They nerfed Tuskar totemic which isn't nothing, there were threads about that and a bunch of crying. Doomhammer was whined about because of the rockbiter combo, well they nerfed the rockbiter part. Execute received more outcry than ever in recent months, and what do you know...all of a sudden this card that has been around since the beginning was nerfed.
Games should be balanced at the highest level of play, and according to statistics and data. Not opinions of random people online. If you look at most other competitive games that is how it done...cause you know it makes sense.
Dude just let this thread die. We get it, you're a top 10 legend player who always goes 12-0 in arena and you could clearly design a much better balanced and better selling game than Blizzard but literally everything you said in this post is wrong.
1. The tuskar nerf was absolutely deserved and there was a huge outcry because of how broken the card was. If you want numbers Disguised toast showed out of 50,000 tuskars played there was a 3/7 chance to increase your odds of winning by over 20% and if you got a totem golem on turn 2 or 3 you had a 69% chance of winning the game. If 50,000 plays of a card isn't data to you then idk what is.
2. Rockbiter was a good nerf as well because it was deceptively overpowered. It was either a 1 mana 3/1 weapon which is basically like a fiery war axe and was the best early game removal. It was also good in the mid to late game where it could be used to buff a minion and trade up like a blessing of might or if it was paired with doomhammer it was a 1 mana fireball.
3. Execute is much stronger than it was in vanilla due to new cards being released. Cards like blood to ichor made execute a 2 card combo which was 2 mana summon a 2/2 and kill any minion even behind a taunt. Ghoul was also added as was revenge. Fact of the matter is execute is always going to be around and if they leave it at 1 mana it limits the amount of direct damage or aoe spells they can give warrior forever.
Now on to your precious CoTW.
1. Blizzard does have the statistics and data and we as a community have partial statistics and data. Blizzard themselves said the card was intended to be powerful but it was over performing at 8 mana so clearly their numbers showed it was doing much better than they thought it would. However your crying is as you put it "the opinion of a random person online" and backed up by literally no numbers or data.
2. When Blizzard has nerfed a card due to "people's feelings" they have announced it. They openly admitted pyroblast and mindcontrol were made 10 mana from 8 because "they felt unfair even though they personally felt they were balanced". When Yogg was nerfed they said it was a subpar card that was above average in some decks but felt unfair to lose a game just because of Yogg. They said the Leroy and Gadgetzan nerfs were because it wasn't fun or interactive to play against. They didn't say anything like this about CoTW.
3. The statistics we have showed that before the nerf hunter was the 2nd most played class at almost 30% of all decks on ladder and of ALL the decks made 80% included 2 CoTWs and of the meta decks all of them ran 2 CoTWs. Again in Blizzard's official statement they said they said they didn't want it to be an auto include and they wanted more variety in the class.
4. CoTW was one of the most played cards on ladder period and it was one of the only super common cards that is a win condition, fireball being probably the only other one. I showed the stats of the most included cards a few pages back and I bet you can't find more than 10 cards that are played in over 80% of decks that haven't been nerfed, rotated out or are over powered.
This goes out to you, BVanScoy and everyone else who thinks this card was fair at 8 mana. If it was so balanced why did every hunter play it? People don't play balanced cards, they play broken cards. Weak cards and balanced cards don't get played in every deck for the exact reason that they're weak or balanced. Look at refreshment vendor, it has decent stats, heals you but also has a downside which makes it pretty balanced but almost no one plays it. People love exploiting broken cards like muster for battle and Dr. Boom though because they fit in aggressive decks, midrange decks, control decks and tempo decks and thus you see them as auto includes much like CoTW. The fact that literally every hunter plays 2 copies they are indirectly admitting how OP it is. If you can objectively show using numbers and data that it was balanced despite everything that the community said and Blizzard themselves said then by all means proves us wrong, but if you can't the feel free to keep crying, it's a good way to get rid of excess salt, just remember to drink water to stay hydrated ;)
Here's Blizzard's actual statement on the card: Although Call of the Wild is intended to be a powerful late game option, it is over performing at 8 mana. By moving it to 9 mana we intend to tone down its power enough that it won’t be an automatic inclusion in every Hunter deck and overshadow other strategies.
Please provide a reasonable argument why 8 mana is appropriate to summon a 6/6 taunt with divine shield and deathrattle 5/3 weapon (Arcanite reaper is 5/2 and costs 5)? We can play these games all day, but the nerf is already done so I don't know why this thread is continuing.
