QQ moar mages. I don't understand why you would play the most powerful class anyway. I'm fine if you were playing mage before this strategy got discovered though.
Nice to see some pr0 players think the real problem is Ice Block too. Being "spamming" this the last days in some mage threads. That secret is nuts, better nerf it so you can't run two in a row (or just insert any other new and fresh idea for it) and nerf Frost Nova to 3 mana, but keep CoC and Blizzard as they are now. My opinion is plain bullshit anyway, but there is.
Enjoy the last days of snowballing like mad, something like this had to happen D:
I like the ideas people put forward to combat freezing with your own cards rather than nerfs to the mana value of the freeze cards. The problem with freeze is you can't change the meta by playing immune to freeze cards or freeze counter cards because they don't exist. Imagine how bad frost nova would be as a card if people could counter it with a secret or a spell reflect minion or whatever. Freeze is only good because there is no good counter to chain freezing in the game.
Nice to see some pr0 players think the real problem is Ice Block too. Being "spamming" this the last days in some mage threads. That secret is nuts, better nerf it so you can't run two in a row (or just insert any other new and fresh idea for it) and nerf Frost Nova to 3 mana, but keep CoC and Blizzard as they are now. My opinion is plain bullshit anyway, but there is.
Enjoy the last days of snowballing like mad, something like this had to happen D:
Actually, as a Mage player and someone who really understands how it works (at least from my perspective, since I was saying everything the pros are saying now a while ago), I can say your opinion is pretty close to what they should do. Except for Frost Nova, it should be 2 mana. It's Pyroblast who should be 9 mana, to avoid Pyro + Nova on t10.
Really laughing hard when I see some people say that the problem is pyro+fireballs and the direct dmg, instead od freezes...Dmg is pretty much straightforward, and can be played around, whereas with freezes you literally couldn't do a thing, like with OTK hunter, no matter what you did, if mage got his cards, you didn't stand a chance. 6 freezes, from turn 2, and at turn 7 flamestrike...Now with cost increase at least you might get a turn or two more to actually use your minions, and maybe, just maybe, kill the damn mages before they start hitting your face with all those pyros.
Ooh... Another one talking about the "Mage's magic wonderland of turn 2 6 freeze cards". Bonus points for the "yada yada I wanna play the minion game but Mages won't let me". But just so you know, they did NOT nerf Ice Block, which was the only thing stopping you anyway...
Nice to see some pr0 players think the real problem is Ice Block too. Being "spamming" this the last days in some mage threads. That secret is nuts, better nerf it so you can't run two in a row (or just insert any other new and fresh idea for it) and nerf Frost Nova to 3 mana, but keep CoC and Blizzard as they are now. My opinion is plain bullshit anyway, but there is.
Enjoy the last days of snowballing like mad, something like this had to happen D:
Actually, as a Mage player and someone who really understands how it works (at least from my perspective, since I was saying everything the pros are saying now a while ago), I can say your opinion is pretty close to what they should do. Except for Frost Nova, it should be 2 mana. It's Pyroblast who should be 9 mana, to avoid Pyro + Nova on t10.
Well, that's exactly my point for the 3 cost nova, so that way, with Pyro costing 9 mana, would work too, but I think that's a harder nerf, actually. No more Pyro + Frost Bolt (or Ice Lances). In fact, as a mage "hater" I would prefer what you suggest. Gotta say we can agree with that :D
Nice to see some pr0 players think the real problem is Ice Block too. Being "spamming" this the last days in some mage threads. That secret is nuts, better nerf it so you can't run two in a row (or just insert any other new and fresh idea for it) and nerf Frost Nova to 3 mana, but keep CoC and Blizzard as they are now. My opinion is plain bullshit anyway, but there is.
Enjoy the last days of snowballing like mad, something like this had to happen D:
Actually, as a Mage player and someone who really understands how it works (at least from my perspective, since I was saying everything the pros are saying now a while ago), I can say your opinion is pretty close to what they should do. Except for Frost Nova, it should be 2 mana. It's Pyroblast who should be 9 mana, to avoid Pyro + Nova on t10.
Well, that's exactly my point for the 3 cost nova, so that way, with Pyro costing 9 mana, would work too, but I think that's a harder nerf, actually. No more Pyro + Frost Bolt (or Ice Lances). In fact, as a mage "hater" I would prefer what you suggest. Gotta say we can agree with that :D
Believe me. A turn 9 pyro would nerf both Mage aggro (which is pretty DARN strong as well) and Mage Control, without destroying Mage Control completely and rendering Mage Aggro's already limited board control useless as well.
