Hearthpwn

Quote from macbx_jfc >>

TGT is much better than G&G, which was a powercreep fest...that's good for the game.

Warsong change is questionable, but I can get over the idea that it limits "future design space."

^^^^ THIS, especially after ben's video.

+ You can't just blame him. He's one guy from team 5. Blame all of them :)

I don't think anyone realizes this exact thread has happened before. With the Buzzard nerf, with the Undertaker nerf. Even the 'this is Blizzard's method - 1. Release an op card...' is ripped right from those discussions, and still people don't get it. This isn't about one deck, or one archetype. This is about a painful truth Blizzard doesn't want to accept and no one in the community can get past their pet deck rage to realize:

Grim Patron never should have existed to begin with.

I know, that's hard to accept, but take it in. The deck was almost completely built in its current incarnation from the day Patron was spoiled. It practically built itself. That's because brewers knew exactly what cards already in the game exploited Patron's mechanics, so it just came down to refining the deck's little bits until it worked. The problem is that the mechanics of this game (no interaction with the game state when it's not your turn) doesn't work when you have these jumps in numbers.

Blizz is treating their minions like MTG cards, where a temporary pump (or permanent) of +2 is no big deal, and can cost 0. It can't. It's that simple. The lack of defense in this game means every point of pump, every bigger butt and attack on a minion should be at a premium. And in 90% of their cards, that's true. In the 10% that it isn't, we're almost exclusively using those cards in decks and exploiting them with spells that make them do things that plain feel and seem unfair. When you tack on a crap-ton of RNG, it only exacerbates the problem and the feel-bads. The game needs a top-to-bottom overhaul if they're going to keep the same design principles, or we're just going to keep jumping from one broken deck to another.

/thread

Quote from TheSithCode >>

It's not BS. And we already have proof of that.

Highlight from recent Ben Brode interview:

• Dreadsteed was originally going to be released in Naxxramas as a Neutral Minion. Warsong Commander prevented that due to their interaction.

They already had to change the way a card was released because it failed the interaction test with Warsong.

 

 

Too be fair that's more of a Dreadsteed design problem rather than Warsong Commander. Right now he isn't very problematic but if they ever release cards that make him stronger, he'll get better and better as expansions go, just like many other cards...

Quote from ovidiusoft >>

I voted no. When a significant part of the community is dissatisfied with the job you did (attention! even the ones who did not play Patron decks) you did not do your job properly.

As a public figure (the most important) in the HS ecosystem, Ben Brode's job includes:

• (generic goal) make money for Blizzard
• get more new players (a constant increase in new players)
• keep players engaged for a long time (entertained, satisfied, happy, however you want to phrase it)
• create a cool game (from a design / mechanics / technology point of view) (this goes to Blizzard branding)
• gather feedback from the community
• react to said feedback
• communicate your future plans and decisions to the community

Most of the points have din already discussed at large, so I just want to say that in my opinion he fails gravely (and repeatedly) at communicating and explaining their decisions in a clear and open way before making a bad impression. It did not cost them anything to just say "Guys, we want to release new cool cards to make the decks more diverse, here are 2-3 examples of what you will see in the next 2 months. This patron deck is limiting our options and we will nerf this card. Now, I know it's going to upset some of you, but here are some more previews of the cool things we will give you in place of this cool thing we are taking away from you. Oh, the patch is going live starting next season, on Nov 1st (as opposed to next week), so you have time to rethink your strategies and try out your new decks. And just because we're nice, even though the card is soul bound, we will credit your accounts with some dust (if you played this card in the last 30 days)".

There, took me 10 minutes, I don't even work in PR. And I avoided infuriating the community, while showing I am considerate of my users. Even people who are really-really hit by the news will be ok with it.

Wow, I didn't know we were entitled to so much. Oh wait, we're not. Nobody has to live up to your expectations and you don't speak for anyone but yourself so get rid of the confirmation bias crap. Also, it's hard to believe you're the guy to tell Ben Brode what his job is. Someone who makes way more money than you decides that one.

God, will all you complainers shut the fuck up. It happened. It can't be reversed. Use your thinking lumps and come up with a counter to secret paladin.

I can imagine the new MC: 8 mana 5/4 : Put a random secret from your deck into the battlefield.

Kappa

Nublets cannot win without their precious net decks, lol. 

The answer is, no Ben Brode does not know what he's doing.

Quote from ovidiusoft >>

I voted no. When a significant part of the community is dissatisfied with the job you did (attention! even the ones who did not play Patron decks) you did not do your job properly.