Comparing a legendary to a non-legendary is a pointless exercise and is the type of logical fallacy one resorts to when out of actual arguments.
Absolute lies. Midrange hunter is tier 4 right now. Face hunter and Secret hunter, are tier 3. Cotw wasn't undercosted at 8, but crybabies got their way like they always do with blizzard (and as you can see with every other nerf that came in that same patch).
Tier 3 meta relevenant? Lol, no. Hunter is tied for 2nd worst class with paladin (worst is still priest).
Right. The tempostorm meta snapshot four days after the nerf went live is the absolute arbiter of whether or not hunter is viable.
Give me a break. Take a deep breath and let the meta settle down for a few weeks and then we'll see where we are.
And please provide some reasonable argument as to why 8 mana is an appropriate cost to summon three minions that are each worth more 3.5 mana at a minimum.
Honestly I am just trying to clear up many of the misconceptions people have about Hunter. I try to explain things as clearly as possible. I know I don't do that 100% of the time but I like to think that at least half of my explanations are at least coherent.
Explaining implies that you understand something other people don't. That's not the case. You believe something that others don't and are just regurgitating the same fuzzy logic over and over again to try to refute the logic behind a nerf that has already happened.
CotW was overpowered at 8 mana. No reasonable person disputes this. It is arguably undercosted even at its new cost. Hunter is still meta relevant and will continue to be since it matches up nicely with the few hard counters to midrange shaman. Maybe CotW becomes a one-of. Not a big deal.
The 1 point variation (which is common between class cards which do the exact same thing) is pretty much irrelevant because of it being distributed to attack. You want taunts to be more durable. This also is why something like Sen'jin Shieldmasta (also because it's a neutral of course) is 4 mana instead of 3.
Arcane Golem was replaced even pre-nerf by better alternatives a cards were released. Argent Horserider took it's place a majority of the time I would say as it was more durable and accomplished the same thing. Arcane Golem really was only seen in the odd combo deck later on. Korkron I am unsure why it's oplayed when it's clearly understated for it's cost. I'm thinking it has to do with Warrior's lack of tools for aggression. They have Alexstraza's Champion but it requires you to build your deck around dragons which are inherently not very aggressive cards.
The only thing you've proved is that you don't understand anything. Huffer and Misha are factually overpowered at 3 mana, even by class standards, which is why Animal Companion introduces them randomly. If they were of a normal "class" power level, each of the 3 would be collectible minion; and Huffer and Misha would be staples in every single Hunter deck. Again, your failure to understand this very basic point belies your entire argument.
Arcane Golem absolutely saw play pre-nerf in aggressive and combo decks and was primarily replaced in Zoo and Aggro Shaman by Argent Horserider because of its ability to utilize buffs effectively. This is a result of the strategy of those decks, not a problem with the card. Face Hunter almost exclusively ran Golem over Horserider. Consider the cadillac of charge cards - Leeroy Jenkins is a 5 mana, 6-2 that spawns two 1-1 tokens. 8 stat points (3 off vanilla value), plus spawns 1 mana worth of tokens and is a legendary. Huffer is only 1 point off of vanilla value and has no downside. If you don't understand that it would not be a 3 mana minion independently, there is really no reason to discuss any of this further, because again, you are either being a troll or simply do not understand the game.
Why wouldn't it see play if what you get out of it is equal in power to other 3 cost minions. That makes absolutely no sense at all.
Again, if you don't understand why getting a random minion with a completely different effect at a normal "class" power level doesn't work, you don't understand the game at a very basic level.
Northsea Kraken is actually even with what Call of the Wild would be at 9 mana. Northsea Kraken does 4 immediate damage and is a 9/7 body. The difference is the 4 damage is guaranteed and doesn't cause you to "lose stats" (Huffer dies when it attacks a minion leaving you with a 5/4 and a 2/4) after it's immediate effect. a 9/7 can still trade with any 9 drops after it's effect, a 5/4 and a 2/4 cannot. I explain this further and more in my previous post.
So it's 1 stat off of Kraken if Huffer trades off, but does more damage, buffs other minions, has higher stats when it doesn't trade, and is harder / more expensive to remove. Yeah, I'd say it's better.
