- It's nearly impossible to keep a minion out on the field due to Fireball, Frostbolt, and Polymorph. Just the threat of these cards, and Mirror Entity, being used makes it difficult to play a minion.
- If you did manage to keep 1 minion on the field, the Mage can just use Fireblast to easily swing trades in their favor. It also completely counters Divine Shield, which would have helped you deal with their multiple burn spells, and synergizes extremely well with minions who have Enrage effects.
- If you did manage to keep 2+ minions on the field, the Mage can just wipe the board with Flamestrike and Arcane Explosion (bonus points if they have minions with +Spell Power). They can get even more AoE from neutral minions like Knife Juggler and Wild Pyromancer.
- If you try to use your own removal, the Mage can just negate it with Counterspell and/or Spellbender. On top of that, you'll probably run out of removal before a Mage does.
Ok, mage is stong in several ways as you have outlined, but some points to consider: 1. You speak of 1 for 1 removal such as fireball and polymorph, it is worth bearing in mind that this gains the mage no real advantage, if you play a yeti then the mage fireballs or polymorphs it, you are not falling behind, you are not losing card advantage. Mages do have strong board wipes, however arcane explosion is near ineffective and flamestrike is mana expensive to the point where most deck simply cannot afford to run it. 2. mage minions are few and appalling, as such they need strong spells to overcome this weakness, if their spells were not powerful then mage simply would not function as a class.
Finally it is worth bearing in mind (that in part for the reasons above) mage is currently considered to be one of the least viable classes in competitive play!
Ok, mage is stong in several ways as you have outlined, but some points to consider: 1. You speak of 1 for 1 removal such as fireball and polymorph, it is worth bearing in mind that this gains the mage no real advantage, if you play a yeti then the mage fireballs or polymorphs it, you are not falling behind, you are not losing card advantage. Mages do have strong board wipes, however arcane explosion is near ineffective and flamestrike is mana expensive to the point where most deck simply cannot afford to run it. 2. mage minions are few and appalling, as such they need strong spells to overcome this weakness, if their spells were not powerful then mage simply would not function as a class.
Finally it is worth bearing in mind (that in part for the reasons above) mage is currently considered to be one of the least viable classes in competitive play!
None of these cards are outright bad; Ethereal Arcanist is only the "worst" on the list because he's a bit situational. He's extremely efficient when used with multiple Secrets though and Mages have plenty of strong ones. It's not as if he only works in specialized or gimmicky decks.
You also have to keep in mind that all spell cards are unique to different classes, compared to only a handful of minions. It doesn't matter if you have "weak" class minions when you can just pick from a large, viable list of neutral minions instead.
Mages are cool, but making them consistently work like you described is tough. Mages have strong spells because their class minion cards suck. The best two are Mana Worm and Apprentice. That's a 1/3 with buff up possibilities, but only 3 health ever, and a 3/2. Every class has a way of dealing 2-3 dmg directly without ever worrying about taunts. Sure they have Flamestrike, but it can't happen until turn 6 with coin, and turn 7 without. You know this. This is not surprising when they flamestrike your board full of minions on those turns. Same goes for spells like Pyro. Oh look it's turn 10, I can get blasted for 10 any turn now. Unfortunately as far as dmg per mana goes, that spell sucks. 1dmg per mana isn't great. Fireball yeilds 6dmg for 4, you can combo a frostbolt + ice lance for 3 and get 7 dmg. And due to those spells being lower mana cost you can combo them into a +spell dmg minion. Now you get +1 more dmg per spell, and a minion on the board. Bloodmage + Geomancer + Fireball + Frostbolt = 13dmg for 10 mana and two creatures on the field, one of which offers card draw. Remove Geomancer and sub in an ice lance and you end up with 16dmg for 9mana and card draw. The major difference is setting up the kill prior to the finisher and drawing the cards. Where as Pyro you just draw and launch. But with that much set up other classes can yield 20+ dmg.
Mage has cool tools, but not the most effective when weighed against other classes.
You're completely overestimating the Mage class. I love Mage, it's personally my favorite class but they're hardly unbeatable. You listed the options at a Mage's disposal, and you more or less listed ALL of them. There's no Mage that's running as many spells as you listed. Sure, Mages have options for removal like you listed such as Fireball, Frostbolt, and Polymorph but you can only use those spells a maximum of TWICE. If a Mage is using Fireball for removal then that's not good for them. Not to mention, Fireball and Polymorph are 4 mana each. How many minions can you have out by then? It may just be your particular class/deck that makes it seem like Mages are unbeatable, what are you currently running?
