Well, since we know that Blizzard has more data than anyone, all that proves is that metastats is more accurate than vicious syndicate.
That's not what I'm seeing, Vicious Syndicate doesn't look above rank 15. I'm inclined to think everyone's data is accurate, which means this 'hunter balance' excuse is only for noob ranks.
That's not what I'm seeing, Vicious Syndicate doesn't look above rank 15. I'm inclined to think everyone's data is accurate, which means this 'hunter balance' excuse is only for noob ranks.
Well, details aside, that's the whole point of what Donais was saying. He wants to look for a way to make Hunter competitive at the top ranks without making it too strong in the newbie zone. Hence my suggestion to bolster it with epics and legendaries that do not fit well in the same archetype as the budget decks. Kinda like the difference between Zoolock and Handlock.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
That's not what I'm seeing, Vicious Syndicate doesn't look above rank 15. I'm inclined to think everyone's data is accurate, which means this 'hunter balance' excuse is only for noob ranks.
Well, details aside, that's the whole point of what Donais was saying. He wants to look for a way to make Hunter competitive at the top ranks without making it too strong in the newbie zone. Hence my suggestion to bolster it with epics and legendaries that do not fit well in the same archetype as the budget decks. Kinda like the difference between Zoolock and Handlock.
That might work, although they're having trouble with the design space they left themselves for hunter it seems. My early impression is that the best Hunter decks now are a hybrid of midrange-control and the builds with 1 drops can struggle (ahem, druid, ahem), so maybe the next data reports will show what they're doing is working.
There will always be a worst class (Not sure Hunter has been the worst for as long as you say) and there is nothing wrong with that.
Sometimes a class will be one of the bottom half for a very long time only to shine again later. Examples:
Paladin before Secret Paladin
Priest before Operative
Rogue before Quest Rogue
LOL. You missed the most obvious one of all....Shaman. Shaman was AWFUL for a LONG time before the rise of aggro and then midrange Shamans which led to Shamanstone aka the 2nd worst meta in the history of the game (after Undertaker Hunterstone).
There will always be a worst class (Not sure Hunter has been the worst for as long as you say) and there is nothing wrong with that.
Sometimes a class will be one of the bottom half for a very long time only to shine again later. Examples:
Paladin before Secret Paladin
Priest before Operative
Rogue before Quest Rogue
LOL. You missed the most obvious one of all....Shaman. Shaman was AWFUL for a LONG time before the rise of aggro and then midrange Shamans which led to Shamanstone aka the 2nd worst meta in the history of the game (after Undertaker Hunterstone).
That's why they didn't made Toxic Arrow :"Give a minion poisonous and then deal 2 damage to it". It would've been extremely strong and also explosive bloat bat at least 3 mana. Also, every weapon class received a weapon this expansion but hunter has to struggle with 3 mana Fiery War Axe. As you can see, Rexxar is really strong and if he would've got some better tools hunter would dominate KFT easily. Also, if only Defile was in hunter class or Roll the Bones.. those seems more suitable for Hunter, while Toxic Arrow's text sounds just like a Warrior card...
Maybe Hunter is the worst class but it is by far the most fun class and this is why I like this class the most!
If the text said "give a minion poisonous and then deal 2 damage to it" nothing would change about the card. I think you're assuming it would kill the minion after giving it poisonous but that only happens if it said "make it deal 2 damage to itself" or something. Instead it would just give a minion poisonous and deal 2 damage.
The problem is that Hunter has been consistently weak for a while now. Why not Mage? Or Druid? Or Warrior?
There are 9 classes. They can't all be equally good all the time and they can't have an equal amount of time in the sun.
The balance of the game is its ever-changing nature.
Trust me: Hunter will be strong again and it will even dominate Standard again. We just don't know exactly when yet.
I understand that. But when is the last time Mage, Druid or Warrior were horrible? Hunter has been on the bottom for a while now. They need to make it strong again.
