunter, having more health doesn't guarantees you're going to have removal. Yes, it makes it statistically more probable, but it doesn't. Efficient board generation decks will still be viable and will probably still kick Renathal deck asses. I do agree that agro disappearing is totally bad for the game. Agro needs to be there. I like all kind of decks, I played agro, combo, midrange, control and even meme decks with no sense lol. All serve a purpose.
What needs to be done is actually increase the ceiling of the game a little bit. Lets be honest, you can't play around an insane amount of direct damage unless you have extreme heal or dumb armor generation (which was the current strategy). That play style is toxic, we have seen it before a lot. Having more life from start is not equal to having an entire deck for generating armor and healing. So, a play style with not so many counters what finally does is lowering the ceiling of the game. How many times have you lost against a face hunter or DH that you visually saw counting poorly, making trades when he clearly didn't needed to do it so? It's something that happens. And it's to blame the abusive amount of face damage we have...
TLDR, IMO Renathal is the clean solution for the problem of too much face damage.
I agree that decks which pump ridiculous amounts of damage to the face are problematic. Mine Rogue, Curselock, Garrote Rogue, various Mages, etc. You're right that lifegain is the only way to mitigate those strategies. But I don't really consider decks like that "aggro". If a deck can deal 20+ damage to you in a single turn from hand, I would consider it a combo. Popping off with a million spells and hero powering with Quest Hunter is essentially a linear combo, Smite + Sunken Vessel is a two-card combo, Brann + 2 Curse Battlecries is a 3 card combo, etc.
Aggro, to me, plays on board and hits you with dudes until you die. Traditional Face Hunter, most Demon Hunters, Pirate Warrior, Aggro Shaman decks, etc. And when it takes 3 more turns or so to put your opponent to 30 Health, that presents an issue for those decks. Anecdotally, I finally started playing Demon Hunter now that I have a skin that isn't an angry guy. I've got a really fun Token Demon Hunter deck in Wild that I play casually because I like the strategy. The extra turns it takes to kill my opponent gives them enough time to put me on the back foot, wipe my board, and keep me from getting through fairly consistently. Now I know this isn't the best version of the deck, and I'm not the best pilot, but that's what I've experienced.
I guess Aggro can also be like Questline Shaman, since it'll play kinda like Mono Red Burn in MTG. Tossing burn spells face and attacking with dinky creatures is aggro. But 10 health is a lot to a burn/aggro player.
I think it's easy for Control Players to believe that 10 Health isn't that much because the style of game they play is different from Aggro. Every Control-Lock ever would happily trade 10 Health for 5 cards. But the gap is huge for Aggro to clear early. Turns 1 through 4 they just don't have access to that kind of over-the-top damage. And after that point, if your opponent isn't already on the back foot, it's so easy to lose all your tempo and the game.
TLDR: yeah decks that deal 20+ damage from hand are toxic and difficult to interact with. but i think a better solution is preventing those strategies from being dominant. Not making cards that enable those strategies to flourish. Giving all Control decks more starting health seems inelegant, and dances around the actual problem of designing cards that make toxic strategies work. Also, even if this is the best response, it's still an expensive one.
Before anything, this is a serious thread, not for saltiness, and our opinions may differ. If that's the case, discuss it like an adult.
IMO, this game has fallen into a trap of face decks that are hard to counter and tend to turn the meta into a rock-paper-scissors, where if you are deck A and face deck B, you lose. Direct damage has little to no counter other than extreme healing/armoring or this. Extreme healing and endless armor are quite toxic and boring to the game. Increasing health is the only possible way (apart from deleting cards from existence, which'll never happen), plus, creating decks where that 40 cards restriction is in fact a good thing (Lady Prestor I'm looking at you lol) could be a good thing for creativity.
What do I think will happen in the end with 40 health? Agro decks will change to board/token decks, like old Zoos. And more midrange deck will start flourishing. Those agro decks can be countered in a more healthy way (board clears, building your own board, taunts), and are A LOT more punishing. There is very little punish to face and direct damage, as I said before. I'm tired of wanting to try some deck and losing to some random folk who doesn't even knows how to play his deck (due to his mistakes), but wins anyways. Game is no fun when the opponent ignores you and throws you spells and hits you in the face. Sure, those players may think "this is fun". But eventually they'll get tired and leave the game. And us, the ones who have been here since a long time, are the only ones punished.
Right now we're on the hype train, everything is 40 cards right now (fuck, even saw a quest pirate warrior which has 0 sense lol), but eventually this'll get fixed. Either now, or either with the next expansion and future ones.
That's what I think. What do you guys think? I really hope this is a response for fixing dumb face decks and in the near future they stop printing support for that, so we don't need 40 decks forever in Standard. Agro decks were a lot more fun when you had to be cautious about board clears and maximizing the value of everything so that every little boy counts, or use fancy combos. That's fun and interactive. Playing a weapon and dealing 4890352 damage in turn 4? Nope, that's not. At least for me.
Prince Renathal has certainly slowed the meta, probably more so than any single card ever printed. I enjoy playing slower decks, so it’s fun while everybody is figuring where the tiers stand.