Nice to see some pr0 players think the real problem is Ice Block too. Being "spamming" this the last days in some mage threads. That secret is nuts, better nerf it so you can't run two in a row (or just insert any other new and fresh idea for it) and nerf Frost Nova to 3 mana, but keep CoC and Blizzard as they are now. My opinion is plain bullshit anyway, but there is.
Enjoy the last days of snowballing like mad, something like this had to happen D:
Actually, as a Mage player and someone who really understands how it works (at least from my perspective, since I was saying everything the pros are saying now a while ago), I can say your opinion is pretty close to what they should do. Except for Frost Nova, it should be 2 mana. It's Pyroblast who should be 9 mana, to avoid Pyro + Nova on t10.
Well, that's exactly my point for the 3 cost nova, so that way, with Pyro costing 9 mana, would work too, but I think that's a harder nerf, actually. No more Pyro + Frost Bolt (or Ice Lances). In fact, as a mage "hater" I would prefer what you suggest. Gotta say we can agree with that :D
Believe me. A turn 9 pyro would nerf both Mage aggro (which is pretty DARN strong as well) and Mage Control, without destroying Mage Control completely and rendering Mage Aggro's already limited board control useless as well.
Yeh, yeh, I trust you :D
But I think that if Blizzard says now that they keep Nova at 2 mana and nerf Pyro to 9, the ammount of mage players exploding would be insane. But I get your point, and like what you suggest much more than the announced changes :3
I don't see this being much of a nerf, but that's just my opinion. Mages still have a good stall game and excellent direct damage. By increasing mana cost by one on everything they have basically given us one extra turn (very early extra turn). The majority of games played against mages didn't come down to "if I only had one more turn early on...." The actual mechanic of freeze needs to be reworked or the ability to counter freezes (besides silence). Playing mages will still basically mean that if you are under 20hp you can die in two turns no matter what is on your board.
Edit: the more I think about freeze effect, I consider myself thinking that it would be amazing if 'characters can't be frozen in subsequent turns.' This might be drastic, but I like this idea.
No, the increase in mana cost doesn't "just give opponents another turn". It is making many plays impossible - Pyro+Nova, Azure Drake for a chance to draw Blizzard, etc. Plus it postpones Mage AoE, making the class more vulnerable to rush decks.
Stalling the game for 6 turns definitely feels very strong, especially when the Mage bombards with spells in the mean time. But increasing mana cost of all these spells at once... I think it's too much. Frost Nova is a crappy card unless you build your deck around buying yourself time with freezes. It has a powerful synergy with Pyroblast, so increasing it's manacost to 3 seems logical. Cone of Cold is a versatile defense/removal/stalling card. But at 4 mana it's so inefficient, it can't really be considered removal anymore imo.
Blizzard is the worst though. Compare it to Lightning Storm - a 2-3 damage across the board for 3 mana (5 overall, but it's flexible, available at turn 2-3). Blizzard for 6 basically means that freeze effect costs 3 mana. Mage theme is mana efficient spell damage. There's nothing efficient in Blizzard for 6. Might as well Flamestrike for 7. But all these changes push Mage from the unique AoE potential at almost all turns, to only turn 6-7 board swipes.
I think nerfing Cone of Cold and especially Blizzard in such a way hurts the class itself a lot, despite the change being aimed at stalling control decks, Both cards look like shit with +1 manacost added. I'm not seeing myself running them a lot. I'd rather they removed Ice Block entirely. Or changed it to work with minions - if your minion receives fatal damage, prevent it and make it immune this turn. Should work with removals like Assassinate I think.
While I will agree with you that it makes it harder to play two cards at once, I don't think I have ever been pyro blasted and frost novaed in the same turn. That's 10 mana, or as at least was 10. Typically by turn 8 I am already below 20hp, so best case scenario he uses pyro for all 8 mana and leaves himself open to my attack and leaving me with roughly 10hp. Even if I can do fatal damage to him he will have iceblock ready for me and kill me next turn regardless of using multiple spells. This of course is a rare scenario (that seems less rare whenever I play mages) and maybe I am still QQing to myself about all the mages, but this nerf just doesn't seem like it will change much =\ hopefully I am wrong and you are right.
Well, that was a rough nerf. Can't say that i've found the freeze mechanic to be that annoying but that most likely due to the kind of decks I'm playing. Regardless, the Mage class still have enough tools available to remain viable, it's not the end of the world for them.