Deathrattles aren't amazing so having the best deathrattles means nothing when the bar is set very low. Hunter deathrattles are nothing special either. A lot of them are still major tempo losses. So the Hunter's turn 6 9 times out of 10 wasn't good meaning the opponent's opportunity to swing tempo in their favor came 1 turn earlier. This is even ignoring the fact that at 7 mana there are multiple ways to deal with Savannah Highmane that actually end with the Hunter's opponent not only clearing Savannah Highmane but coming out ahead on board.
It is a common occurrence depending on either the Hunter or the Hunter's opponent's draw. If the Hunter has a bad draw or if the Hunter's opponent has a good enough draw it happens. This is what puts Hunters in a peculiar situation. They have no draw which means they rely solely on the draw you get at the beginning of each turn. It occurs vs not just aggro and other mid-range decks, it happens against Tempo, Miracle, and even against some control decks. Call of the Wild is the entirety of their meaning after it they have run out of steam and will not be able to put out significant enough pressure to out last heals/ massive armor gain, etc. Thisis one reason why Priest (when it Is strong) does really well against Hunter. It has really good removal against Hunter minions and has the tools to out last the Hunter. Being able to Entomb a Hunter's Savannah Highmane, for example, not only removes the minion wihtout triggering the deathrattlebut it also shrinks the Hunters deck into being mostly low mana cards. Depending on what deck is facign off against Hunter clearign the Call of the Wild can win you the game.
Give me a break. Highmane is the best non-legendary deathrattle minion in the game by a longshot and is only hard-countered by 3 cards that see actual play - Entomb, Hex and Polymorph. Infested Wolf and Grandmother are quite sticky as well. Considering Priest's complete inability to do anything before T3 in its one viable deck and the lack of taunts in that list, Hunter should have a walkover in that match-up. You should also be putting a ton of pressure on Miracle. The Tempo Mage match-up is solidly favored for both Hunter flavors. Again, not sure how well you understand the game if you're citing a pair of low-tier decks and a high-quality deck that you actually counter quite effectively as problems, particularly when you should have a board against all of them.
You can keep saying whatever you want, but I've read you're posts (an unfortunate waste of my time) and they all are weak arguments based on a flawed or biased understanding of the game. At this point, I can only assume that you're trolling, so I'm done wasting my time with you.
Is your argument really "I can't drop my legendaries the turn he pays Call of the Wild it's op"?
No, apparently you're not much for reading comprehension. I said quite clearly that your argument that CotW doesn't directly counter high value legendaries does not preclude it from being inappropriately costed. That was in response to you saying this.
And oh, by the way, if you have even something as meager as the spiders from Infested Wolf, that Rag is dead and Deathwing still has to deal with Misha.
They actually aren't worth more than 3 mana. I went through that as well in previous posts. It's only "worth more than 3 mana" if you compare it to 3 mana nuetral cards that never see play. When you compare the stats and effect they are right in line with class 3 drops. Think of it this way, if you were to play those 3 cards on turn 8 on an empty board you aren't gain much tempo at all. This is why you get the 1 mana discount. Call fo the Wild is only really effective when you have a board left from turn 7 (which is a tough turn for Hunters since they do not have a decent 7 drop). This is because Leokk allows those minions to trade up (Hunter minions lately have not been know to trade up very well). I explain this in more detail in a previous post.
So many problems here. First of all, Fierce Monkey actually does see play at 3 mana. Misha has the same total stats as Senjin in an arguably better distribution since it will trade with all 3 drops and survive, whereas Senjin can't kill a 3/4. And maybe you don't remember a little card called Arcane Golem, which saw tons of play pre-nerf as a 3-mana 4/2 charge without a tribal tag and with a meaningful downside. How about Kor'kron Elite a 4-drop that sees tons of play with only one additional stat point? If you want to say Leokk is comparable to class 3-drops, I won't really fight you on it. But you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how to value cards or are simply being disingenuous if you're saying that either Misha or Huffer are comparable to class 3-drops. By the way, if the three companions were just as good as class 3-drops, Animal Companion would stop being a staple - undercosting the minions at 3 mana compensates you for the randomness of what you get.
And yes, 9 mana, 22 stat points with 5 charge damage and taunt would still be a perfectly fine tempo play. It's 3 points above vanilla stats plus the immediate damage plus a taunt. Considering enraged Grom is a minimum of 9 mana with lesser stats, no taunt, and vulnerable to single target removal, albeit with greater charge damage and is played is virtually every Warrior deck, again, you're wrong. And Warrior can only do that once.
