Hearthpwn

i'd prefer they buff and nerf cards, the best thing about this kind of virtual card game is that they can change cards unlike say magic where you have to ban cards, it was one of blizzard's selling points when the game came out, now it's like they're afraid of touching cards, blizz design team is not without flaws, sometimes they fuck up by making cards that are too good or too bad, it's ok to change cards , i'm not saying you don't have to give it a lot of thought before doing so, but sometimes it is needed. 

Were people complaining about Gnomeregan Infantry when GvG was being released? I started playing at BRM, so I wouldn't know, but this is nearly the exact same thing. Making a better version of an unplayable card. And even now Gnomeregan Infantry isn't seeing play.

I don't get why you guys are so concerned about this. It's not actively hurting anybody and the old cards are still available if you want to play them in a troll deck. 

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Were people complaining about Gnomeregan Infantry when GvG was being released? I started playing at BRM, so I wouldn't know, but this is nearly the exact same thing. Making a better version of an unplayable card. And even now Gnomeregan Infantry isn't seeing play.

I don't get why you guys are so concerned about this. It's not actively hurting anybody and the old cards are still available if you want to play them in a troll deck. 

Gnomeregan Infantry isn't strictly better than Silverback Patriarch, even in the non-super theoretical way because the Silverback Patriarch has a Beast tag and thus something going for it, in a comparison in a vacuum. People were crying about Dr. Boom vs War Golem, though. This power creep was still not as blatant as the one we're seeing in TGT because every brain dead monkey can see that the 2 new cards are better than their basic counterparts.

If the replacement of unplayed cards becomes a trend in Hearthstone we might end up seeing something like this:

This is a card I made based on someone else's joke but what if we end up seeing a 4 Mana 5/5 or 4/6 at some point? The Chillwind Yeti used to be played in constructed. Cards would be continously rendered more and more worthless with every expansion releasing which could end up ruining the game. This is why so many people are against Blizzard's choice of blatantly power creeping cards instead of buffing old ones.

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Were people complaining about Gnomeregan Infantry when GvG was being released? I started playing at BRM, so I wouldn't know, but this is nearly the exact same thing. Making a better version of an unplayable card. And even now Gnomeregan Infantry isn't seeing play.

I don't get why you guys are so concerned about this. It's not actively hurting anybody and the old cards are still available if you want to play them in a troll deck. 

Gnomeregan Infantry isn't strictly better than Silverback Patriarch, even in the non-super theoretical way because the Silverback Patriarch has a Beast tag and thus something going for it, in a comparison in a vacuum. People were crying about Dr. Boom vs War Golem, though. This power creep was still not as blatant as the one we're seeing in TGT because every brain dead monkey can see that the 2 new cards are better than their basic counterparts.

If the replacement of unplayed cards becomes a trend in Hearthstone we might end up seeing something like this:

This is a card I made based on someone else's joke but what if we end up seeing a 4 Mana 5/5 or 4/6 at some point? The Chillwind Yeti used to be played in constructed. Cards would be continously rendered more and more worthless with every expansion releasing which could end up ruining the game. This is why so many people are against Blizzard's choice of blatantly power creeping cards instead of buffing old ones.

True as to the Silverback Patriarch point. I'd forgotten that it was a beast.

I disagree with the argument that Blizzard will start power-creeping acceptable cards like Yeti. Chillwind Yeti is very strong in Arena, and that trend is looking to continue. Slippery slope arguments are inherently fallacious because they deal only with hypotheticals. Right now Magma Rager and Booty Bay are not usable in any setting, not even Arena. To assume that this will shift towards actual viable arena cards is simply foolish, and if the time ever comes where Chillwind Yeti becomes comparable to Magma Rager than releasing a better version of it would be justified IMO.

