Hearthpwn

I understand the pessimism, but all of the YouTubers and Streamers I've seen have been playing Midrange/Controlling decks and seeing success with them.  It's easy to forget that you're a single person who experiences things from a single perspective, when there's "100 Million" (So I'd say maybe closer to 50 Million who log in and play daily, probably less) players in Hearthstone since 2018.  There's simply too many people for a single person's experiences in this game to really elaborate on the shape of the meta.  Heck, don't different regions have different metas too?

Every expansion has a meta cycle contained within it, like somebody already said, in the beginning aggro decks prosper because people haven't streamlined their slower decks to respond to what's needed yet.  Later on in the expansion, the more late game decks can do well.  Even now Control/ETC Warrior is doing extremely well, as Warrior has a lot of efficient anti-aggro.  Priest still has "Greetings fellow humans" and infinite ways to revive it, so bad start aggro and midrange still have that to contend with.  Mage has Flame Ward and draws it as reliably as Huffer gets summoned off of Animal Companion, along with efficient Discover and resource generation to slow down aggro matchups.  Or hell, go aggro itself because it's Mage.  Shaman has plenty of killer anti-aggro tools, so does Warlock, and Paladin.

It's just a matter of patience.  I'm personally cool with whatever, I play Wild anyway and consider all forms of gameplay valid, aggro, control, and combo.  Aggro is important because it's inexpensive to make aggro decks, and people with less time to play can use aggro to enjoy Hearthstone with what time they have.  Combo and Control decks tend to be rather expensive and time consuming to play, so people with better luck/more money and more time can enjoy those.  It's all a balance, and all a part of what makes card games what they are.  And if you're especially worried, taking a break and waiting for the rotation couldn't hurt, since many classes (barring DH who's still only 1 year old) will lose a lot of their power cards, and things will generally even out.  Heck, maybe I'll play Standard again once Hunter has more viable decks beyond the 2 it's had for 2 straight years!

Long post short, control isn't going anywhere it hasn't gone before.  K&K was my fav expansion season as well, and I'm sure eventually we'll see a return to that format.  In the meantime, it's always possible to make due with what you have and play the way you want to.  And if not, you can take a break!  It's really good for mental health, I take breaks from Hearthstone constantly.

Blizzard hasn't officially confirmed it, but check out the Hero section of the Collection and zoom all the way to the back and you'll see Nagrand Garrosh.  He's lookin' pretty hot for a war criminal.

For anybody wondering (I'm not sure if a thread has been made about this yet), Maxima Blastenheimer launching The Darkness at an opponent doesn't work, the Darkness immediately goes dormant before attacking, and doesn't die (because it's dormant).  RIP the dream of 6 mana 20 damage to face lol.

It makes total sense that it would work this way, so I'm not surprised, but it was fun figuring it out, and what with Hearthstone's occasional weird spaghetti code, there was a chance it could have worked.

Yeah, putting aside how annoyed I was about the unoriginal designs (and the Tank) the cards are pretty good in the common-rare range, which is one of Hunter's greatest strengths, being accessible for new/ftp players.  The Animal Companion thing was purely fueled by salt and I forgot i even made this thread an hour after i logged off lol.

I'm clearly super wrong about that, but I stand by Hunter's cards being boring.  Many of the cards in recent Expansions that Hunter has received are copies of existing spells that Hunter's had before.  Flark's Boom-Zooka, Deadly Shot, Secret Plan, and King Krush are all cards I can think of off the top of my head that have been reprinted/reused in some way.  And as somebody who's dedicated over 90% of their time in this game to Hunter, seeing Hunter get rehashes and retreads while other classes get cool and new stuff, it feels bad.  Obvious salt thread tbh.

Thanks to everybody who took the time to call me an idiot because I probably wouldn't have changed my mind without all that.

Looks like Shaman is getting another weird archetype that Blizzard *really* want to work, or are at least content with dedicating a large amount of cards to in this set.  Freeze Shaman has gone down in history as kind of a joke, so we'll see how this goes.

