This is absolutely not true. When you are topdecking, this does not allow you to draw an additional card, which makes it much worse than Novice. And when you have a board, this is a 2 mana 1/2 with no effect, which is obviously also worse than Novice. Having a board is a pretty common occurrence, as is topdecking- I believe that it is often better than Novice, but the variety of situations where it is worse makes it balanced.
Thank you. I did not even realize that point myself.
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"You keep him in here, and make sure, he doesn't leave the room."
It's perfectly well balanced because it is a warlock card.
I first thought it was very strong because the old Novice Engineer came to mind.
But it doesn't really make sense to run cycle in warlock since they get it at a discount.
This effect is the same as running post-nerf Novice Engineer in paladin which is the same as just hero powering.
Are you seriously comparing clicking a button, which doesn't spend any cards, to a card that has the same effect/mana cost of a button? REALLY? That fact alone makes it clear you're not really paying attention to the situation. You're dismissing the deck slot you had to spend, you're dismissing the fact you'll cycle a card. It's a world of a difference in terms of balance.
It doesn't make sense to run cycle cards in warlock, agreed. Except that this is AT WORST an OP pre-nerf cycle alone. This is a card that DEMANDS your opponent to remove it, how hard can it be to grasp this? You know when your opponent plays brann, thaurissan or fendral? You know that bitter feeling in your mouth when you have no fast cards available to remove them, knowing that you're about to get buried in value? Exactly. That's why you can't have too many of these "have to remove" cards. 2 mana, random body, draw 2 cards, can you even fathom how insane this is? If it lives only one single little turn, you get to draw the second card and potentially shadow bolt the minion the guy played to contest your dude. How is this not utterly broken?
On turn 2, this is better than Novice Engineer. When you're topdecking... Not so much. More or less a 1/2 restore 2 health to your hero, but only if you don't have a board.
Besides, Warlock rarely needs the additional draw...
The only reason novice was even cited is to show that IN THE WORST POSSIBLE SCENARIO, it is a BETTER novice.
This is absolutely not true. When you are topdecking, this does not allow you to draw an additional card, which makes it much worse than Novice. And when you have a board, this is a 2 mana 1/2 with no effect, which is obviously also worse than Novice. Having a board is a pretty common occurrence, as is topdecking- I believe that it is often better than Novice, but the variety of situations where it is worse makes it balanced.
You keep forgetting you don't NEED this card to be played to get the draw, you still have your hero power, for christ sake, think it trough.
It is a better novice, and I'll explain it again. This card HAS to be removed, otherwise it's a 2 mana 1/2: draw 2 cards. If you don't remove it again, it's a 2 mana 1/2: draw 3 cards. This will FORCE your opponent to either have a board and deal with it or have a fast card and SPEND IT. How can you not see that a 2 mana 1/2, draw a card, force your opponent to deal with it is not just a mere 1/2 draw a card, WHICH IS ALREADY OP?
You don't NEED to play it if you topdeck it and you have a board, but you still have you hero power, it's not like now you topdecked it and can't draw a card for christ sake. Hell, in some cases you just play it for tempo, who cares? Look at all the benefits you get from it and tell me you think this is not worth a slot in any control deck, maybe even midrangy decks?
Either way as a control deck you'll be wiping the board constantly, what stops you from twisting nether, play this dude and tap for free? Do the same with hellfire turn 6, and so on? God, you're like trying so hard to make the card look bad, when just looking at it you know it's not.
It's perfectly well balanced because it is a warlock card.
I first thought it was very strong because the old Novice Engineer came to mind.
But it doesn't really make sense to run cycle in warlock since they get it at a discount.
This effect is the same as running post-nerf Novice Engineer in paladin which is the same as just hero powering.
Are you seriously comparing clicking a button, which doesn't spend any cards, to a card that has the same effect/mana cost of a button? REALLY? That fact alone makes it clear you're not really paying attention to the situation. You're dismissing the deck slot you had to spend, you're dismissing the fact you'll cycle a card. It's a world of a difference in terms of balance.
