RIP It's too bad that those cards got nerfed (since Blizzard seems right on-cost compared to holy nova and consecrate) when the real problem was the burst potential of Pyroblast + Fireball. Frost Nova was, in theory, a bad card because it was a pure stall at the cost of a card. All these costing more makes them practically unplayable. Blizzard for 6? Might as well just Flame Strike for 7.
RIP It's too bad that those cards got nerfed (since Blizzard seems right on-cost compared to holy nova and consecrate) when the real problem was the burst potential of Pyroblast + Fireball. Frost Nova was, in theory, a bad card because it was a pure stall at the cost of a card. All these costing more makes them practically unplayable. Blizzard for 6? Might as well just Flame Strike for 7.
You can't look at cards at a one-to-one basis though. Every class has a different toolkit, and some cards are going to synergize better than others. Mages had way more freeze mechanics than any other class. Blizzard has said before, it's not fun being frozen turn after turn, and this is as much a balance change as it is one that will keep the game fun - for both players.
RIP It's too bad that those cards got nerfed (since Blizzard seems right on-cost compared to holy nova and consecrate) when the real problem was the burst potential of Pyroblast + Fireball. Frost Nova was, in theory, a bad card because it was a pure stall at the cost of a card. All these costing more makes them practically unplayable. Blizzard for 6? Might as well just Flame Strike for 7.
You can't look at cards at a one-to-one basis though. Every class has a different toolkit, and some cards are going to synergize better than others. Mages had way more freeze mechanics than any other class. Blizzard has said before, it's not fun being frozen turn after turn, and this is as much a balance change as it is one that will keep the game fun - for both players.
No, what is really fun is to spam minion after minion and just trade them all until someone dies.
No, what is really fun is to spam minion after minion and just trade them all until someone dies.
Fun is subjective. I thought countering the OTK hunter deck was fun, but a lot of people didn't apparently. I thought baiting out Mind Controls on crappier minions was fun, but a lot of people didn't apparently. I thought silencing my own fattie for a surprise attack was fun, but a lot of people didn't apparently.
Alas, this game will be balanced for the masses who are not spending time reading these forums, watching streams, and talking about crafting counters to meta. We have to adapt because they will not. So be it, keeps the game fresh, but expect the changes to die down when we move further into development.
Right now they can get away with more changes due to the smaller amount of people it will anger.
No, what is really fun is to spam minion after minion and just trade them all until someone dies.
Fun is subjective. I thought countering the OTK hunter deck was fun, but a lot of people didn't apparently. I thought baiting out Mind Controls on crappier minions was fun, but a lot of people didn't apparently. I thought silencing my own fattie for a surprise attack was fun, but a lot of people didn't apparently.
Alas, this game will be balanced for the masses who are not spending time reading these forums, watching streams, and talking about crafting counters to meta. We have to adapt because they will not. So be it, keeps the game fresh, but expect the changes to die down when we move further into development.
Right now they can get away with more changes due to the smaller amount of people it will anger.
Indeed, it is subjective. I don't mind if people think minion spam is fun, I just don't think it's fun when the game is heading to the point that it will be the ONLY viable strategy. I agree with everything you said, this seems to be the sad fate of Hearthstone...
RIP It's too bad that those cards got nerfed (since Blizzard seems right on-cost compared to holy nova and consecrate) when the real problem was the burst potential of Pyroblast + Fireball. Frost Nova was, in theory, a bad card because it was a pure stall at the cost of a card. All these costing more makes them practically unplayable. Blizzard for 6? Might as well just Flame Strike for 7.
Blizzard still has amazing utility besides it's AoE damage. It kills creatures and any creature that hasn't died won't be smashing face. That's a huge tempo advantage. You can get something similar in value from Holy Nova, but with less frequency because it requires having damaged creatures on your side to get the healing. Most of the time it's a consecrate that heals you for 2. Also any remaining creatures on the other side of the board still gets to swing back, so it's just not as strong. Consecrate just does 2 damage, no heal and no freeze. That is less powerful then the heal or freeze which is why it should cost less then both. To me the 6, 5, 4 costs for those cards respectively seem correct now. Let's also not forget Starfall which costs 5 and only hits for 2 on all minions. That doesn't hit the opponent, heal, or freeze however it costs more then Consecrate because of the flexibility to hit 1 target for 5. Since that still can't be directed at the opponent using that side of the card, I'd almost want that card at 4 with Consecrate, but you can make an argument at both costs. However my point is that if you compare Starfall to Blizzard still sitting at 5 mana it's no contest as the ability to freeze is stonger then the flexiblity to smash 1 target.