But, this isn't power creep. Power creep is making better versions of the already powerful cards. Think the example that Ben Brode gave with creating a better Undertaker. That would be power creep, as it would be taking a power benchmark that was already set and putting it, and thus the standard for other cards, higher. If you think that Magma Rager and Booty Bay Bodyguard are the gold standard for card quality then you need to ladder above Angry Chicken rank.

Only bad cards aren't changed. So basically, they'll nerf Shredder and Yeti could become meta again.

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Were people complaining about Gnomeregan Infantry when GvG was being released? I started playing at BRM, so I wouldn't know, but this is nearly the exact same thing. Making a better version of an unplayable card. And even now Gnomeregan Infantry isn't seeing play.

I don't get why you guys are so concerned about this. It's not actively hurting anybody and the old cards are still available if you want to play them in a troll deck. 

That's the point about this type of powercreep though, the old cards are now not filling any unique role in the game. Due to the two new cards, they are now worthless. Whether or not the two new cards will be used much, this sets a worrying precedent in that Blizzard are okay with essentially disregarding certain cards. Where do they draw the line now? There are still cards that are as poor as Booty Bay Bodyguard , so when do they get new versions? There's nothing to stop this process occurring again, and then that'll be another couple of worthless cards.

I just think it's such a strange way to go about improving cards when they could just directly buff the originals if they chose to.

I must repeat: this is not power creep. Power creep would be making a 4/4 Piloted Shredder, or a 6/6 Sylvanas. Power creep narrows the range of viable cards by increasing the value required to be viable. This is simply making a card which is better than worthless. Remember: Rager and Booty Bay were already worthless. They were seen in basically zero constructed decks, and only drafted in Arena during the most dire of circumstances. It would be impossible to see them less without outright removing them from the game.

That last point is why I believe Blizzard no longer buffs cards. When you buff/nerf a card, you in fact are removing it from the game. You're removing it and replacing it with a different card, with the same name, that is either better or worse. Considering that you only see these terrible cards in Arena, it makes sense that this would be the platform where adding a card and altering a card are different. When you're drafting TGT arena, for example, it is possible that you will see Magma Rager but not Ice Rager. It is also possible that Magma Rager may be your card of choice in said draft. When you change the card (in this case getting rid of 5/1 Magma Rager and adding 5/2 Magma Rager), you're narrowing the card pool slightly which leads to less diverse arena drafts.

I also disagree that this indicates that Blizzard is disregarding these cards. The community disregarded them a long time ago, and now there are better versions of them for use. But the very fact that the 5/1 Magma Rager exists means that Blizzard has not disregarded it. If they had, it would have been buffed to 5/2 without introducing a new card.

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Were people complaining about Gnomeregan Infantry when GvG was being released? I started playing at BRM, so I wouldn't know, but this is nearly the exact same thing. Making a better version of an unplayable card. And even now Gnomeregan Infantry isn't seeing play.

I don't get why you guys are so concerned about this. It's not actively hurting anybody and the old cards are still available if you want to play them in a troll deck. 

That's the point about this type of powercreep though, the old cards are now not filling any unique role in the game. Due to the two new cards, they are now worthless. Whether or not the two new cards will be used much, this sets a worrying precedent in that Blizzard are okay with essentially disregarding certain cards. Where do they draw the line now? There are still cards that are as poor as Booty Bay Bodyguard , so when do they get new versions? There's nothing to stop this process occurring again, and then that'll be another couple of worthless cards.

I just think it's such a strange way to go about improving cards when they could just directly buff the originals if they chose to.

Buffs can come in the way of tribes.  look at what they have done for mechs and dragons.  Fire elementals could be a tribe down the road.  think about this, maybe fire tribes speciall trait is buffing their health by 1 for each fire elemental on the field?  Ice/water elementals could swap attack and health as long as 2 or more members on the board.  There are so many different things they can do in future expansions to fix this, and blizzard has shown they do think about these things with what they have done so far.  