It doesn't make sense to run cycle cards in warlock, agreed. Except that this is AT WORST an OP pre-nerf cycle alone. This is a card that DEMANDS your opponent to remove it, how hard can it be to grasp this? You know when your opponent plays brann, thaurissan or fendral? You know that bitter feeling in your mouth when you have no fast cards available to remove them, knowing that you're about to get buried in value? Exactly. That's why you can't have too many of these "have to remove" cards. 2 mana, random body, draw 2 cards, can you even fathom how insane this is? If it lives only one single little turn, you get to draw the second card and potentially shadow bolt the minion the guy played to contest your dude. How is this not utterly broken?
On turn 2, this is better than Novice Engineer. When you're topdecking... Not so much. More or less a 1/2 restore 2 health to your hero, but only if you don't have a board.
Besides, Warlock rarely needs the additional draw...
The only reason novice was even cited is to show that IN THE WORST POSSIBLE SCENARIO, it is a BETTER novice.
This is absolutely not true. When you are topdecking, this does not allow you to draw an additional card, which makes it much worse than Novice. And when you have a board, this is a 2 mana 1/2 with no effect, which is obviously also worse than Novice. Having a board is a pretty common occurrence, as is topdecking- I believe that it is often better than Novice, but the variety of situations where it is worse makes it balanced.
You keep forgetting you don't NEED this card to be played to get the draw, you still have your hero power, for christ sake, think it trough.
It is a better novice, and I'll explain it again. This card HAS to be removed, otherwise it's a 2 mana 1/2: draw 2 cards. If you don't remove it again, it's a 2 mana 1/2: draw 3 cards. This will FORCE your opponent to either have a board and deal with it or have a fast card and SPEND IT. How can you not see that a 2 mana 1/2, draw a card, force your opponent to deal with it is not just a mere 1/2 draw a card, WHICH IS ALREADY OP?
You don't NEED to play it if you topdeck it and you have a board, but you still have you hero power, it's not like now you topdecked it and can't draw a card for christ sake. Hell, in some cases you just play it for tempo, who cares? Look at all the benefits you get from it and tell me you think this is not worth a slot in any control deck, maybe even midrangy decks?
Either way as a control deck you'll be wiping the board constantly, what stops you from twisting nether, play this dude and tap for free? Do the same with hellfire turn 6, and so on? God, you're like trying so hard to make the card look bad, when just looking at it you know it's not.
You can, in fact, compare this pretty well to Mana Tide Totem- you NEED to remove it, or it will generate some crazy value. Of course, this costs 1 less mana (and has +1/-1), but consider the downside: you can't get the additional value if you have a board. Imagine if Mana Tide Totem didn't function if you had a board... It would be unplayable. Obviously the cards are pretty different, but the power level is very comparable to Mana Tide Totem- 1 mana less, but conditional.
As to topdecking- I'm not saying that you need to play it if you draw it. I'm saying that when you're topdecking, it is worse than Novice Engineer- with Novice, you can draw a card, then Life Tap for another card if you want. With this, you can only get one additional card.
And yes, when you combo the card with a board wipe, it is better than Novice Engineer- it's actually a very solid combo. But this is precisely the point of the Apprentice. If it didn't have the board state conditional, it would be pretty busted. But the conditional is a pretty hefty drawback; unless you're using it as a follow up to a board clear, your opponent should have no trouble removing it if you're behind on board, and you'll get no benefit out of it if you're ahead on board. So you have two particularly good times to play it- on turn 2 (assuming your opponent has no minions), or immediately after a full board wipe. In all other situations, it's very comparable to Novice Engineer, if a bit worse.
I guess what I'm trying to say is this: compared to Mana Tide Totem and Novice Engineer, Warlock's Apprentice is a strong, but conditional alternative.
Today in my free brawl pack I got Barongeddon, then I had a cup of fresh green tea. As a result of that, I think Priest is OP because my keyboard is not a mechanical one. I hope Blizzard will address this issue.
The comparison to mana tide is pretty good actually. I wouldn't be so rash to say a mana tide with that condition would be unplayable, just because shaman does have even more burn and very viable spells, which could protect it... although yes, there is no such control-don't care about the board-play all the burn deck that exists nowadays. Yeah, I'm stretching it here haha.