The result of these changes in my opinion means the mage is going to have to trade more of it's early game creatures instead of smashing face which delays when the burn can go in for the kill. It gives the other classes a fighting chance before they are in range of fiery death. Also the burn spells are really weak to life gain and you are starting to see some of that work it's way into decks that can have it efficiently. I think there is enough counter out there that I'm ok with the burn existing and at their costs for now. Overall the issue is the combination of board control / stalling and burn is what has made the mage so strong right now. If you nerf one half of the combo it should be enough to weaken it so it's not so OP but still effective. Why not go after the half that just is generally not fun to play against. Also you can counter burn, but you cannot counter freeze (yes you can silence the freeze but not really a good counter). So to me it seems right to focus on that first before turning their eyes on the burn.
Objectively looking at it, the history of Hearthstone hate has always been directed towards classes that they deemed "unfun"
The list really says it all: Miracle Rogue OTK Hunter Priests Freeze Mages
Three fourths of them were pretty much "single player"
Listen to this my friends. This just made my day seeing this. You are 100% right they want to make the game fun I heard kripp talk about how all of the good deck that people have ran are "Single player" (It means that you cant do anything about it all of the changes affected how the game was played) I love all of the Nerfs I think it really helps exact for the 2 health on shattered sun cleric that does nothing at all and that just inderectaly buffed mages for they blizzard. Also the Priest buff is not good at all I HATED GETTING MC'd but that doesn't mean they should just up the cost because now all of the mid-rage Priests can not end the game by taking something strong after they controlled the board with awkward removal
Really sad. This game had so much potential, but I guess Blizzard just wants to make a 100% minion-based game out of it...
Really?! Whole game is ruined? So many tears.. Seriously. The only people who are really upset are the people face rolling the OP class. It was needed.
These changes are totally warranted and fine - I play a Freeze Mage deck. It's not the only deck I play, but I do play it... All the people complaining really need to take a hard look at the game... Aishi is absolutely right:
Objectively looking at it, the history of Hearthstone hate has always been directed towards classes that they deemed "unfun"
The list really says it all: Miracle Rogue OTK Hunter Priests Freeze Mages
Three fourths of them were pretty much "single player"
It's objectively unfun to play vs a freeze deck where you can't do ANYTHING for 3-5 turns is ridiculous. That being said, I will be the first "Freeze Mage Player" to say it - this is not gonna be felt and we will still run these cards. Needs a bigger nerf.
Allow Priests to play mass dispel on their own minions?
Really sad. This game had so much potential, but I guess Blizzard just wants to make a 100% minion-based game out of it...
Really?! Whole game is ruined? So many tears.. Seriously. The only people who are really upset are the people face rolling the OP class. It was needed.
It's not the nerfs, it's the way they're taking the game with them. Like Aishi said, there's a pattern to these nerfs, which clearly states that they hate different ways to play it.
I NEVER SAID the game was ruined. It will be ruined soon, for people like me, who likes to play different strategies (which apparently are "unfun"). You can still play aggro all day, sure, if you think that's fun, than the game really delivers a very dinamic and intense experience.
Then again, I'm not sure why I'm explaining myself to you... You probably won't read this, like you didn't read my last post, which would help you understand my opinion (and you would also notice that I've never said the game was ruined).
Actually, from what I've seen these nerfs won't effect anything at all.
Being able to be completely frozen for up to four or more turns in a row is the real problem. I lost an arena I completely outplayed to a measly 6 damage output on their field, while I had over 40 a turn. They only had 4 hp left. But 3 blizzards, one frost nova, and two cones of cold held my side completely solid for that six small damage to take me from 30 to zero. *Also going through two large taunts* It was quite silly. Had I had just one minion, it would have been over.