Booty bay and the new guy fill different mana slots so i think its different from fire/ice rager.  If you are doing a full taunt deck, this gives different classes different options.  Goblins can also become a tribe further down the road giving cards like BBB the option to be improved.  There are certainly enough Goblins at this point to have the potential for it down the road.   

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That last point is why I believe Blizzard no longer buffs cards. When you buff/nerf a card, you in fact are removing it from the game. You're removing it and replacing it with a different card, with the same name, that is either better or worse. Considering that you only see these terrible cards in Arena, it makes sense that this would be the platform where adding a card and altering a card are different. When you're drafting TGT arena, for example, it is possible that you will see Magma Rager but not Ice Rager. It is also possible that Magma Rager may be your card of choice in said draft. When you change the card (in this case getting rid of 5/1 Magma Rager and adding 5/2 Magma Rager), you're narrowing the card pool slightly which leads to less diverse arena drafts.

I also disagree that this indicates that Blizzard is disregarding these cards. The community disregarded them a long time ago, and now there are better versions of them for use. But the very fact that the 5/1 Magma Rager exists means that Blizzard has not disregarded it. If they had, it would have been buffed to 5/2 without introducing a new card.

Buffing basic cards would be fairer to new players. Why should they not do that?

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That last point is why I believe Blizzard no longer buffs cards. When you buff/nerf a card, you in fact are removing it from the game. You're removing it and replacing it with a different card, with the same name, that is either better or worse. Considering that you only see these terrible cards in Arena, it makes sense that this would be the platform where adding a card and altering a card are different. When you're drafting TGT arena, for example, it is possible that you will see Magma Rager but not Ice Rager. It is also possible that Magma Rager may be your card of choice in said draft. When you change the card (in this case getting rid of 5/1 Magma Rager and adding 5/2 Magma Rager), you're narrowing the card pool slightly which leads to less diverse arena drafts.

I also disagree that this indicates that Blizzard is disregarding these cards. The community disregarded them a long time ago, and now there are better versions of them for use. But the very fact that the 5/1 Magma Rager exists means that Blizzard has not disregarded it. If they had, it would have been buffed to 5/2 without introducing a new card.

 

Buffing basic cards would be fairer to new players. Why should they not do that?

Because it's not necessary. If a new player really wants a 4-mana 5/4 Taunt, they can just pay 40 dust for one. It's a tradeoff of a slight inconvenience for new players compared to a slight increase in arena diversity. Both options are very slight in their benefits, but making a whole new card gives everybody the ability to play a 5/1 Magma Rager, for what that's worth.

The fact that the differences are so petty makes me wonder why everyone gets so bothered about this.

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Were people complaining about Gnomeregan Infantry when GvG was being released? I started playing at BRM, so I wouldn't know, but this is nearly the exact same thing. Making a better version of an unplayable card. And even now Gnomeregan Infantry isn't seeing play.

I don't get why you guys are so concerned about this. It's not actively hurting anybody and the old cards are still available if you want to play them in a troll deck. 

That's the point about this type of powercreep though, the old cards are now not filling any unique role in the game. Due to the two new cards, they are now worthless. Whether or not the two new cards will be used much, this sets a worrying precedent in that Blizzard are okay with essentially disregarding certain cards. Where do they draw the line now? There are still cards that are as poor as Booty Bay Bodyguard , so when do they get new versions? There's nothing to stop this process occurring again, and then that'll be another couple of worthless cards.

I just think it's such a strange way to go about improving cards when they could just directly buff the originals if they chose to.

I must repeat: this is not power creep. Power creep would be making a 4/4 Piloted Shredder, or a 6/6 Sylvanas. Power creep narrows the range of viable cards by increasing the value required to be viable. This is simply making a card which is better than worthless. Remember: Rager and Booty Bay were already worthless. They were seen in basically zero constructed decks, and only drafted in Arena during the most dire of circumstances. It would be impossible to see them less without outright removing them from the game.