The biggest concern for the general class strength would be the Blizzard change. No "strong" board clear until turn 6 is going to be rough against faster decks, which most of them are nowadays. Maybe the change was a bit over the board, but only time and testing can tell that. Will be interesting to see how the class adapt to the new vulnerability.
Honestly, in my opinion, the cost of these cards where perfect as is. With +1 more cost, they will be significantly worse.. As they're really the only thing to hold back aggro consistently right now (yes I know there are other options, but not quite as good).
Now, that doesn't mean I'm against nerfing the freeze cards. But I think a better option would've been to target one of them, as opposed to all three. Many of us agreed that it's the constant freeze which makes it difficult and "unfun", am I right? Wouldn't it have been better to just re-work one of the cards, essentially removing that third freeze? Honestly keeping Cone of Colds and Blizzards are enough, and fair if you ask me. Perhaps just rework Frost Nova into some other card that wouldn't fit the turn 2-5 freeze spam?
my preference would have been to keep the mana cost the same but add in a modifier like "blizzard freezes all minions with a play cost of X or less". this way you could still hammer weenie decks but wouldnt get to own the mid game too which is what the problem was imo.
mages do have other spells that were generally ignored like arcane explosion and arcane missile both of which combo nicely off wild pyromancer and apprentice so maybe those see more play.
mages still have ice block and incredible burn spells. i doubt they are going away.
Mages are probably in more trouble than you think. Stalls are delayed to turn 6? CoC cant stop Zerg until turn 4? Ice block is useless if your HP is close to 0 because it doesnt buy you 2 turns.
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Nozdormu wins you every game where you opponent has to go to the bathroom on turn 9.
Well, that was a rough nerf. Can't say that i've found the freeze mechanic to be that annoying but that most likely due to the kind of decks I'm playing. Regardless, the Mage class still have enough tools available to remain viable, it's not the end of the world for them.
The biggest concern for the general class strength would be the Blizzard change. No "strong" board clear until turn 6 is going to be rough against faster decks, which most of them are nowadays. Maybe the change was a bit over the board, but only time and testing can tell that. Will be interesting to see how the class adapt to the new vulnerability.
It's the end of Mage as we know it. Now we'll have to start from scratch.
And that's not the worst of it. I could care less about any nerfs, if they did'n mean "let's bring aggro back again"...
blizzard to 1 dmg with the freeze, ice lance to freeze or 3 dmg if frozen, ice block leaves you at 1 HP after the immune fades and pyro to 9 mana would have been my thought for how to nerf mage
I think the idea of a RNG component to freeze is pretty great and fits into the flavor of hearthstone without being too messy to keep track of (such as no freezing on consecutive turns). Too bad that didn't get a shot. Count me in as one who is glad mage was nerfed, but thinks it was hit too hard. These cards are now much less playable, hardly playable in arena. Wasn't the obvious solution just to get rid of frost nova? It takes a little bit of the bite out of freeze while still making it a viable strategy. The card is pretty similar to cone of cold, but much less interesting. Two AOE freezes plus one targeted freeze (even though FB is normally used for removal) plus a minion that freezes is plenty. EDIT: forgot ice lance. Like I said, plenty of freeze still but a little less AOE. Blizzard went from being a monster turn-5-lifesaver against aggro decks to being flamestrike-lite.
Also, I agree with the people that think ice block was the biggest problem.
I could understand the popularity of Mage has to be somewhat addressed by Blizzard, especially before the open beta begins. It is not fun to play against the same class over and over again for us and for the new comers, and even less fun with how freeze is designed to not allowing your minions to attack anything for a whole turn. However, I believe a nerf like this won't kill the Mage class, people will find a work around as it has always been. There may be less Frost giant control mages for a few days, but soon a somewhat modified version will return.
Actually, as a Mage player and someone who really understands how it works (at least from my perspective, since I was saying everything the pros are saying now a while ago)
Could you please get over yourself? I've been lurking here for only a short while now but when I read your posts, I mostly disagree and already remember you for that. You were the one who said Mages weren't OP when they went 8/8 in that Managrind tournament. Now you say the class is dead because some cards will cost more mana before even playing with those changes. I have no issues with your definitions of fun though I don't share them. But please respect that many people dislike denial cards like freeze here or counters in Magic. They sure have their place in these games and I can imagine your devilish grin when you use them. The issue is the sheer amount of freeze. If it wasn't freeze every unit every turn for 6 times, people wouldn't complain so much.
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QQ moar mages. I don't understand why you would play the most powerful class anyway. I'm fine if you were playing mage before this strategy got discovered though.