However, I personally thought the cost of the cards landed in very good spots. It's the mechanic that was a problem. I had an idea the other night that maybe the solution is to make it more rng. Give frozen cards a 50% chance, per minion or character, to unfreeze the upcoming turn. Therefore, if you have four nasty minions on the field, the odds will be two will unfreeze. But then again, all might unfreeze, or stay frozen. Everything in this game is mostly rng. From the initial card draw, to nat pagle fishin', to Mr. Bomber. Freeze should be powerful, but in a way possibly unreliable. Maybe this would be a better solution? Thoughts?
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but the problem I've found is, most Mages were using one strategy -- delay with chained freezes -- then depending on how they finished their deck, Pyro/Fireball, Giants, etc -- most Mage decks were deviating ~5 cards out of 30. There wasn't (and still really isn't) any reasonable way to combat freeze, short of dropping a silence on one of your own minions to try to make some kind of headway. The cost was so low versus the effective immunity it gave the Mage for a whole turn.
It's one thing if you have a nice combo that, if the stars align, is awesome and really packs a punch. It's another thing entirely to be able to reach that specific win condition that often, with the other player losing the bulk of their turns.
That said, I'd be a bigger fan of taunt minions having to be targeted first for direct damage spells. That would allow taunt decks to counter pure spell decks, and increase the value of taunt.
Are you referring to me Danielsjt? Or another person? Because my solution could possibly solve the issue you just mentioned. On your turn, as in right after they have frozen you. Your minions have a 50% chance each to self unfreeze. *thaw out* They still completely unfreeze 100% of the time at the start of the opponents turn.
Course also having a mechanic to cause targeted spells to target a certain character would be interesting too.
Are you referring to me Danielsjt? Or another person? Because my solution could possibly solve the issue you just mentioned. On your turn, as in right after they have frozen you. Your minions have a 50% chance each to self unfreeze. *thaw out* They still completely unfreeze 100% of the time at the start of the opponents turn.
Course also having a mechanic to cause targeted spells to target a certain character would be interesting too.
It was in reply to someone else on up above, complaining that this change would limit strategies, when in reality, the flexibility in strategy is already compromised by it being a "FOTM" and most people effectively just spamming freeze to win conditions.
I'd also be in favor of an unthaw or resist mechanic for freeze, or maybe some mechanic to remove freeze. Maybe a Warlock could Hellfire to remove freeze. Eat damage, but free back up minions that are left standing, etc. I'm sure other classes could have something similar to counter it.
The more I think about it, the more I'd like to see freeze be "a chance to freeze" on these abilities, add some risk-reward to them. Maybe it hits and freezes your 8/8, but misses and doesn't freeze your 4/4, etc. At least give the other player possibly *something* productive to do on their next turn.
There are a lot of different solutions I was thinking of from. "If a minion takes any damage, remove freeze." However with blizzard they take damage so that would be awkward. But any other additional damage *flame blast, minion damage* would remove it. Cards that have silence can remove freeze but it's kind of a pain. And honestly this game is far too simple. There are no minions that I can pump mana into over and over for an effect, or anything like that. The idea is the mechanic chance would be a blanket solution. You don't need to run new cards, or craft new ones. It would just how freeze works now. And personally I liked that one the best, *the unfreeze on your turn* which is why I suggested it. I hate the idea of just changing mana costs. * But a tiny tweek to them might be needed anyway*
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"Cone of Cold, Blizzard and Frost Nova. These cards are all having their mana costs increased by one."
http://www.hearthpwn.com/news/232-hearthstone-update-arena-issue-and-upcoming
There ya go. Blizzard is nerfing what they consider to be unfun tactics once again.
Objectively looking at it, the history of Hearthstone hate has always been directed towards classes that they deemed "unfun"
The list really says it all:
Miracle Rogue
OTK Hunter
Priests
Freeze Mages
Three fourths of them were pretty much "single player"
http://www.youtube.com/user/vtxaishi
You're not going crazy, I edit 2~3 times each post
Really sad. This game had so much potential, but I guess Blizzard just wants to make a 100% minion-based game out of it...
I think these changes are warranted, it is only a 1 mana increase with the potential still being great.
Maybe people will start adapting and be more creative.