That last point is why I believe Blizzard no longer buffs cards. When you buff/nerf a card, you in fact are removing it from the game. You're removing it and replacing it with a different card, with the same name, that is either better or worse. Considering that you only see these terrible cards in Arena, it makes sense that this would be the platform where adding a card and altering a card are different. When you're drafting TGT arena, for example, it is possible that you will see Magma Rager but not Ice Rager. It is also possible that Magma Rager may be your card of choice in said draft. When you change the card (in this case getting rid of 5/1 Magma Rager and adding 5/2 Magma Rager), you're narrowing the card pool slightly which leads to less diverse arena drafts.

I also disagree that this indicates that Blizzard is disregarding these cards. The community disregarded them a long time ago, and now there are better versions of them for use. But the very fact that the 5/1 Magma Rager exists means that Blizzard has not disregarded it. If they had, it would have been buffed to 5/2 without introducing a new card.

 

To clarify, when I mentioned power creep I meant 'strictly better', my bad.

I get where you're coming from in this situation, obviously we can all admit that Magma and Booty never saw competitive play and most likely neither will the new two. But it's still the principle of it that I find troubling, and the worry that they're simply using this expansion as a means to introduce 'strictly better' cards, which they will then continue to do from now on. And once it has become accepted by the community I think it might become a problem (particularly for new players who may not be able to quickly acquire the superior versions) down the line.

I wouldn't agree that buffing a card is disregarding it in any way, if War Golem was buffed to 7/8 I think most people would agree it's still War Golem as the cards have identities that are more than just Attack/Health/Mana Cost.

At what point does it become a problem? I don't see a problem with it right now; when it actually becomes problematic then Team 5 will address it. If it's not a problem now and won't be a problem until some undefined point in the distant future, then there's no sense complaining about it IMO.

As for the whole "altering a card gets rid of it" thing, consider the example of Novice Engineer. In alpha it was a 2-mana 1/2 that drew you a card, and it was seen in many decks. When Blizzard nerfed it, there was no longer a 2-mana 1/2 card draw in the game. The old Novice Engineer could never be played again, and we instead received a new card that was a 1/1 card draw. It may not be changing the card in spirit, but pragmatically that is the effect it has.

Kripparian already called out power creep when he reviewed these cards.  It is good to see many people are upset, cause it really is inexcusable. This isn't some struggling indie company either, that can barely afford to keep the lights on.  They are making 20 million a month of the game, they don't need to pull shady money grubbing shenanigans like this.  It hurts their reputation, which has been up til now been very pristine.  

I'm ftp, never spent a penny and after this won't ever even consider it. I'll continue to play, for free, but can't financially support such business practices.

I actually don't think any of the cards in this set are overpowered. The power level of this set actually seems comparable to the other sets, and will probably have about the same percentage of good cards as blackrock mountain, or possibly even less, which is to be expected as more and more cards are released in a game that doesn't power creep. The reason why we have a buffed Magma Rager and Booty Bay Bodyguard is because those cards were very underpowered, so they had plenty of room to provide buffed versions of them without increasing the ceiling power level. I believe we've basically hit that ceiling power level with cards like Piloted Shredder and Dr. Boom, making it unlikely that we will be seeing anything significantly stronger than those cards in their respective slots, except possibly for class-specific cards, because those tend to be stronger on average. 

On the contrary, I think Blizzard is going to have more issues with new sets not having enough competitive cards in them as time goes on. 

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I'm ftp, never spent a penny and after this won't ever even consider it. I'll continue to play, for free, but can't financially support such business practices.

Well I'm sure they'll pay plenty of heed to someone who was already proud of not being a customer even before these cards were revealed.

typical mob throwing stones at something they cannot understand because it deviates from their narrow minded vision of utopia.