Arena Tips
Let's try to remain objective about the change without letting feelings come into play.
Here's some good insight about the new changes from some notable players:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=438635
Nice to see some pr0 players think the real problem is Ice Block too. Being "spamming" this the last days in some mage threads. That secret is nuts, better nerf it so you can't run two in a row (or just insert any other new and fresh idea for it) and nerf Frost Nova to 3 mana, but keep CoC and Blizzard as they are now. My opinion is plain bullshit anyway, but there is.
Enjoy the last days of snowballing like mad, something like this had to happen D:
I like the ideas people put forward to combat freezing with your own cards rather than nerfs to the mana value of the freeze cards. The problem with freeze is you can't change the meta by playing immune to freeze cards or freeze counter cards because they don't exist. Imagine how bad frost nova would be as a card if people could counter it with a secret or a spell reflect minion or whatever. Freeze is only good because there is no good counter to chain freezing in the game.
Actually, as a Mage player and someone who really understands how it works (at least from my perspective, since I was saying everything the pros are saying now a while ago), I can say your opinion is pretty close to what they should do. Except for Frost Nova, it should be 2 mana. It's Pyroblast who should be 9 mana, to avoid Pyro + Nova on t10.
Ooh... Another one talking about the "Mage's magic wonderland of turn 2 6 freeze cards". Bonus points for the "yada yada I wanna play the minion game but Mages won't let me". But just so you know, they did NOT nerf Ice Block, which was the only thing stopping you anyway...
Well, that's exactly my point for the 3 cost nova, so that way, with Pyro costing 9 mana, would work too, but I think that's a harder nerf, actually. No more Pyro + Frost Bolt (or Ice Lances). In fact, as a mage "hater" I would prefer what you suggest. Gotta say we can agree with that :D
Believe me. A turn 9 pyro would nerf both Mage aggro (which is pretty DARN strong as well) and Mage Control, without destroying Mage Control completely and rendering Mage Aggro's already limited board control useless as well.
Yeh, yeh, I trust you :D
But I think that if Blizzard says now that they keep Nova at 2 mana and nerf Pyro to 9, the ammount of mage players exploding would be insane. But I get your point, and like what you suggest much more than the announced changes :3
I don't see this being much of a nerf, but that's just my opinion. Mages still have a good stall game and excellent direct damage. By increasing mana cost by one on everything they have basically given us one extra turn (very early extra turn). The majority of games played against mages didn't come down to "if I only had one more turn early on...." The actual mechanic of freeze needs to be reworked or the ability to counter freezes (besides silence). Playing mages will still basically mean that if you are under 20hp you can die in two turns no matter what is on your board.
Edit: the more I think about freeze effect, I consider myself thinking that it would be amazing if 'characters can't be frozen in subsequent turns.' This might be drastic, but I like this idea.
No, the increase in mana cost doesn't "just give opponents another turn". It is making many plays impossible - Pyro+Nova, Azure Drake for a chance to draw Blizzard, etc. Plus it postpones Mage AoE, making the class more vulnerable to rush decks.
Stalling the game for 6 turns definitely feels very strong, especially when the Mage bombards with spells in the mean time. But increasing mana cost of all these spells at once... I think it's too much. Frost Nova is a crappy card unless you build your deck around buying yourself time with freezes. It has a powerful synergy with Pyroblast, so increasing it's manacost to 3 seems logical. Cone of Cold is a versatile defense/removal/stalling card. But at 4 mana it's so inefficient, it can't really be considered removal anymore imo.
Blizzard is the worst though. Compare it to Lightning Storm - a 2-3 damage across the board for 3 mana (5 overall, but it's flexible, available at turn 2-3). Blizzard for 6 basically means that freeze effect costs 3 mana. Mage theme is mana efficient spell damage. There's nothing efficient in Blizzard for 6. Might as well Flamestrike for 7. But all these changes push Mage from the unique AoE potential at almost all turns, to only turn 6-7 board swipes.
I think nerfing Cone of Cold and especially Blizzard in such a way hurts the class itself a lot, despite the change being aimed at stalling control decks, Both cards look like shit with +1 manacost added. I'm not seeing myself running them a lot. I'd rather they removed Ice Block entirely. Or changed it to work with minions - if your minion receives fatal damage, prevent it and make it immune this turn. Should work with removals like Assassinate I think.