RIP
It's too bad that those cards got nerfed (since Blizzard seems right on-cost compared to holy nova and consecrate) when the real problem was the burst potential of Pyroblast + Fireball. Frost Nova was, in theory, a bad card because it was a pure stall at the cost of a card. All these costing more makes them practically unplayable. Blizzard for 6? Might as well just Flame Strike for 7.
http://www.twitch.tv/szsoulzek
You can't look at cards at a one-to-one basis though. Every class has a different toolkit, and some cards are going to synergize better than others. Mages had way more freeze mechanics than any other class. Blizzard has said before, it's not fun being frozen turn after turn, and this is as much a balance change as it is one that will keep the game fun - for both players.
No, what is really fun is to spam minion after minion and just trade them all until someone dies.
Fun is subjective. I thought countering the OTK hunter deck was fun, but a lot of people didn't apparently.
I thought baiting out Mind Controls on crappier minions was fun, but a lot of people didn't apparently.
I thought silencing my own fattie for a surprise attack was fun, but a lot of people didn't apparently.
Alas, this game will be balanced for the masses who are not spending time reading these forums, watching streams, and talking about crafting counters to meta. We have to adapt because they will not. So be it, keeps the game fresh, but expect the changes to die down when we move further into development.
Right now they can get away with more changes due to the smaller amount of people it will anger.
Indeed, it is subjective. I don't mind if people think minion spam is fun, I just don't think it's fun when the game is heading to the point that it will be the ONLY viable strategy. I agree with everything you said, this seems to be the sad fate of Hearthstone...
Blizzard still has amazing utility besides it's AoE damage. It kills creatures and any creature that hasn't died won't be smashing face. That's a huge tempo advantage. You can get something similar in value from Holy Nova, but with less frequency because it requires having damaged creatures on your side to get the healing. Most of the time it's a consecrate that heals you for 2. Also any remaining creatures on the other side of the board still gets to swing back, so it's just not as strong. Consecrate just does 2 damage, no heal and no freeze. That is less powerful then the heal or freeze which is why it should cost less then both. To me the 6, 5, 4 costs for those cards respectively seem correct now. Let's also not forget Starfall which costs 5 and only hits for 2 on all minions. That doesn't hit the opponent, heal, or freeze however it costs more then Consecrate because of the flexibility to hit 1 target for 5. Since that still can't be directed at the opponent using that side of the card, I'd almost want that card at 4 with Consecrate, but you can make an argument at both costs. However my point is that if you compare Starfall to Blizzard still sitting at 5 mana it's no contest as the ability to freeze is stonger then the flexiblity to smash 1 target.
The result of these changes in my opinion means the mage is going to have to trade more of it's early game creatures instead of smashing face which delays when the burn can go in for the kill. It gives the other classes a fighting chance before they are in range of fiery death. Also the burn spells are really weak to life gain and you are starting to see some of that work it's way into decks that can have it efficiently. I think there is enough counter out there that I'm ok with the burn existing and at their costs for now. Overall the issue is the combination of board control / stalling and burn is what has made the mage so strong right now. If you nerf one half of the combo it should be enough to weaken it so it's not so OP but still effective. Why not go after the half that just is generally not fun to play against. Also you can counter burn, but you cannot counter freeze (yes you can silence the freeze but not really a good counter). So to me it seems right to focus on that first before turning their eyes on the burn.
Listen to this my friends. This just made my day seeing this. You are 100% right they want to make the game fun I heard kripp talk about how all of the good deck that people have ran are "Single player" (It means that you cant do anything about it all of the changes affected how the game was played) I love all of the Nerfs I think it really helps exact for the 2 health on shattered sun cleric that does nothing at all and that just inderectaly buffed mages for they blizzard. Also the Priest buff is not good at all I HATED GETTING MC'd but that doesn't mean they should just up the cost because now all of the mid-rage Priests can not end the game by taking something strong after they controlled the board with awkward removal
Thoughts?
(Thanks Aishi)
Really?! Whole game is ruined? So many tears.. Seriously. The only people who are really upset are the people face rolling the OP class. It was needed.
These changes are totally warranted and fine - I play a Freeze Mage deck. It's not the only deck I play, but I do play it... All the people complaining really need to take a hard look at the game... Aishi is absolutely right:
It's objectively unfun to play vs a freeze deck where you can't do ANYTHING for 3-5 turns is ridiculous. That being said, I will be the first "Freeze Mage Player" to say it - this is not gonna be felt and we will still run these cards. Needs a bigger nerf.