I wonder whether Blizzard is afraid to give Hunters the cards which could handle all the imba cards the other classes receive all the time.
Don't get me wrong, Hunter is the class with which I have the most win by far, and I really enjoy playing it even though since several expansions we didn't receive cards which would synergize with the Hunter heropower. Rat Pack, Kindly Grandma, Corpse Widow, these are all fantastic cards but it can't change the fact that certain op cards counter the whole class immediately.
For example Spreading Plague is extremely crushing for the Hunters, even if you don't have that big of a board, if you have 3 minions which is solid but not that great, the Druid can still Plague than play Innervate and the Taunt buffer minion he has which can win the game immediately. Hunter simply doesn't have a good board clear or hence a single target removal. But even if you would have a removal try to kill 3x 3x7 taunt minions. And this is just one card, I don't even want to get started with Defile which is always there for Handlock Warlock, hence the other removals.
Sorry if I come of as bitching about the class, I know many players hate Hunters, especially because they still have PTSD from the Face Hunter era, but I think we could have some love as well. If you see that a class in Tier 4-5 for 3 expansions you clearly did something wrong Blizzard.
To don't just make my post complaining I post the deck that I use. It's nothing spectacular, a bit above 50% winrate but still some op decks counter it hard with just 1-2 lucky draws. In case you have suggestions how it could be improved I am all ears, especially because I am interested in what my Hunter brothers are running atm.
Funny thing is that control reno hunter with the DK is pretty good in wild
The problem is that Hunter has been consistently weak for a while now. Why not Mage? Or Druid? Or Warrior?
There are 9 classes. They can't all be equally good all the time and they can't have an equal amount of time in the sun.
The balance of the game is its ever-changing nature.
Trust me: Hunter will be strong again and it will even dominate Standard again. We just don't know exactly when yet.
I understand that. But when is the last time Mage, Druid or Warrior were horrible? Hunter has been on the bottom for a while now. They need to make it strong again.
No they do not need that. Perhaps you want it but Blizzard don't need it. Not every class has to be equally good over a period of five years. That would be incredibly boring and predictable.
Well, let's just agree to disagree. I'm not saying it should be predictable, but it seems a little unfair for a certain class, or a group of classes to be strong for a long period of time, and another class to be weak for too long. I am not even saying "equally good" - just make a class relatively strong, not necessarily the best after it's been weak for a while. Warrior or Druid had multiple good archetypes for a long period of time. Hunter did not have one. What's the point of having 9 classes then, right?
Additionally, Priest and Warlock were weak for a short period of time and people complained like crazy every day. I don't want them to be weak for a long period of time either. I'd like to pick a class randomly every day and not feel like I am playing a joke of a class. Which "purify priest" used to be, and now hunter seems to be a class for rank 20-18 f2p players.
I started this topic and I still stand with my initial statements. However, I played quite a bit in Wild and the huge variaty there coupled with that almost no one plays makes Hunter quite good actually. I climbed from rank 15 to rank 4 with my Wild Hunter deck, also risen to rank 8 (and beyond) in Standard.
While Hunter is viable at lower ranks, the class itself is pretty weak still, I bet once I'll reach Legend I will barely see any success. We will see, next expansion should introduce good early minions and a removal. Or a cheap AoE minion which can be combod with Toxic Arrow.
The problem is that Hunter has been consistently weak for a while now. Why not Mage? Or Druid? Or Warrior?
There are 9 classes. They can't all be equally good all the time and they can't have an equal amount of time in the sun.
The balance of the game is its ever-changing nature.
Trust me: Hunter will be strong again and it will even dominate Standard again. We just don't know exactly when yet.
I understand that. But when is the last time Mage, Druid or Warrior were horrible? Hunter has been on the bottom for a while now. They need to make it strong again.
No they do not need that. Perhaps you want it but Blizzard don't need it. Not every class has to be equally good over a period of five years. That would be incredibly boring and predictable.