Yeah, I see what you meant now, that's true (topdeck point). But then again I don't think you should treat that card as a substitute for novice. What I mean by that is that you don't play it so you can topdeck it in that scenario, if you do, keep it in your hand until you need it for tempo or for a post-board clear. Again, I give you the point that in this particular case (you topdeck it, you already have a board) novice could be perceived as "better", but I still think it isn't because while NE is a one straightforward card, the apprentice is a tool you use in certain situations. If you were playing for the tempo in that scenario for some reason (like your opponent is really low and you need a bit of board pressure), yeah, NE would give you a card and apprentice wouldn't. But that is not what that deck is trying to do 98% of the time, I think we can agree.
Also the whole "better than novice" started because I wanted to give context to my argument that draw is pretty damn strong. Yeah, in certain situations novice could hold the upper hand, but I think it's easy to spot how apprentice has the potential to make novice look plain bad.
I wouldn't even call it a combo, it's a fairly regular play (wipe+minion). You don't play him when you're behind, you play a clear if you're behind. I admit that as the game moves to the later part, it will become a bit less relevant (except of course for the free infernal on a 9 costed jaraxxus when you had that guy out already, then it's ultra relevant). But I think it's still a very fine play, still forces the guy to remove it. But playing that guy on 2, on an empty board? It's just good, just too good.
I agree that it is strong and conditional. I don't think it's conditional enough to make up for the strength. It does, or can do, too much for nearly no mana.
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"You keep him in here, and make sure, he doesn't leave the room."
It is a better novice, and I'll explain it again. This card HAS to be removed, otherwise it's a 2 mana 1/2: draw 2 cards. If you don't remove it again, it's a 2 mana 1/2: draw 3 cards. This will FORCE your opponent to either have a board and deal with it or have a fast card and SPEND IT. How can you not see that a 2 mana 1/2, draw a card, force your opponent to deal with it is not just a mere 1/2 draw a card, WHICH IS ALREADY OP?
You don't NEED to play it if you topdeck it and you have a board, but you still have you hero power, it's not like now you topdecked it and can't draw a card for christ sake. Hell, in some cases you just play it for tempo, who cares? Look at all the benefits you get from it and tell me you think this is not worth a slot in any control deck, maybe even midrangy decks?
Either way as a control deck you'll be wiping the board constantly, what stops you from twisting nether, play this dude and tap for free? Do the same with hellfire turn 6, and so on? God, you're like trying so hard to make the card look bad, when just looking at it you know it's not.
#gNOmeferatu
Thank you, that is a lot more reasonable.
The comparison to mana tide is pretty good actually. I wouldn't be so rash to say a mana tide with that condition would be unplayable, just because shaman does have even more burn and very viable spells, which could protect it... although yes, there is no such control-don't care about the board-play all the burn deck that exists nowadays. Yeah, I'm stretching it here haha.
Yeah, I see what you meant now, that's true (topdeck point). But then again I don't think you should treat that card as a substitute for novice. What I mean by that is that you don't play it so you can topdeck it in that scenario, if you do, keep it in your hand until you need it for tempo or for a post-board clear. Again, I give you the point that in this particular case (you topdeck it, you already have a board) novice could be perceived as "better", but I still think it isn't because while NE is a one straightforward card, the apprentice is a tool you use in certain situations. If you were playing for the tempo in that scenario for some reason (like your opponent is really low and you need a bit of board pressure), yeah, NE would give you a card and apprentice wouldn't. But that is not what that deck is trying to do 98% of the time, I think we can agree.
Also the whole "better than novice" started because I wanted to give context to my argument that draw is pretty damn strong. Yeah, in certain situations novice could hold the upper hand, but I think it's easy to spot how apprentice has the potential to make novice look plain bad.
I wouldn't even call it a combo, it's a fairly regular play (wipe+minion). You don't play him when you're behind, you play a clear if you're behind. I admit that as the game moves to the later part, it will become a bit less relevant (except of course for the free infernal on a 9 costed jaraxxus when you had that guy out already, then it's ultra relevant). But I think it's still a very fine play, still forces the guy to remove it. But playing that guy on 2, on an empty board? It's just good, just too good.
I agree that it is strong and conditional. I don't think it's conditional enough to make up for the strength. It does, or can do, too much for nearly no mana.