This is pretty solid for Priest flavor, and a pretty good card.  Priest cards are too varied in effects to reliably use this to grab an answer you need, but still a good enough value card that can gain you mana in the right (and easily achieved) spot.

summons 3 lil fellas for 8 mana so i get it.  don't be so hard on yourself

i understand where you're coming from with the "competitive" angle, but a lot of people play casually and just want the game to be more accessible without spending large sums of money

ah yes, because Hunter cards that cost higher than 6 have historically been bangers!

tbh i feel like each class should have a Blizz employee that represents it and ensures thematic card design, the way MTG has "Color Ambassadors" so that each color still keeps its identity in check.  Maybe then we could have somebody who cares about Hunter designing Hunter cards.

Hunter has been paying for Undertaker since it got patched, tbh.  Hopefully with the Basic Set rework they actually give Hunter something that's good and original, since it has nothing of its own.  Not a single mechanic in Hunter is unique to the class, and it's really sad because Hunter has my favorite themes and aesthetic out of all 10 classes.

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I love discourse!  Looks like I'm late so I'll ignore the way this thread transformed into a Tickatus thread and try to address the OP.
OP really shot themselves in the foot by pointing insults in the direction of everybody they're talking about which makes the whole post look like it was just meant to vent or shake some salt out at what they're seeing on the forums.
To an extent I agree that the community has become extremely quick to anger and there's evidence of that going back pretty dang far.  Shadowrisen made a great point that I think about sometimes myself - Shudderwock being indirectly nerfed because of community outcry and "feelbads" being the first time they'd ever done such a thing, leading to a grown sense of entitlement in the community at large, expecting perhaps that every single "flaw" in the game that makes it less fun for them is bad game design and demanding changes.  I've been to enough Tick threads to know that yeah, some people are just passionate and heated about Tick - people hate Mill mechanics in every card game because they feel bad to play against.  You can't convince somebody that they aren't actually upset, and in a setting where the two intentions are fun and victory, you can't really convince them they were having fun when they weren't.

I think the upside is a more fluid and rapidly changing meta, frequent changes in the forms of nerfs for strong cards and (recently) buffs to weaker cards.  And frankly because there's a casual audience I do think that "fun" is a reason to make changes for certain people/cards.  Video games are meant to be fun.  Games are meant to be fun.  Maybe there is an issue of un-fun when enough people are talking about something.  At the same time our perceptions are warped in terms of how many people are talking about something, because only a small fraction of players actually go on forums to discuss this game at all!  Remember when you talk about whiners, you're talking about a small percentage of people within a small percentage of the entire playerbase.

I don't think OP is completely off base at thinking people are entitled - some people are.  I am against putting people in boxes and insulting others, so I can't really support the spirit of the post.

 Very good post. I'm guilty of seeing the noise and associating it with the player base at large, sometimes it can seem like an overwhelming majority. You're right though, I do just wish there was more community spirit, at least on a site like this and the community was active in problem solving etc. Whilst this site doesn't reflect the whole player base, it's still too negative for my liking and having been active in other forums or sites where its less snarky and more helpful, I don't think it's simply "it's the Internet, that's how it is" because that isn't how it is absolutely everywhere (although it's increasingly getting there). 

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A post which is complaining about people complaining and attacking people personally (calling them pussies) who attack people personally. Sounds like you are part of the problem.

First of all you've missed the point entirely. 

Second, I'm not complaining about people complaining - I'm complaining about the state of the community. I'm perfectly fine with people complaining about stuff - its good for everyone to voice their opinion and I encourage that. My point is that people constantly complain about stupid things - not to make the game better but to suit their own agendas.

Never complained about personal insults either - I said that people take such great offence to any criticism on their statements that they immediately resort to personal insults. It's just toxic and wasn't how the core community used to be. So yeah, I'll stand by my statement of 'self entitled pussies' because I cant think of another term to describe them.

And sure I complain about things - a lot of things but the difference between me and the self entitled crew - is that I will concede on a point I've made if there is a good enough argument against it. I don't complain about cards unless I have statistical evidence to back up that the card is OP and rarely (if ever) resort to personal insults unless someone personally attacks me first. 

You response ignored all of the points I made and responded with a non sensical statement to attempt to portray me as a hippocrit - I feel like only one of us is part of the problem here and it isn't me!  

 Fine, you want me to prove I didn’t “miss the point”?

1. You are indeed complaining about people complaining. The reason you said the “state of hs community” is bad is because people are whiny and self centered and won’t be happy unless they get their way. To this, you further added that it is “so annoying” and that when you got called out for whining, you said it’s okay for people to whine. What then, decides whether it is right for people to whine? It seems you placed yourself as an intellectual superior who has selfishly stated that you have the right to whine but people who “don’t get your points” don’t.