As a public figure (the most important) in the HS ecosystem, Ben Brode's job includes:

• (generic goal) make money for Blizzard
• get more new players (a constant increase in new players)
• keep players engaged for a long time (entertained, satisfied, happy, however you want to phrase it)
• create a cool game (from a design / mechanics / technology point of view) (this goes to Blizzard branding)
• gather feedback from the community
• react to said feedback
• communicate your future plans and decisions to the community

Most of the points have din already discussed at large, so I just want to say that in my opinion he fails gravely (and repeatedly) at communicating and explaining their decisions in a clear and open way before making a bad impression. It did not cost them anything to just say "Guys, we want to release new cool cards to make the decks more diverse, here are 2-3 examples of what you will see in the next 2 months. This patron deck is limiting our options and we will nerf this card. Now, I know it's going to upset some of you, but here are some more previews of the cool things we will give you in place of this cool thing we are taking away from you. Oh, the patch is going live starting next season, on Nov 1st (as opposed to next week), so you have time to rethink your strategies and try out your new decks. And just because we're nice, even though the card is soul bound, we will credit your accounts with some dust (if you played this card in the last 30 days)".

There, took me 10 minutes, I don't even work in PR. And I avoided infuriating the community, while showing I am considerate of my users. Even people who are really-really hit by the news will be ok with it.

Quote from danman42 >>

I don't think anyone realizes this exact thread has happened before. With the Buzzard nerf, with the Undertaker nerf. Even the 'this is Blizzard's method - 1. Release an op card...' is ripped right from those discussions, and still people don't get it. This isn't about one deck, or one archetype. This is about a painful truth Blizzard doesn't want to accept and no one in the community can get past their pet deck rage to realize:

Grim Patron never should have existed to begin with.

I know, that's hard to accept, but take it in. The deck was almost completely built in its current incarnation from the day Patron was spoiled. It practically built itself. That's because brewers knew exactly what cards already in the game exploited Patron's mechanics, so it just came down to refining the deck's little bits until it worked. The problem is that the mechanics of this game (no interaction with the game state when it's not your turn) doesn't work when you have these jumps in numbers.

Blizz is treating their minions like MTG cards, where a temporary pump (or permanent) of +2 is no big deal, and can cost 0. It can't. It's that simple. The lack of defense in this game means every point of pump, every bigger butt and attack on a minion should be at a premium. And in 90% of their cards, that's true. In the 10% that it isn't, we're almost exclusively using those cards in decks and exploiting them with spells that make them do things that plain feel and seem unfair. When you tack on a crap-ton of RNG, it only exacerbates the problem and the feel-bads. The game needs a top-to-bottom overhaul if they're going to keep the same design principles, or we're just going to keep jumping from one broken deck to another.

/thread

 

 

These two. Exactly! Nice job explaining.

Quote from KillerDrag >>

Actually if Ben Brode knows what he was doing, shaman wouldnt be at the bottom.

We would have all the 9 class in ladder and not 4 ( paladin, hunter, mage, druid )

I've played some onlines games, and Hearthstone has the worst developpers I've ever seen.

 

LOL, Warsong is not even nerfed yet and already you are saying with absolute certainty that not only will Warrior completely disappear but Warlock too!  Show me these other games that have 9 factions and all of them are tier 1.  Please, link me to these games I want to play them!  Or better yet just stop playing Hearthstone and play these games instead if they are so good.

I've played some onlines (sic) games, and Hearthstone has the worst players I've ever seen.

Quote from KillerDrag >>

We would have all the 9 class in ladder and not 4 ( paladin, hunter, mage, druid )

so you're saying there are no control warriors, handlocks, dragon priests on the ladder ? lolwut

I'm going to be blunt: 

Ben Brode and the rest of the dev team have absolutely no idea what they're doing most of the time. They just make cards with no rhyme or reason and ride out the meta for half a year before they're forced to actually take action. This happens all the time, and it took about this long for Miracle Rogue and Undertaker Hunter decks to be nerfed as well. 

For months they justified not touching Patron Warrior on the grounds that it was 'hard to play', 'wasn't played often', and 'didn't have that high a winrate'. All of those things were irrelevant to why the deck actually should have been nerfed (see: their reasoning for nerfing Miracle Rogue) or simply untrue (Patron was overplayed in every major tournament since its inception). Brode himself recently reiterated these points, now suddenly his hand's been forced. It's a pretty quick change of tune.

I agree that Patron was OP and needed a nerf to set it in line with everything else, but they completely obliterated the deck archetype. The nerf they gave it was pure laziness on their part and shows exactly how they go about doing things. They had lots of players giving good, constructive feedback and suggestions as to what nerfs were REALLY needed for the deck, but they made it crystal clear that they really don't listen.

I'm of the opinion that they've become increasingly sloppy and shortsighted because of how popular Hearthstone has become, and they know they can afford to be this way. I call this the 'League of Legends' effect, as Riot basically did the same things with their game, and had the same lazy attitude that stifled the game, which they could afford because of how popular the game itself became.

Fuck all these Blizz n00bs. probably BB doesn't even play HS

Quote from nocontrol1111 >>

Quote from ovidiusoft >>

I voted no. When a significant part of the community is dissatisfied with the job you did (attention! even the ones who did not play Patron decks) you did not do your job properly.