Allow Priests to play mass dispel on their own minions?
'Go home and be a family man!'
Decks (Current as of 12/28):
Sonic boom! | Iron Juggernaut | Rogue
It's not the nerfs, it's the way they're taking the game with them. Like Aishi said, there's a pattern to these nerfs, which clearly states that they hate different ways to play it.
I NEVER SAID the game was ruined. It will be ruined soon, for people like me, who likes to play different strategies (which apparently are "unfun"). You can still play aggro all day, sure, if you think that's fun, than the game really delivers a very dinamic and intense experience.
Then again, I'm not sure why I'm explaining myself to you... You probably won't read this, like you didn't read my last post, which would help you understand my opinion (and you would also notice that I've never said the game was ruined).
Actually, from what I've seen these nerfs won't effect anything at all.
Being able to be completely frozen for up to four or more turns in a row is the real problem. I lost an arena I completely outplayed to a measly 6 damage output on their field, while I had over 40 a turn. They only had 4 hp left. But 3 blizzards, one frost nova, and two cones of cold held my side completely solid for that six small damage to take me from 30 to zero. *Also going through two large taunts* It was quite silly. Had I had just one minion, it would have been over.
However, I personally thought the cost of the cards landed in very good spots. It's the mechanic that was a problem. I had an idea the other night that maybe the solution is to make it more rng. Give frozen cards a 50% chance, per minion or character, to unfreeze the upcoming turn. Therefore, if you have four nasty minions on the field, the odds will be two will unfreeze. But then again, all might unfreeze, or stay frozen. Everything in this game is mostly rng. From the initial card draw, to nat pagle fishin', to Mr. Bomber. Freeze should be powerful, but in a way possibly unreliable. Maybe this would be a better solution? Thoughts?
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but the problem I've found is, most Mages were using one strategy -- delay with chained freezes -- then depending on how they finished their deck, Pyro/Fireball, Giants, etc -- most Mage decks were deviating ~5 cards out of 30. There wasn't (and still really isn't) any reasonable way to combat freeze, short of dropping a silence on one of your own minions to try to make some kind of headway. The cost was so low versus the effective immunity it gave the Mage for a whole turn.
It's one thing if you have a nice combo that, if the stars align, is awesome and really packs a punch. It's another thing entirely to be able to reach that specific win condition that often, with the other player losing the bulk of their turns.
That said, I'd be a bigger fan of taunt minions having to be targeted first for direct damage spells. That would allow taunt decks to counter pure spell decks, and increase the value of taunt.
Are you referring to me Danielsjt? Or another person? Because my solution could possibly solve the issue you just mentioned. On your turn, as in right after they have frozen you. Your minions have a 50% chance each to self unfreeze. *thaw out* They still completely unfreeze 100% of the time at the start of the opponents turn.
Course also having a mechanic to cause targeted spells to target a certain character would be interesting too.
It was in reply to someone else on up above, complaining that this change would limit strategies, when in reality, the flexibility in strategy is already compromised by it being a "FOTM" and most people effectively just spamming freeze to win conditions.
I'd also be in favor of an unthaw or resist mechanic for freeze, or maybe some mechanic to remove freeze. Maybe a Warlock could Hellfire to remove freeze. Eat damage, but free back up minions that are left standing, etc. I'm sure other classes could have something similar to counter it.
The more I think about it, the more I'd like to see freeze be "a chance to freeze" on these abilities, add some risk-reward to them. Maybe it hits and freezes your 8/8, but misses and doesn't freeze your 4/4, etc. At least give the other player possibly *something* productive to do on their next turn.
There are a lot of different solutions I was thinking of from. "If a minion takes any damage, remove freeze." However with blizzard they take damage so that would be awkward. But any other additional damage *flame blast, minion damage* would remove it. Cards that have silence can remove freeze but it's kind of a pain. And honestly this game is far too simple. There are no minions that I can pump mana into over and over for an effect, or anything like that. The idea is the mechanic chance would be a blanket solution. You don't need to run new cards, or craft new ones. It would just how freeze works now. And personally I liked that one the best, *the unfreeze on your turn* which is why I suggested it. I hate the idea of just changing mana costs. * But a tiny tweek to them might be needed anyway*