While I will agree with you that it makes it harder to play two cards at once, I don't think I have ever been pyro blasted and frost novaed in the same turn. That's 10 mana, or as at least was 10. Typically by turn 8 I am already below 20hp, so best case scenario he uses pyro for all 8 mana and leaves himself open to my attack and leaving me with roughly 10hp. Even if I can do fatal damage to him he will have iceblock ready for me and kill me next turn regardless of using multiple spells. This of course is a rare scenario (that seems less rare whenever I play mages) and maybe I am still QQing to myself about all the mages, but this nerf just doesn't seem like it will change much =\ hopefully I am wrong and you are right.
Well, that was a rough nerf. Can't say that i've found the freeze mechanic to be that annoying but that most likely due to the kind of decks I'm playing. Regardless, the Mage class still have enough tools available to remain viable, it's not the end of the world for them.
The biggest concern for the general class strength would be the Blizzard change. No "strong" board clear until turn 6 is going to be rough against faster decks, which most of them are nowadays. Maybe the change was a bit over the board, but only time and testing can tell that. Will be interesting to see how the class adapt to the new vulnerability.
Honestly, in my opinion, the cost of these cards where perfect as is. With +1 more cost, they will be significantly worse.. As they're really the only thing to hold back aggro consistently right now (yes I know there are other options, but not quite as good).
Now, that doesn't mean I'm against nerfing the freeze cards. But I think a better option would've been to target one of them, as opposed to all three. Many of us agreed that it's the constant freeze which makes it difficult and "unfun", am I right? Wouldn't it have been better to just re-work one of the cards, essentially removing that third freeze? Honestly keeping Cone of Colds and Blizzards are enough, and fair if you ask me. Perhaps just rework Frost Nova into some other card that wouldn't fit the turn 2-5 freeze spam?
Just my thoughts.
my preference would have been to keep the mana cost the same but add in a modifier like "blizzard freezes all minions with a play cost of X or less". this way you could still hammer weenie decks but wouldnt get to own the mid game too which is what the problem was imo.
mages do have other spells that were generally ignored like arcane explosion and arcane missile both of which combo nicely off wild pyromancer and apprentice so maybe those see more play.
mages still have ice block and incredible burn spells. i doubt they are going away.
Mages are probably in more trouble than you think. Stalls are delayed to turn 6? CoC cant stop Zerg until turn 4? Ice block is useless if your HP is close to 0 because it doesnt buy you 2 turns.
Nozdormu wins you every game where you opponent has to go to the bathroom on turn 9.
It's the end of Mage as we know it. Now we'll have to start from scratch.
And that's not the worst of it. I could care less about any nerfs, if they did'n mean "let's bring aggro back again"...
i agree is overkill
blizzard to 1 dmg with the freeze, ice lance to freeze or 3 dmg if frozen, ice block leaves you at 1 HP after the immune fades and pyro to 9 mana would have been my thought for how to nerf mage
I think the idea of a RNG component to freeze is pretty great and fits into the flavor of hearthstone without being too messy to keep track of (such as no freezing on consecutive turns). Too bad that didn't get a shot. Count me in as one who is glad mage was nerfed, but thinks it was hit too hard. These cards are now much less playable, hardly playable in arena. Wasn't the obvious solution just to get rid of frost nova? It takes a little bit of the bite out of freeze while still making it a viable strategy. The card is pretty similar to cone of cold, but much less interesting. Two AOE freezes plus one targeted freeze (even though FB is normally used for removal) plus a minion that freezes is plenty. EDIT: forgot ice lance. Like I said, plenty of freeze still but a little less AOE. Blizzard went from being a monster turn-5-lifesaver against aggro decks to being flamestrike-lite.
Also, I agree with the people that think ice block was the biggest problem.
I could understand the popularity of Mage has to be somewhat addressed by Blizzard, especially before the open beta begins. It is not fun to play against the same class over and over again for us and for the new comers, and even less fun with how freeze is designed to not allowing your minions to attack anything for a whole turn. However, I believe a nerf like this won't kill the Mage class, people will find a work around as it has always been. There may be less Frost giant control mages for a few days, but soon a somewhat modified version will return.
Could you please get over yourself?
I've been lurking here for only a short while now but when I read your posts, I mostly disagree and already remember you for that. You were the one who said Mages weren't OP when they went 8/8 in that Managrind tournament. Now you say the class is dead because some cards will cost more mana before even playing with those changes.
I have no issues with your definitions of fun though I don't share them. But please respect that many people dislike denial cards like freeze here or counters in Magic. They sure have their place in these games and I can imagine your devilish grin when you use them. The issue is the sheer amount of freeze. If it wasn't freeze every unit every turn for 6 times, people wouldn't complain so much.