As a public figure (the most important) in the HS ecosystem, Ben Brode's job includes:

• (generic goal) make money for Blizzard
• get more new players (a constant increase in new players)
• keep players engaged for a long time (entertained, satisfied, happy, however you want to phrase it)
• create a cool game (from a design / mechanics / technology point of view) (this goes to Blizzard branding)
• gather feedback from the community
• react to said feedback
• communicate your future plans and decisions to the community

Most of the points have din already discussed at large, so I just want to say that in my opinion he fails gravely (and repeatedly) at communicating and explaining their decisions in a clear and open way before making a bad impression. It did not cost them anything to just say "Guys, we want to release new cool cards to make the decks more diverse, here are 2-3 examples of what you will see in the next 2 months. This patron deck is limiting our options and we will nerf this card. Now, I know it's going to upset some of you, but here are some more previews of the cool things we will give you in place of this cool thing we are taking away from you. Oh, the patch is going live starting next season, on Nov 1st (as opposed to next week), so you have time to rethink your strategies and try out your new decks. And just because we're nice, even though the card is soul bound, we will credit your accounts with some dust (if you played this card in the last 30 days)".

There, took me 10 minutes, I don't even work in PR. And I avoided infuriating the community, while showing I am considerate of my users. Even people who are really-really hit by the news will be ok with it.

Wow, I didn't know we were entitled to so much. Oh wait, we're not. Nobody has to live up to your expectations and you don't speak for anyone but yourself so get rid of the confirmation bias crap. Also, it's hard to believe you're the guy to tell Ben Brode what his job is. Someone who makes way more money than you decides that one.

Diregarding the kid that has no idea on how a company should work...

Ovidiusoft's post is an excellent example on what is Blizzard's real problem. If you're indifferent to your customers and just forcing your decisions on them without giving them something to look forward to, you are certain to lose them. Many companies failed to keep their customers loyal in the past because of their poor CRM practices. Especially if your product is a game that it's supposed to keep the interest of your customers on a regular basis, customer relationship should be your no.1 priority. Even more, this is the case if your target market is everyone and you have created multiple purposes for playing the game. 

Quote from KillerDrag >>

Quote from ChooLer >>

Quote from KillerDrag >>

We would have all the 9 class in ladder and not 4 ( paladin, hunter, mage, druid )

so you're saying there are no control warriors, handlocks, dragon priests on the ladder ? lolwut

I havent meet any Handlock for like 5 days, control warrior for 3 days, and dragon priest is like one every 6 match.

So yeah.

you do realize that 1 out of 6 match is a LOT, right ?

Quote from WoggleEU >>

theres probably alot of other people who said this already but they nerfed it mostly because warsong limited what cards they could make without those cards being too broken with it and I agree that warsong was a bad card from the start, charge minions arent that fun to play against, so this nerf is justified in my eyes.

...

The problem is not that the card was nerfed.

The problem is that, instead of balancing the card, they dragged her out in the streets, pulled out a set of sub-machinegun and spread Warsong Commander's brains out all over the city streets. And continued firing at the corpse until their magazines were empty.

I feel bad about witnessing this. Who's next?
Will they make Ysera 2/10 anytime soon?
Malygos 4/8?
Dr. Boom 4/2?

I mean: They killed her so brutally, I have trouble trusting them at all right now.
There's balancing, and there's horrific and terrible violence. This was not balancing.

Quote from Frostraven >>

Quote from WoggleEU >>

theres probably alot of other people who said this already but they nerfed it mostly because warsong limited what cards they could make without those cards being too broken with it and I agree that warsong was a bad card from the start, charge minions arent that fun to play against, so this nerf is justified in my eyes.

 

...

The problem is not that the card was nerfed.

The problem is that, instead of balancing the card, they dragged her out in the streets, pulled out a set of sub-machinegun and spread Warsong Commander's brains out all over the city streets. And continued firing at the corpse until their magazines were empty.

I feel bad about witnessing this. Who's next?
Will they make Ysera 2/10 anytime soon?
Malygos 4/8?
Dr. Boom 4/2?

I mean: They killed her so brutally, I have trouble trusting them at all right now.
There's balancing, and there's horrific and terrible violence. This was not balancing.

Because her effect was game breaking. In the Video Ben even states that there were / are cards that they wanted to do, but she would completely ruin them. 

The nerf is fine, calm down. 

Quote from Bleu >>

Because her effect was game breaking. In the Video Ben even states that there were / are cards that they wanted to do, but she would completely ruin them. 

The nerf is fine, calm down. 

Changing a card: Fine
Changing the overpowered charge granting effect to buffing charge minions: Fine

Butchering the card so horribly nobody will ever use her ever again: WHY?

I seriously do not understand why they felt the need to drag her out into the streets execute her in front of a million witnesses.
It's like Blizzard is going:

"IS THIS WHAT YOU WANTED?! HER BLOOD IS ON YOUR HANDS, HEARTHSTONE COMMUNITY!"

We wanted justice. Not a macabre execution.

GP is over.. Find a new deck to net.