2. Saying a community is toxic because it attacks people while at the same time attacking people just proves that you are toxic by your own definition. You immediately resorted to attacking me, for example, even though I simply made an observation and recorded that observation as a comment.

3. Saying you are better than the “self entitled crew” because you know when to concede points is highly arrogant because other people often do the same if they are proven wrong, and it also puts you in a position where you are justifying the way that you complain which is completely subjective, so deciding that your complaining is righteous but theirs isn’t is a very “holier than thou” toxic mindset.

4. I didn’t ignore anything. I chose not to go into a detailed response because I didn’t want to. You complaining that I didn’t is just more proof that you are toxic since I have no obligation to go beyond what I said but you want to victimize yourself saying that it’s not you who is causing problems, but everyone around you. I changed my mind because I feel you should know how ridiculous you sound.

5. Throwing out the idea that I am part of the problem after I simply made an observation on your post is the true nonsense. What I said has absolutely no comparison to what you described. You complained about people who Whine about cards which are not proven to be good and attack people personally when they are proven wrong. I did neither of those things, so saying I’m part of the problem is just a defense mechanism and makes absolutely no sense but further proves that you are part of THIS problem which YOU stated of people who attack people personally who criticize them. Open your eyes to hypocrisy. Just because you don’t like what I said doesn’t mean it is untrue.

Listen I'm not going to get into a detailed argument with you because you're dead set on ridiculing anything that I say, so I'll keep this as brief as possible. My overall argument has never been that people shouldn't be complaining, that's absurd and I've stated multiple times that I m perfectly fine with people complaining - its just a bit excessive right now and even when people do complain no one ever seems to agree anyways. I felt in the past things were a lot more constructive and it was genuinely fun to engage with the community for the most part.

By your own logic I suppose you're complaining about me complaining about others complaining. What a time to be alive!

At no point in any of my posts have I personally attacked you - if you could care to highlight exactly where I attacked you or which parts of my response offended you, that would be appreciated because I'm genuinely lost as to how you see my response as a personal attack on yourself?

You've made multiple incorrect assumptions throughout your response and then responded to those assumptions, which is honestly ridiculous. As I stated above I've never personally attacked you, I've never suggested that anyone doesn't have a right to complain but I do, I've never suggested that my complaints should be held in a higher regard than anyone else's, I've never suggested that I'm the victim and everybody else it the problem but me - yet you've went out of your way to state that all of those are the case. Which doesn't in any way prove that you didn't "miss the point", it proves you're highly manipulative, if you ask me.

One point I agree with though, is that - my response was arrogant when I suggested that I concede points when others don't. People do concede on things but its frustrating that its seems to happen a lot less now than in the past - its an element of the times, doesn't mean I have to like it. Nonetheless I apologise for the way I came across there as I didn't articulate myself very well.

Honestly - I really don't want to get into a pointless debate with you. I'm never gonna agree with you because you've made far too many assumptions, so it is merely a waste of both of our time. 

Starting a comment saying you don't want to argue when all I did was respond to your response seems arrogant once again.  The whole point of the thread was to have a discussion no? If you think you are above having an argument, the state of the community will never change. What have I said that showed I was dead set on ridiculing anything you said? I find that much of what you said is true about the hs community.  I wouldn't have said it the same way, but that doesn't matter, to each their own.  I even acknowledged that the state of the hs community was indeed a "problem" in my original post, but I don't believe there is anything to be done about it, so I swept it aside to point out hypocrisy in your post so you are more self-aware. Didn't seem to work since you also ignored most of what I said and wrote it off as an "incorrect assumption". Here is my response to your most recent response:

1. Given that you are okay with people complaining but not excessive complaining, what amount of complaining is "excessive"? That is a very subjective answer meant to put you on a moral high ground.  If you have an objective answer for how much complaining is excessive, then I'd ask, why do you get to decide how much is considered "excessive"? I asked this question in the first detailed response, but you never answered, but really feel that you should.  You compared it to the state of the hs community in the past. Do you have proof of it being a more constructive community? I remember the community always having both a constructive and toxic side, and believe it still does.