Problematically, 40 health may have the consequence of weakening aggro decks to the point where Blizzard has to develop cards that are specifically balanced to pressure this new higher health total in order to make those archetypes appealing. This, of course, would be bad because Hearthstone is fundamentally still a 30 health game; especially once Prince Renathal is no longer free for everyone.
I tell you what will happen: budget decks are dead.
When you have to include 40 cards in a deck it'll increase dramatically the use of Legendary and Epic cards.
After 2-3 meta shifts many players won't be able to keep up crafting all the needed cards. And the excitement will fade when they play 25 minute games only to lose.
As a big spells mage guy. It's like I've been training for this very moment...
problem is that it brings back all those dumb Quest Decks. All Quests been stupid idea, because they totally limit creativity if you follow a given way.
If they don't nerf Celestial Alignment, both Standard and Wild will totally convert into a Druid sewer.
Other than the Celestial Alignment problem and the Quest Mage problem in Wild, the 40 card meta has been good to me.
I have been playing 40 card Questline + Copper Collosal Hunter in wild, and my goal every game is to get Tavish Hero power to zero to summon 0 mana Huffers many times a turn. This deck loves Quest Mage because Hunter has Flare, and the Quest Mage will need to provide their own minions to First Flame/Second Flame because early turns I will be busy using Rapid Fire on their face. So I am playing maybe the only deck that loves seeing Quest Mage.
Mind sharing a list? I'd like to see how it works.
I HATE quest mage in Wild. probably the most idiotic and unfun deck ever created.
I don't understand when they banned warlock cards in Wild because it was too strong and unfun for the opponent, but I guess having no turn is fun in their eyes.
gimme 30 mins, sure
I don't think so. My point is that it isn't that everyone is playing 40 card decks. Everyone is EXPERIMENTING with 40 card decks. We didn't reached a point were agro counters appeared. An an agro deck will never EVER use 40 cards unless something VERY crazy is going on (which I'd love lol)
I really don't think also that games have gotten longer. There are the same decks. They win the same. 40 cards didn't introduced almost any variance in the time per game. Sure, now we have less agro. But as I said before, that's to blame curiosity and experimentation, and not finding out yet the right agro answer. Once some pro gets bored of 40 health and decides to counter them, things will start changing quickly. The mechanic, lets wait one or two weeks more.
Renathal is hot garbage. Even the most consistent deck, druid Prestor is hot thrash. 10 hp is nothing.
Quest Mage Murderer Hunter
https://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/1411623-quest-mage-murderer-hunte
My opinion so feel free to disagree.
I liked the idea of renathal but I think a flat buff to 40hp should have been done to everyone because of the power creep. Renathal should have just given you the power to have 40 cards.
Yes, I also agree that anyways it could have been the same if they did that. To me it feels ok to have it standard for 2 years and leaving it to be in Wild. But having this permanently would also be nice.
I feel like online discussion of Hearthstone leans really heavily in favor of control -- of the entirety of Hearthstone's playerbase is likely very diverse in opinion on deck preference, but people who flock to YouTube comments or forums like this are usually Control players. I could throw out some guesses regarding demographic; people who have more time to play longer Hearthstone games also probably have that free time to spend watching Hearthstone on YouTube etc. I prefer playing aggro, but I see the value in a balanced meta as the best kind. Each archetype has an important role in keeping another in check. The classic rock>paper>scissors at a conceptual level.
I worry that Renethal may actually be the worst possible thing that could have happened to Hearthstone. I've been wrong before, and I am a dramatic bitch, but I have reasons.
It's been mentioned here before, but if (hypothetically) 50% of the Standard meta becomes Renethal decks, that means that people need to invest into 10 more cards. People aren't filling those slots with garbage, they're using the next best cards available to their deck. Higher quality cards in slower decks tend to be higher rarity, the epics and legends. Even the fun cards, the off-meta Renethal decks people will want to play, will involve like 5 Legends because those cards tend to be the most fun, impactful, and interesting to build around. Hearthstone becomes, as a result, more expensive to play. Somebody who wants to play Control is now highly disadvantaged unless they buy in; while Renethal may be free, the other cards in your deck most likely aren't. Aggro was popular for a large variety of reasons. Hearthstone is widely designed to be faster paced, to keep players attention between shorter and more exciting games that you can play on your break at work, or on the toilet. Devs leaning into aggro made it strong, and desirable to play. On top of this, aggro was cheap and accessible. Commons and Rares made up a bulk of aggro decks, and games could be completed quickly for people with busy schedules. Aggro, to the chagrin of Combo players everywhere, is the best thing for the largest demographic of Hearthstone players. TLDR; the game becomes more expensive for anybody who wants to compete *if Renethal decks are the strongest available option*.