So youre saying the classes don't have to be balanced? You are suggesting absurdly bad game design.
The problem is that Hunter has been consistently weak for a while now. Why not Mage? Or Druid? Or Warrior?
There are 9 classes. They can't all be equally good all the time and they can't have an equal amount of time in the sun.
The balance of the game is its ever-changing nature.
Trust me: Hunter will be strong again and it will even dominate Standard again. We just don't know exactly when yet.
I understand that. But when is the last time Mage, Druid or Warrior were horrible? Hunter has been on the bottom for a while now. They need to make it strong again.
No they do not need that. Perhaps you want it but Blizzard don't need it. Not every class has to be equally good over a period of five years. That would be incredibly boring and predictable.
So youre saying the classes don't have to be balanced? You are suggesting absurdly bad game design.
Yes. Every expert knows this. Blizzard knows it, streamers know it, Wizards of the Coast know it and... I know it. Even though I would not call me an expert. Just someone who has seen it all in card games.
The game is balanced in the way that all classes will be strong at some point and weak at other points. No class will always be the strongest, no class will always be the weakest. Ebb and flow.
The game is balanced in the way that all classes will be strong at some point and weak at other points. No class will always be the strongest, no class will always be the weakest. Ebb and flow.
No it's freaking not dude, that's what we're talking about. Hunter is the perenial underdog meanwhile the same classes dominate the meta expansion after expansion. How long has it been since Hunter has had a tier one deck? Meanwhile mage and druid and priest get busted card after busted card expansion after expansion.
Hunter is hard to balance because of their hero power. It is arguably the best hero power. I personally believe it to be, which is why the justicar upgrade for it was not as big an upgrade as any other class, and why it has gotten hero power replacements that are so insane, but are never useful. Dinomancy is an insane hero power to have, but in a midrange deck you would prefer to kill your opponent. I have been trying a hunter deck that has a lot of stall, some value, and have gotten control decks to fatigue multiple times with it. If I had a n'zoth that I could use as a finisher the deck would be really decent, but I don't so I tend to lose to the enemy's finisher instead.
The deck has also been able to beat aggro whenever it draws decently, but I threw in a lot of anti aggro tools. Even the terrible ones like exploding bloatbat are necessary and have won me games.
The reason why this deck even remotely works though is that the hero power is insane. I win games because I did 40 or more damage from hero power, and used a little burst to finish off the opponent. That just proves how good that hero power is in control, a terrible deck with no finisher has won me just over half my games because of the hero power that hunter has.
I suggest people experiment with almost purely stall decks with hunter, and see what it does before claiming hunter is bad because blizzard can't balance. Blizzard can't easily make hunter good without making it op, and hunter has had decent decks within the last year despite that difficulty.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Just fill your deck with one drops, that is creative deck design, right?
The game is balanced in the way that all classes will be strong at some point and weak at other points. No class will always be the strongest, no class will always be the weakest. Ebb and flow.
No it's freaking not dude, that's what we're talking about. Hunter is the perenial underdog meanwhile the same classes dominate the meta expansion after expansion. How long has it been since Hunter has had a tier one deck? Meanwhile mage and druid and priest get busted card after busted card expansion after expansion.
You must be new to card games. I cannot tell you anything we haven't already heard Mark Rosewater and Blizzard say themselves.
It's been like this since 1993 and it will continue to be so.
Hunter in WoW has both AoE and healing. A single healing spell for 30% of your and your pets HP, and Marksman has a few AoE options, Survival having a Dragonfire Grenade (a Targeted AoE) and their Artifact ability which is an AoE cone.
A cool mechanic to implement into a form of control Hunter would be Mongoose Bite, which is an attack in WoW which increases in damage every time you use it. If their was a low cost minion targeting spell that could add itself back to your hand and increase it's damage by one, it would probably be a strong control card that helps Hunter a lot. It won't get printed though, because Blizzard doesn't like Hunter.