2. Trying to shift what I said to be "complaining about you complaining about you complaining is silly.  Complain is defined as expressing dissatisfaction or annoyance at the state of affairs or event.  You are the one dissatisfied, thus making the post.  My reason for commenting has nothing to do with me being unsatisfied, I am totally content. I truly do not care that you are complaining. I like commenting on things to contribute to a conversation, nothing to do with me being annoyed.

3. I didn't say that you meant to personally attack me or are victimizing yourself on purpose, but the things you said made it come off that way, which is really all I'm trying to do, is make you aware of the language you are using. I have taught English, so I believe the words you choose to use are important. Your statement that what I said was nonsensical and that I was "part of the problem" came off as a personal attack because what I said was in no way related to the problems you are concerned with in your post. As for not victimizing yourself, how so? If the "state of hearthstone community" bothers you enough to make a post about it, doesn't that mean you believe yourself to be above the rest of the community and you are a victim of people's excessive complaints? I am truly curious what else it could mean to victimize yourself but to say that a community (which you are in) is toxic (or a generalized negative statement), but exclude yourself from the toxicity. 

 

4. There is a difference between "incorrect assumptions" and unintended consequences.  Though you may not have meant that people don't have a right to complain, or that your complaints are on a higher level, the way in which you presented this discussion seemed to conclude that you do, regardless of it being true.  It might be a misunderstanding, but those are things that should be discussed if you want any positive changes.  If what you say can be interpreted as hypocrisy, then you should clarify to show that it isn't, or at least be prepared to give a defense. If you believe that me trying to get a defense out of you is manipulative, that has some merit, but it seems that you said I was being manipulative by using falsehoods, but I wasn't claiming they were true about you personally, but was making those conclusions based on what you said.  If you think my logic is flawed, then you should address that rather than say it is "incorrect" and "ridiculous".

5. I appreciate your agreement that you came off as arrogant and are willing to apologize about it.  If you truly were an arrogant person by nature, I doubt you would have humbled yourself to do so.  I apologize if anything I said was in fact manipulative, as that was not my intention.  I enjoy having some philosophical discussions/debates, so anything I said was not meant to be an attack on you personally or manipulate others against you, but it was to challenge you to think about the implications of what you said. If you do not want to discuss this further, I won't take offense, but I still find that you are someone who deserves respect, or I wouldn't have spent as much time as I have responding to you.

Honestly I'd rather we all made more of an effort to get along with one another. It might not seem this way but I do appreciate that you have taken the time to respond to me and I do understand where you are coming from with a lot of the points you've made. I don't agree with all of them but I do understand. I am always happy to be challenged on statements I make - none of us are perfect, we all live and learn and I'm no different.

I feel like my OP does raise some valid points on issues within the community but it could have been presented better - frustration did get the better of me and I should have realised that using the words that I chose to use was always going to provoke a negative response from some people.

I will take the genuine criticisms on board and aim to do better in the future. I think its fair to say that we've both perhaps made statements which could be considered provocative. I do apologise if I have offended you though, my intention was never to target an individual but a group who I feel are disruptive in the community.

Nonetheless I will leave it at that. I've read all of your points and although I'm not going to respond to all of them individually as I feel we've both made our stances clear and both clarified our motives and intentions. I respect you for taking the time you have to respond - most people wouldn't elaborate in the detail that you have , so for that I am grateful. I hope you have a great day ahead!

Just imagin that giant dinosaur scaping the card limits, and Kalimos is a really good option aswell :D, i just hope the invocation of earth is already fixed.

so i was Playing since the beta but i was stupid player who always DE his collection and i was even spending money on buying , but later i stopped buying things and started new account this year and today i managed for the first time to Have more than 1 deck 

1- Secret Paladin

2- Face Hunter

3- Mid-range DH

4- Control Warlock

5- Mid-Range Mage ( My fav)

6- Spell Mage ( without Lunacy Shit)

Thanks to the Nerfs and luck have 6 Decks to play and now time to start saving Gold for whatever comes next :D 

PS: YOGG Secret for Paladin need nerf its so stupid op :D 

I feel like this thread has derailed a bit. There is a Tickatus thread for everyone that wants to discuss it.

As for the community, it does seem a bit whiney and a bit entitled, but that just seems like par for the course these days.