You can also quit pretending like Hunter struggles to keep minions on the board. It has more / better deathrattles than any other class; and Highmane is a perfectly good T-7 that is virtually guaranteed to leave you a board.
You keep referring to this scenario in which CotW is easily countered because Hunter has no board, opponent has a board, and has a board clear in hand as if that is a normal occurrence. This only happens in midrange or aggro match-ups in which the Hunter player is getting wrecked. If you don't have a board and play a board clear (and it happens to be one of the few that will kill 4-mana minions), you're just back to square 1 for whatever follows it - another CotW, Highmane, Rag, whatever. If you do have a board but no board clear, it's the same thing - Hunter responding on an empty board.
This is all really irrelevant since Blizzard will almost certainly never nerf an expansion card. It just exemplifies the only way Blizzard knows to push classes / archetypes - print a few cards, watch them not work, then break down and create something blatantly 1-2 mana overpowered and watch the fireworks. Same thing withFlamewreathed Faceless for Shaman, MC for Pally, etc. etc.
Like I said, Call of the Wild is actually fine as is.
This is easily a 9 mana, if not 10 mana card. The fact that Team 5 is only capable of using broken cards to push classes doesn't make any of them fine. CotW is broken on the order of Flamewreathed Faceless, and and actually is quite possibly worse.
Notice how the people who are calling for Call of the Wild to be nerfed only know how to repeat the same thing over and over again. I have explained why Call of the Wild is balance and neither needs its cost increased to 9 nor needs to be made legendary. Honestly; to those people. I suggest re-reading the thread
You actually haven't made a single coherent argument as to why the card is balanced. You've just said it was balanced because it isn't as good as legendary 8-drops. That's not really a relevant comparison. Show me a game where a control player drops Rag+Ysera against a double CotW. I guarantee the CotW wins at least 2/3 of those games. Burst damage matters and distributed stats can actually be a blessing given the relative lack of good board clears in the game.
The reason that people don't generally complain about Animal Companion is that the over-statted minions are balanced out by the randomness of what you get. Individually, Misha and Huffer are both clearly above 3 mana value. Leokk is at-worst a 3-mana minion. So, you're getting, at a minimum, 9 mana in value for 8 mana (probably closer to 10 given 22 total stat points), plus the additional value of not spending 3 cards to generate those 3 minions.
You've overrated the weakness to board clear, given that the odds are exceedingly strong that a control player will have to burn AOE at some point earlier in the game given Hunter's steady stream of deathrattle minions. Even if the player does have one in hand, many don't do enough damage to fully-clear the board. Only the most greedy decks will have enough to clear a double-CotW.
This is all really irrelevant since Blizzard will almost certainly never nerf an expansion card. It just exemplifies the only way Blizzard knows to push classes / archetypes - print a few cards, watch them not work, then break down and create something blatantly 1-2 mana overpowered and watch the fireworks. Same thing with Flamewreathed Faceless for Shaman, MC for Pally, etc. etc.
YOGG and LoadHunter is insane with Cloaked Huntress. Now The deck will be just insane with Medivh. It's too easy to stall the game with so many spells.
So Medivh will see play on hunter, sry.
Lock and Load with Huntress suffers the same problem as regular Lock and Load - it is very weak to aggro. I don't normally play aggro Shaman (and thus am not a particularly good pilot of the deck) but had a Shaman daily today and just wrecked L&L hunter with Huntress several times.
Medivh would be a ridiculous win more card in any hunter deck. If you survive the early game, the late game tools between highmane and CotW are more than enough to close the game out. Medivh is just delaying your own victory.
Let's just all remember that this is one of the only things keeping C'thun Warrior out of Tier 1 and give thanks for that simple fact, because f*ck that abomination of a deck.
Hunter has always lacked quality late-game cards. This finally gives them something decent to play, but is still very weak to AOE and is not that hard to counter if you have board. It's quite good against other midrange decks and against control if control has exhausted its removal. But honestly, if you're in a control v. hunter match-up and haven't preserved your AOE to respond to this spell, you've either been outplayed or had a bad draw and were likely to lose anyway.
I don't really play much hunter outside of daily quest, but I'm sure hunter fans would gladly trade this card for Tony, Flamewreathed Faceless, Grom, Tirion, etc.
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Just let this thread die. The nerf happened. Nothing is going to change that.