The effect that Renethal could have on aggro in and of itself could be a net negative for the game as a whole. If aggro dies (and I do mean *if* it dies, Renethal has been out for all of 2 days so I won't conclude either way) I think that that's a terrible thing. Because once Aggro decks become a non-element, Control decks are now running mostly into Control mirrors. That might not be such a bad thing for people who like the grindy value matches, but competitive Hearthstone players are Spikes, and what I think will probably happen is that those 10 additional cards convert from Control additives to a Combo package. Combo is the most effective way to beat Control, after all, so it makes sense that in order to combat the mirrors, all Control decks pivot into Combo/Control in order to compete. The game then becomes two slow decks racing to see who hits their combo first. And, in my opinion, that sounds boring as hell. And if those changes make Aggro relevant again, the game will become a cycle of: Combo Control Mirrors > Control+ Mirrors to keep Aggro dead > Combo Control Mirrors > Next Set Release.
This is all purely speculative, and I'd own up to being wrong if I was proven wrong. But an additional 10 Health is a hurdle I'm uncertain Aggro decks will be able to overcome as decklists become more refined. For every draw card an Aggro deck includes so they don't run out of steam, that's a threat they have to drop. I don't see the math working out for Aggro at all tbh.
Some people will be thrilled about this, and in fairness I'm glad Control players can get their time in the sun! Aggro historically has been a dominant force in the game, I remember very VERY few metas where Control had the crown. Though recently a Control deck was so strong it got like, 4 or 5 nerfs? Let them eat cake imo. But I think there'll need to be very relevant changes after a while, because one-third of Hearthstone vanishing will do a lot of damage to people's willingness to play it. And why come back to Hearthstone when there're other, better TCG's and CCG's out there?
Just my thoughts. Wanted the chance to share them on here, so I'm grateful for the thread.
please don't bully my son
Edit
I disagree, Renathal indeed dismantles agro decks based solely on quick face damage like DH or Quest Hunter, having more health doesn't guarantees you're going to have removal. Yes, it makes it statistically more probable, but it doesn't. Efficient board generation decks will still be viable and will probably still kick Renathal deck asses. I do agree that agro disappearing is totally bad for the game. Agro needs to be there. I like all kind of decks, I played agro, combo, midrange, control and even meme decks with no sense lol. All serve a purpose.
What needs to be done is actually increase the ceiling of the game a little bit. Lets be honest, you can't play around an insane amount of direct damage unless you have extreme heal or dumb armor generation (which was the current strategy). That play style is toxic, we have seen it before a lot. Having more life from start is not equal to having an entire deck for generating armor and healing. So, a play style with not so many counters what finally does is lowering the ceiling of the game. How many times have you lost against a face hunter or DH that you visually saw counting poorly, making trades when he clearly didn't needed to do it so? It's something that happens. And it's to blame the abusive amount of face damage we have...
TLDR, IMO Renathal is the clean solution for the problem of too much face damage.
This! So tired to play against that bullshit deck. It should really be at least 10 mana, or they should somehow change the card, which makes your nature spell 2 mana cheaper.
I really hate that dumb feature this site has were they won't let you edit your messages sometimes lol.
Actually was trying to say that it vanquishes direct face damage decks, but not so much with agro based on board. Just wanted to say that also apart from what I said before haha.
I agree that decks which pump ridiculous amounts of damage to the face are problematic. Mine Rogue, Curselock, Garrote Rogue, various Mages, etc. You're right that lifegain is the only way to mitigate those strategies. But I don't really consider decks like that "aggro". If a deck can deal 20+ damage to you in a single turn from hand, I would consider it a combo. Popping off with a million spells and hero powering with Quest Hunter is essentially a linear combo, Smite + Sunken Vessel is a two-card combo, Brann + 2 Curse Battlecries is a 3 card combo, etc.
Aggro, to me, plays on board and hits you with dudes until you die. Traditional Face Hunter, most Demon Hunters, Pirate Warrior, Aggro Shaman decks, etc. And when it takes 3 more turns or so to put your opponent to 30 Health, that presents an issue for those decks. Anecdotally, I finally started playing Demon Hunter now that I have a skin that isn't an angry guy. I've got a really fun Token Demon Hunter deck in Wild that I play casually because I like the strategy. The extra turns it takes to kill my opponent gives them enough time to put me on the back foot, wipe my board, and keep me from getting through fairly consistently. Now I know this isn't the best version of the deck, and I'm not the best pilot, but that's what I've experienced.
I guess Aggro can also be like Questline Shaman, since it'll play kinda like Mono Red Burn in MTG. Tossing burn spells face and attacking with dinky creatures is aggro. But 10 health is a lot to a burn/aggro player.
I think it's easy for Control Players to believe that 10 Health isn't that much because the style of game they play is different from Aggro. Every Control-Lock ever would happily trade 10 Health for 5 cards. But the gap is huge for Aggro to clear early. Turns 1 through 4 they just don't have access to that kind of over-the-top damage. And after that point, if your opponent isn't already on the back foot, it's so easy to lose all your tempo and the game.
TLDR: yeah decks that deal 20+ damage from hand are toxic and difficult to interact with. but i think a better solution is preventing those strategies from being dominant. Not making cards that enable those strategies to flourish. Giving all Control decks more starting health seems inelegant, and dances around the actual problem of designing cards that make toxic strategies work. Also, even if this is the best response, it's still an expensive one.
please don't bully my son
P2w tactics.
yo.. they just want your money. That’s it.