Lots of people have had a taste of "justice" they received by complaining, protesting and whining. Whether it was actually justified or not. And they will continue to do it. It's like a toddler crying because you took away the piece of candy they found on the ground outside. If you cave and give it back, you're not helping them develop understanding of what's okay and what's not okay. And now they know crying lets them get their way.

I guess at some point we need to draw the line to define which issues are actually issues that need addressing, and which issues just make some people a little bit less happy.

But realistically, how can one game possibly make it's entire audience happy with it 100% of the time? Especially in a competitive setting, where someone has to win and someone has to lose.

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 I thought with my post being short it wouldn’t have been misconstrued but I should have known better.

I didn’t love the first few expansion but they largely followed the foundations laid down by the original game.  In recent years the design team have tossed that completely out of the window. Card draw and card generation now doesn’t even have to have a cost, absurd amounts of mana can be cheated out by most of the roster, stats can be piled onto the board faster and earlier, competitive RNG is a constant factor. The game’s direction has changed massively, imo for the worst.

 I can get where you're coming from. From a personal stand point, I disagree, I've gradually gotten more and more engaged with the game over the last few years and it's now at a point where I play it consistently in some form, for most of the year. Previously I'd find myself breaking for 2/3/4 months at a time because I had gotten bored. I can't say the game is objectively better, just that from my perspective, I've found a lot of the cards and things you can do a lot more fun than previously. I also feel like there are way more viable decks and archetypes now. I coukd be wrong on that but when I started playing, it seemed like everyone pretty much played one of the top few classes and I saw a lot of the same decks. I do see a good variety now and have played different archetypes with most classes within one expansion cycle. 

 A lot of really cool things have been added, Classic HS looks very vanilla nowadays even though I prefer the pacing of the games. I can see why the modern game appeals to people. It’s a lot faster, crazier, and far more reliant on huge swing turns and big plays.

I don’t want to trash the current design team, a lot of what they do is very positive. I just wish they would show a bit of restraint with the power level of their cards.

 It seems like they realise this themselves to be fair. Someone else mentioned in the AMAs they've openly said they've messed up on certain things or got power levels wrong etc which I think is fair enough. I recall it being mentioned that if there is enough clamour for nax to be added to classic then that's something they could be open to and maybe hearthstone classic will develop into something more appealing for people wanting a bit of time with less crazy stuff. 

It seems to me that they are wanting to develop more and more rather than scale back and wind down. Hearthstone seems to be developing into a platform you can go and just play strategy games. Some will stick to one or two of those, others like myself will find something in most content so I'll probably flit about the different modes but predominantly stick with standard.

I sympathise with them to a degree because after you've developed over a thousand or two thousand cards, it must be a really rough balance to keep things fresh and interesting, in reaidng power levels and crazy effects seems like the obvious starting point. I saw a lot of people say barren looks boring etc and so if they look to reduce the power, it's boring, if they don't, it's busted. Feels like they are caught between a rock and a hard place at times.

I do get why people would dislike high power level cards. It's just personal taste that I like them. I like having choices and decisions to make, if a deck can play out differently in most games then that's probably something I'll play a lot of. I already miss the mage quest we lost with this rotation. As much as it wasn't a competitive card, I loved being able to effectively lucky dip every turn and potentially find answers to problems I otherwise wouldn't be able to. 

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A post which is complaining about people complaining and attacking people personally (calling them pussies) who attack people personally. Sounds like you are part of the problem.

Well said.  If ops post hadn't been laden with poorly hidden insults pointed towards the people and issues that obviously annoy him it may have been an interesting topic. 

 I'd agree with both of these. 

I actually don't have an issue with people airing grievances, the game isn't perfect, far from it. For me though, it's the way it's done. Your criticism might be correct but if you surround it in personal attacks, insults and hyperbole then your entire point is lost. I've worked in managing and coaching for 15 years now and there are productive ways of relaying concerns or feedback that don't have to involve insulting anybody who doesn't agree with you and personal jibes at a dev team who can't defend themselves.

If your point or argument is good then let it do its job.

This community also doesn't problem solve and I thin its a shame as well as a missed opportunity. I've been involved in other games where the community pull together, share strategies, guides, builds and even have open dialogue with the dev team and get brought on to help with bug fixes etc. Not a chance this community can be trusted with this sort of thing.