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Kripparian already called out power creep when he reviewed these cards.  It is good to see many people are upset, cause it really is inexcusable. This isn't some struggling indie company either, that can barely afford to keep the lights on.  They are making 20 million a month of the game, they don't need to pull shady money grubbing shenanigans like this.  It hurts their reputation, which has been up til now been very pristine.  

I'm ftp, never spent a penny and after this won't ever even consider it. I'll continue to play, for free, but can't financially support such business practices.

blizzard always "sand bags" in their games. they didn't make hearthstone because they had some great concept for a digital card game and wanted to try their hand. they made hearthstone because there was a huge market for it, and the company's name alone would carry the product.

if you want this to actually be a GOOD card game, you will have to wait a couple of expansions and let them get used to how developing a real card game goes.

I get where you're coming from, been playing card games since I was about 9, I am currently 28. I was anticipating this game since it was announced, only to be constantly disappointed. At this point I've accepted that the game isn't an actual card game, and I'm just hoping they can at least make it fun, and eventually get their act together. I think TGT is the first step, as it tries to introduce a lot of new deck types. However the mana system is just god awful, and if it doesn't change, unless they make every good card THEME specific, there is gonna be power creep out the butt.

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typical mob throwing stones at something they cannot understand because it deviates from their narrow minded vision of utopia.

Oh great chimpanzee, please help us feeble minded complainers understand.  Help us understand what a wonderful thing Ice Rager and Heckler are for the game, how it makes the world a better place.  How it makes Hearthstone a better game.   I'm still waiting for a single good reason, why in a digital card game these cards were made.  

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Kripparian already called out power creep when he reviewed these cards.  It is good to see many people are upset, cause it really is inexcusable. This isn't some struggling indie company either, that can barely afford to keep the lights on.  They are making 20 million a month of the game, they don't need to pull shady money grubbing shenanigans like this.  It hurts their reputation, which has been up til now been very pristine.  

I'm ftp, never spent a penny and after this won't ever even consider it. I'll continue to play, for free, but can't financially support such business practices.

blizzard always "sand bags" in their games. they didn't make hearthstone because they had some great concept for a digital card game and wanted to try their hand. they made hearthstone because there was a huge market for it, and the company's name alone would carry the product.

if you want this to actually be a GOOD card game, you will have to wait a couple of expansions and let them get used to how developing a real card game goes.

I get where you're coming from, been playing card games since I was about 9, I am currently 28. I was anticipating this game since it was announced, only to be constantly disappointed. At this point I've accepted that the game isn't an actual card game, and I'm just hoping they can at least make it fun, and eventually get their act together. I think TGT is the first step, as it tries to introduce a lot of new deck types. However the mana system is just god awful, and if it doesn't change, unless they make every good card THEME specific, there is gonna be power creep out the butt.

You're the first person to ever call the mana system awful.

Go back to MTG and we won't miss you.

OR you could just open your eyes. I am also not the first person to call the mana system awful.

you see the effect of this mana system already controlling the game. 3 drops have to be 3/4 or better or they're bad. 4 drops is 4/5 or better unless your name is piloted shredder. the only way to make stats matter less is to power creep abilities on minions.

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Honestly, fuck people parroting "power creep" so much after Evil Heckler & Ice Rager were shown.
People using the words "Power Creep" when talking about these 2 cards CLEARLY don't understand what power creep means.
Though a valid point could be made for: "Why didn't Blizzard just patch Magma Rager & Booty Bay Bodyguard instead of releasing 2 new cards in a digital card game" but that's about it.

Agreed. Creating reasonable versions of terrible cards does not raise the power ceiling at all. If anything this thread should be thanking blizzard for not releasing another Dr. Boom, or another Piloted Shredder, or another Mad Scientist. Those are cards that actually pushed the power level past what we originally thought to be the limit for their respective mana slots. 

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That is where power creep leads us.

To ridiculously hysterical rants about how not being horrified by them printing an Ice Rager is tantamount to supporting slavery? Well, you got me. Power creep is definitely bad if it leads to consequences like that.