And anyway, honestly, who gives a sh*t about Hunters?
Dude, go home. War's over. You lost.
So it's 1 stat off of Kraken if Huffer trades off, but does more damage, buffs other minions, has higher stats when it doesn't trade, and is harder / more expensive to remove. Yeah, I'd say it's better.
Give me a break. Highmane is the best non-legendary deathrattle minion in the game by a longshot and is only hard-countered by 3 cards that see actual play - Entomb, Hex and Polymorph. Infested Wolf and Grandmother are quite sticky as well. Considering Priest's complete inability to do anything before T3 in its one viable deck and the lack of taunts in that list, Hunter should have a walkover in that match-up. You should also be putting a ton of pressure on Miracle. The Tempo Mage match-up is solidly favored for both Hunter flavors. Again, not sure how well you understand the game if you're citing a pair of low-tier decks and a high-quality deck that you actually counter quite effectively as problems, particularly when you should have a board against all of them.
You can keep saying whatever you want, but I've read you're posts (an unfortunate waste of my time) and they all are weak arguments based on a flawed or biased understanding of the game. At this point, I can only assume that you're trolling, so I'm done wasting my time with you.
Is your argument really "I can't drop my legendaries the turn he pays Call of the Wild it's op"?
No, apparently you're not much for reading comprehension. I said quite clearly that your argument that CotW doesn't directly counter high value legendaries does not preclude it from being inappropriately costed. That was in response to you saying this.
And oh, by the way, if you have even something as meager as the spiders from Infested Wolf, that Rag is dead and Deathwing still has to deal with Misha.
So many problems here. First of all, Fierce Monkey actually does see play at 3 mana. Misha has the same total stats as Senjin in an arguably better distribution since it will trade with all 3 drops and survive, whereas Senjin can't kill a 3/4. And maybe you don't remember a little card called Arcane Golem, which saw tons of play pre-nerf as a 3-mana 4/2 charge without a tribal tag and with a meaningful downside. How about Kor'kron Elite a 4-drop that sees tons of play with only one additional stat point? If you want to say Leokk is comparable to class 3-drops, I won't really fight you on it. But you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how to value cards or are simply being disingenuous if you're saying that either Misha or Huffer are comparable to class 3-drops. By the way, if the three companions were just as good as class 3-drops, Animal Companion would stop being a staple - undercosting the minions at 3 mana compensates you for the randomness of what you get.
And yes, 9 mana, 22 stat points with 5 charge damage and taunt would still be a perfectly fine tempo play. It's 3 points above vanilla stats plus the immediate damage plus a taunt. Considering enraged Grom is a minimum of 9 mana with lesser stats, no taunt, and vulnerable to single target removal, albeit with greater charge damage and is played is virtually every Warrior deck, again, you're wrong. And Warrior can only do that once.
You can also quit pretending like Hunter struggles to keep minions on the board. It has more / better deathrattles than any other class; and Highmane is a perfectly good T-7 that is virtually guaranteed to leave you a board.
You keep referring to this scenario in which CotW is easily countered because Hunter has no board, opponent has a board, and has a board clear in hand as if that is a normal occurrence. This only happens in midrange or aggro match-ups in which the Hunter player is getting wrecked. If you don't have a board and play a board clear (and it happens to be one of the few that will kill 4-mana minions), you're just back to square 1 for whatever follows it - another CotW, Highmane, Rag, whatever. If you do have a board but no board clear, it's the same thing - Hunter responding on an empty board.
This is easily a 9 mana, if not 10 mana card. The fact that Team 5 is only capable of using broken cards to push classes doesn't make any of them fine. CotW is broken on the order of Flamewreathed Faceless, and and actually is quite possibly worse.
Let's just all remember that this is one of the only things keeping C'thun Warrior out of Tier 1 and give thanks for that simple fact, because f*ck that abomination of a deck.
Hunter has always lacked quality late-game cards. This finally gives them something decent to play, but is still very weak to AOE and is not that hard to counter if you have board. It's quite good against other midrange decks and against control if control has exhausted its removal. But honestly, if you're in a control v. hunter match-up and haven't preserved your AOE to respond to this spell, you've either been outplayed or had a bad draw and were likely to lose anyway.
I don't really play much hunter outside of daily quest, but I'm sure hunter fans would gladly trade this card for Tony, Flamewreathed Faceless, Grom, Tirion, etc.