Hunter works just fine in Wild where there are stronger neutral options like Mad Scientist and Haunted Creeper to beef up the early game tempo as well as Sludge Belcher and Dr. Boom to bide time before the 9-drop Call of the Wild. In addition, N'Zoth brings the cats and the sludge back to seal the deal if they haven't been retired already.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
The problem is that Hunter has been consistently weak for a while now. Why not Mage? Or Druid? Or Warrior?
I understand
Well, let's just agree to disagree. I'm not saying it should be predictable, but it seems a little unfair for a certain class, or a group of classes to be strong for a long period of time, and another class to be weak for too long. I am not even saying "equally good" - just make a class relatively strong, not necessarily the best after it's been weak for a while. Warrior or Druid had multiple good archetypes for a long period of time. Hunter did not have one. What's the point of having 9 classes then, right?
Additionally, Priest and Warlock were weak for a short period of time and people complained like crazy every day. I don't want them to be weak for a long period of time either. I'd like to pick a class randomly every day and not feel like I am playing a joke of a class. Which "purify priest" used to be, and now hunter seems to be a class for rank 20-18 f2p players.
I started this topic and I still stand with my initial statements. However, I played quite a bit in Wild and the huge variaty there coupled with that almost no one plays makes Hunter quite good actually. I climbed from rank 15 to rank 4 with my Wild Hunter deck, also risen to rank 8 (and beyond) in Standard.
While Hunter is viable at lower ranks, the class itself is pretty weak still, I bet once I'll reach Legend I will barely see any success. We will see, next expansion should introduce good early minions and a removal. Or a cheap AoE minion which can be combod with Toxic Arrow.
Hunter is hard to balance because of their hero power. It is arguably the best hero power. I personally believe it to be, which is why the justicar upgrade for it was not as big an upgrade as any other class, and why it has gotten hero power replacements that are so insane, but are never useful. Dinomancy is an insane hero power to have, but in a midrange deck you would prefer to kill your opponent. I have been trying a hunter deck that has a lot of stall, some value, and have gotten control decks to fatigue multiple times with it. If I had a n'zoth that I could use as a finisher the deck would be really decent, but I don't so I tend to lose to the enemy's finisher instead.
The deck has also been able to beat aggro whenever it draws decently, but I threw in a lot of anti aggro tools. Even the terrible ones like exploding bloatbat are necessary and have won me games.
The reason why this deck even remotely works though is that the hero power is insane. I win games because I did 40 or more damage from hero power, and used a little burst to finish off the opponent. That just proves how good that hero power is in control, a terrible deck with no finisher has won me just over half my games because of the hero power that hunter has.
I suggest people experiment with almost purely stall decks with hunter, and see what it does before claiming hunter is bad because blizzard can't balance. Blizzard can't easily make hunter good without making it op, and hunter has had decent decks within the last year despite that difficulty.
Just fill your deck with one drops, that is creative deck design, right?
Hunter in WoW has both AoE and healing. A single healing spell for 30% of your and your pets HP, and Marksman has a few AoE options, Survival having a Dragonfire Grenade (a Targeted AoE) and their Artifact ability which is an AoE cone.
A cool mechanic to implement into a form of control Hunter would be Mongoose Bite, which is an attack in WoW which increases in damage every time you use it. If their was a low cost minion targeting spell that could add itself back to your hand and increase it's damage by one, it would probably be a strong control card that helps Hunter a lot. It won't get printed though, because Blizzard doesn't like Hunter.
Hunter works just fine in Wild where there are stronger neutral options like Mad Scientist and Haunted Creeper to beef up the early game tempo as well as Sludge Belcher and Dr. Boom to bide time before the 9-drop Call of the Wild. In addition, N'Zoth brings the cats and the sludge back to seal the deal if they haven't been retired already.
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.