Ok, mage is stong in several ways as you have outlined, but some points to consider: 1. You speak of 1 for 1 removal such as fireball and polymorph, it is worth bearing in mind that this gains the mage no real advantage, if you play a yeti then the mage fireballs or polymorphs it, you are not falling behind, you are not losing card advantage. Mages do have strong board wipes, however arcane explosion is near ineffective and flamestrike is mana expensive to the point where most deck simply cannot afford to run it. 2. mage minions are few and appalling, as such they need strong spells to overcome this weakness, if their spells were not powerful then mage simply would not function as a class.
Finally it is worth bearing in mind (that in part for the reasons above) mage is currently considered to be one of the least viable classes in competitive play!
Hi, just a few points:
He's absolutely right when he talks about card removal and 1 for 1. So baiting a poly or a fireball is one of many strategies I've seen people use. Also keep in mind that the mage has just as many cards as you do, and when he uses a creature mitigating card, he is now down a card that can save him. If you get a good mage to play a fireball on a minion, you've just robbed him of one of his primary damaging spells. That was meant for the face, not for the creature, and you got it out. Same with Frost Bolt and Pyroblast.
I maintain that flame strike is valuable against zoo decks and decks that produce many creatures quickly (paladins and priests do this a lot, weirdly).
All that being said, mages do not play like your typical classes. Mage decks are usually not "play creature, use creature to damage opponent, buff creature/protect creature/combo with creatures". In my deck specifically, most of my creatures are designed to absorb your damage and your focus and control the board. If my creatures can keep your creatures in check or even dead, then I am going to win every single time. If you can overwhelm my creatures and my defenses before I am able to generate the damage I need, you'll win obviously.
Add me if you want, we can theory craft against mages and practice; that will at least give you some direct experience and feedback.
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Mage | Shaman Rysu #1314
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- It's nearly impossible to keep a minion out on the field due to Fireball, Frostbolt, and Polymorph. Just the threat of these cards, and Mirror Entity, being used makes it difficult to play a minion.
- If you did manage to keep 1 minion on the field, the Mage can just use Fireblast to easily swing trades in their favor. It also completely counters Divine Shield, which would have helped you deal with their multiple burn spells, and synergizes extremely well with minions who have Enrage effects.
- If you did manage to keep 2+ minions on the field, the Mage can just wipe the board with Flamestrike and Arcane Explosion (bonus points if they have minions with +Spell Power). They can get even more AoE from neutral minions like Knife Juggler and Wild Pyromancer.
- If you did manage to keep 1 or more minions on the field, the Mage can just shutdown or negate your attempts at attacking with cards like Frostbolt, Frost Nova, Blizzard, Water Elemental, Mirror Image, Vaporize, Cone of Cold, Ice Block, Ice Barrier, etc.
- If you try to use your own removal, the Mage can just negate it with Counterspell and/or Spellbender. On top of that, you'll probably run out of removal before a Mage does.
- Mages don't just throw around spells while ignoring their side of the field though, they have some pretty significant synergy with a number of minions. This is especially true for minions whose effects are triggered by spells like Mana Wyrm, Violet Teacher, Mana Addict, Wild Pyromancer, and Gadgetzan Auctioneer. Violet Teacher and Mirror Image both give further synergy with Knife Juggler, Sea Giant, Defender of Argus, Sunfury Protector, Dire Wolf Alpha, Flesheating Ghoul, Cult Master, Frostwolf Warlord, Raid Leader, etc.
Ok, mage is stong in several ways as you have outlined, but some points to consider:
1. You speak of 1 for 1 removal such as fireball and polymorph, it is worth bearing in mind that this gains the mage no real advantage, if you play a yeti then the mage fireballs or polymorphs it, you are not falling behind, you are not losing card advantage.
Mages do have strong board wipes, however arcane explosion is near ineffective and flamestrike is mana expensive to the point where most deck simply cannot afford to run it.
2. mage minions are few and appalling, as such they need strong spells to overcome this weakness, if their spells were not powerful then mage simply would not function as a class.