If someone is getting stressed because of Tickatus, you're far, far more likely to see "git good scrub" than a conversation whcih develops into general tips on how to play against the deck, where they are going wrong etc.

You won't get that though because the majority seem absolutely hell bent on everything being someone else's fault. It's very snide and blame centric.

Someone like Regis is a good example of raising issues within the game in a respectful way which encourages dialogue. I don't watch much yohtubd content but he's been very vocal about the game being too expensive, problems with metas and cards etc but he doesn't feel the need to sling around insults whilst he's doing it.

I think with the free to play nature of the game, coupled with it being pretty casual and games generally not lasting very long and there being no real player profile system, it doesn't really have a 'community' feel. The standard of posting on this site is possibly the worst I've ever seen, that doesn't help. There are some really good posters and the site is a great source of information but it is let down by a good amount of the people who visit it.

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A post which is complaining about people complaining and attacking people personally (calling them pussies) who attack people personally. Sounds like you are part of the problem.

Well said.  If ops post hadn't been laden with thinly veiled insults pointed towards the people and issues that obviously annoy him it may have been an interesting topic. 

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It probably stems from the fact that people lost faith to Blizzard as a whole.

Hearthstone came out in an age where we still believed in the company, when they showed that they care about the product first. Now Activision Blizzard is a company that is very clearly out of touch with the players, developers come and go, so we don't really know them or how much they love the game and there is a general sense of scepticism about anything and everything.

The fact that their communication skills are abysmal doesn't hurt either. Just look at the rewards track fiasco. A new reward system that was definitely better than the previous one caused such uproar simply because it was vague, unclear. People would go on and on about comparisons of the lvl50 rewards vs the total rewards of 4 months of grinding like that mattered because noone made it clear that it didn't.

The playerbase hasn't changed that much. Blizzard has.

 I strongly disagree. Blizzard as a developer may have lost a lot of its old respect (the Warcraft 3 fiasco, that mobile Diablo game, heck even stuff as far back as the launch of Diablo 3 has really tarnished the company's reputation as putting out highly polished top tier games), but the Hearthstone team has improved dramatically. People like to point to Ben Brode leaving as this big turning point where Team 5 fell apart, but the truth is since then there's been massive changes for the better. We get regular and fast nerfs, constant AMAs with the team, blog posts detailing their insights and card design philosophy, and even straight-up admissions that they struggle with certain parts of game design. I was shocked last week when in an AMA they admitted they had trouble printing high-cost cards that don't instantly win the game because they'd pushed the power level of lower cost cards too high. They were straight up pointing out the problems with their own design philosophy, which was unthinkable before Year of the Dragon. There is some stuff that could be communicated better, like just how much better the reward track system is (though frankly, people were just upset to be upset, plenty of people did math early on proving the reward track was better for most players), but overall Team 5 has moved in a massively positive direction. Used to be you'd get an announcement of an expansion every 4 months, one set of nerfs halfway through an expansion cycle, and complete radio silence for the rest of the time.

"Golden age" Team 5 let Naxx Undertaker Hunter, statistically the most powerful deck of all time, go unnerfed until after the next expansion came out. Can you imagine the shitstorm that would've been stirred up if we'd had to wait for Lunacy Mage nerfs for two whole months, let alone until the next expansion came out? This community threw more of a fit over a deck being broken for two weeks than the Naxx-era HS community threw over a deck being more broken for four months. I'm not even mad at this - Lunacy Mage deserved the outcry, and Undertaker should've had more pushback - but it definitely goes to show that the HS community has become quicker to anger.

This is a good thing to some extent, like getting the Kargal refund, and even making the reward track even more generous (which wasn't necessary at all, but it was definitely nice), but it also means there's people causing a lot of noise over a lot of dumb shit. The outrage over the reward track was misguided, the outrage over Tickatus risks causing a nerf to a card that doesn't deserve it, and the early outrage about Watchpost Rogue caused one of the dumbest nerfs the game's ever seen. The community's constant outrage can get changes for the better, but when it's over dumb things it risks making changes for the worse. If Blizzard had caved in and removed the reward track entirely, as a not small contingent of the community wanted, I'd have gone into Barrens with 3k less gold than I did. 

A post which is complaining about people complaining and attacking people personally (calling them pussies) who attack people personally. Sounds like you are part of the problem.