Finally it is worth bearing in mind (that in part for the reasons above) mage is currently considered to be one of the least viable classes in competitive play!
Assuming only 1 copy of each card:
- Warlocks have 11 minions and 2 tokens
- Hunters have 10 minions and 5 tokens
- Shamans have 8 minions and 6 tokens
- Priests have 7 minions and 1 token
- Warriors have 7 minions and 0 tokens
- Druids have 6 minions and 7-13 tokens
- Mages have 6 minions and 3 tokens
- Rogues have 6 minions and 1 token
- Paladins have 4 minions and 1+ tokens
*Not all of these minions are good*
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Mage minions = Sorcerer's Apprentice, Water Elemental, Mana Wyrm, Kirin Tor Mage, Ethereal Arcanist, and Archmage Antonidas.
Mage tokens = Spellbender and Mirror Image x2
-----------------------------------------------------------
None of these cards are outright bad; Ethereal Arcanist is only the "worst" on the list because he's a bit situational. He's extremely efficient when used with multiple Secrets though and Mages have plenty of strong ones. It's not as if he only works in specialized or gimmicky decks.
You also have to keep in mind that all spell cards are unique to different classes, compared to only a handful of minions. It doesn't matter if you have "weak" class minions when you can just pick from a large, viable list of neutral minions instead.
Mages are cool, but making them consistently work like you described is tough. Mages have strong spells because their class minion cards suck. The best two are Mana Worm and Apprentice. That's a 1/3 with buff up possibilities, but only 3 health ever, and a 3/2. Every class has a way of dealing 2-3 dmg directly without ever worrying about taunts. Sure they have Flamestrike, but it can't happen until turn 6 with coin, and turn 7 without. You know this. This is not surprising when they flamestrike your board full of minions on those turns. Same goes for spells like Pyro. Oh look it's turn 10, I can get blasted for 10 any turn now. Unfortunately as far as dmg per mana goes, that spell sucks. 1dmg per mana isn't great. Fireball yeilds 6dmg for 4, you can combo a frostbolt + ice lance for 3 and get 7 dmg. And due to those spells being lower mana cost you can combo them into a +spell dmg minion. Now you get +1 more dmg per spell, and a minion on the board. Bloodmage + Geomancer + Fireball + Frostbolt = 13dmg for 10 mana and two creatures on the field, one of which offers card draw. Remove Geomancer and sub in an ice lance and you end up with 16dmg for 9mana and card draw. The major difference is setting up the kill prior to the finisher and drawing the cards. Where as Pyro you just draw and launch. But with that much set up other classes can yield 20+ dmg.
Mage has cool tools, but not the most effective when weighed against other classes.
You're completely overestimating the Mage class. I love Mage, it's personally my favorite class but they're hardly unbeatable. You listed the options at a Mage's disposal, and you more or less listed ALL of them. There's no Mage that's running as many spells as you listed. Sure, Mages have options for removal like you listed such as Fireball, Frostbolt, and Polymorph but you can only use those spells a maximum of TWICE. If a Mage is using Fireball for removal then that's not good for them. Not to mention, Fireball and Polymorph are 4 mana each. How many minions can you have out by then? It may just be your particular class/deck that makes it seem like Mages are unbeatable, what are you currently running?
Hi, just a few points:
He's absolutely right when he talks about card removal and 1 for 1. So baiting a poly or a fireball is one of many strategies I've seen people use. Also keep in mind that the mage has just as many cards as you do, and when he uses a creature mitigating card, he is now down a card that can save him. If you get a good mage to play a fireball on a minion, you've just robbed him of one of his primary damaging spells. That was meant for the face, not for the creature, and you got it out. Same with Frost Bolt and Pyroblast.
I maintain that flame strike is valuable against zoo decks and decks that produce many creatures quickly (paladins and priests do this a lot, weirdly).
All that being said, mages do not play like your typical classes. Mage decks are usually not "play creature, use creature to damage opponent, buff creature/protect creature/combo with creatures". In my deck specifically, most of my creatures are designed to absorb your damage and your focus and control the board. If my creatures can keep your creatures in check or even dead, then I am going to win every single time. If you can overwhelm my creatures and my defenses before I am able to generate the damage I need, you'll win obviously.
Add me if you want, we can theory craft against mages and practice; that will at least give you some direct experience and feedback.
Mage | Shaman
Rysu #1314