Zeriyah stated that it doesn't trigger when your board is wiped which means that aoe can still trigger it if all your minions don't die. Not triggering when your board is wiped makes avenge really good. That means it has a prerequisite for a minion to be up before triggering which means that you will always get value out of it. It's a fail-safe.
just to shed a little light on the subject of how this will work with death rattle (disclosure, this is all speculation and from my deduction of how other cards work)
so the way the game works so far from my point of view is that its all based on 1 event at a time, and on a stack. said card must resolve first before another can take action unless it triggers another affect.
with this card it has 2 triggers, a minion must die, and you must have a minion on board for it to trigger. though both does not have to happen at the same time. and I mention this specifically for death rattle effects.
so for creatures such as harvest golem and Carine bloodhoof, their death rattles will only take affect after the minion dies, thus they die and a unit is spawned from it, and so avenge will only take place after the death rattle effects happens because it must wait for the unit to actually die before it gets triggered, and death rattle happens during it's death. thus avenge does not require 2 units to be on board for it to work.
now redemption and avenger combo seems a bit iffy to me since this is an outside source and not a direct death rattle. so to me this will depend on the order of which the cards are played, if redemption is played first, then it would work because the minion died and then revived, then avenge will trigger afterwards because it noticed the death and there is a minion alive still on the board, but if played the other way around, it will hit avenge first and will not trigger cuz there is no minion on board, then move onto redemption and then revive it. so order of play will matter in this aspect, but then you can always use this to your advantage in case the minion being revived isnt the minion you want avenge to go onto.
so currently I believe this to be a very strong card, since the only way to play around it is if you wipe their board or have a very strong board control that you never leave a minion on there. thus never triggering the effect. but if you dont, be prepaired to have one of their minions buffed up
Latest tidbit, apparently the secret won't activate if there's no recipient minion to get the effect. Meaning that if you get board wiped that the secret stays till you have minions on the board again where the card can resolve like intended.
Latest tidbit, apparently the secret won't activate if there's no recipient minion to get the effect. Meaning that if you get board wiped that the secret stays till you have minions on the board again where the card can resolve like intended.
i feel like this card is a little gimped.. no doubt we will be seeing it in aggro pally and possibly some weird secret pally. but i believe most paladin players are leaning more towards control and i cant see this in a midrange or control pally deck
i feel like this card is a little gimped.. no doubt we will be seeing it in aggro pally and possibly some weird secret pally. but i believe most paladin players are leaning more towards control and i cant see this in a midrange or control pally deck
If someone just throws 1 of them into any Pally deck, I can see it working with anything, and it only costs a mana. A lot of times you have a single mana left over at the end of a turn, and you could play this an guarantee a 3/2 buff to something by the next turn (or two).
This looks to be a secret that will be much harder for opponents to play around. Would be a nice play in combination with the Noble Sacrifice secret.
This. One mana for 5 points of stats... Not alot of silences floating around right now, that may change. What I don't like about this card... Is imo it promotes early game, or aggro... Which I still think is a really frustrating and unfun meta to be a part of.
There doesn't seem to be much discussion of this here, but what makes this card so amazing is that is makes all of the other Paladin secrets much better. This is both a buff to them, and a buff to this card because your opponent will not know for certain which it is. Every Paladin secret except Eye for an Eye becomes much better.
Lets go through the list:
Redemption:
You play a creature, any creature, and then redemption + avenge. Preferably a deathrattle creature such as Sylvanas, but any good creature will do. (This works for either control or aggro) They remove the creature, killing it, then the creature comes back to life, THEN it gets buffed +3/+2. Obviously this may not work in all situations, but many times if you opponent is killing a creature once they will not be able to do another 3 damage to it. If you are running aggro there are probably too many targets for them to be happy to deal with another 3 health powerful minion, in control if they managed to kill a Ragnaros or Tirion Fordring they will likely not have the mana or cards to deal with it again. Obviously it is a better play on Rag because if they silence him he often becomes even more powerful. (And if they are silencing him after he gets the buff the creature will regain its health!) That combo is immense for Paladin. I guarantee you will see Avenge and Redemption in Control and Aggro alike.
Noble Sacrifice:
Play any creature that you want to keep alive, likely something with card text or power, and then play noble sacrifice + avenge. If they have to kill the creature with a minion then that creature you wanted to keep alive is buffed +3/+2 and the opponent's minion is weakened (maybe into range of a consecrate?) and cant attack again this turn. It may not work in every game, but if you put any thought into it at all you can consider what your opponent is able to do. This combo, along with the Redemption one, not only forces the opponent into bad plays based off of misinformation, but can completely cut the legs from your opponent's strategy by allowing a key minion to survive. The best part about it is that if they play around this by using target removal or AOE you retain the secret.
Repentance:
This secret benefits a little less than the other other two, and not at all directly, however it becomes buffed by association. When players begin running the other secrets (except for eye for an eye) your opponents will now have 4 different secrets to play around. Not only will there be the casual mistakes of putting out a larger creature before a smaller one for repentance to eat (in a rush deck that likely utilizes divine favor) but there will be times where your opponent will feel forces to play a large creature because it plays around an attack into noble sacrifice or maintains board presence vs avenged creatures. The only deck I would run this in in constructed would be a rush deck with divine favors and the other three good secrets, however it may have its place and will certainly make the other better by association.
A few general thoughts about running more secrets:
Your dudes (Recruits) become more powerful because you always have a way to put out a secondary minion for the trigger. They kill your good minion, the recruit becomes a 4/3.
If you want to run secrets in a control deck, we may see Gadgetzan auctioneers in them.
Anything that is buffed by playing spells or cards will take advantage of 1 minion cards. This makes divine favor give you bigger hands, Auctioneer have a use in control pally, questing adventurer become relevant in pally, secretkeeper becomes relevant (and even game winning) in pally. Cult master might see some play with redemptions and/or noble sacrifices in rush decks for a second card draw engine.
Also, remember that secrets are always worth more than the effect they give. They force the opponent to play around contingencies and make deliberate missplays to avoid game turning possibilities. Even with the wrong secret in hand you can force opponents into tough choices.
Solid card,cannot play around it as it will give value at some point unless you manage to keep killing all minions the pala put out which will be impossible vs a aggro pala with ds's etc etc(flare ofc but yeah).
And can be used to kill bigger things as well. Example: you have a yeti and a silvehand looking at a ragnaros. Play avenge, run silvehand into raggy and presto a 7/7 yeti to kill raggy. With this in mind you can play this in both aggro which I think it will shine and become a staple card in that archetype AND in control decks for some beefy singel target removal.
And can be used to kill bigger things as well. Example: you have a yeti and a silvehand looking at a ragnaros. Play avenge, run silvehand into raggy and presto a 7/7 yeti to kill raggy.
While I obviously think it is a good card based off of my post a few moments ago, this wouldn't work because traps only trigger on your opponent's turn.
What makes you say that? Missdirect into missdirect triggers so why wouldn't this trigger on your turn?
They made the change a patch or two ago. They did it so that they could add more secret mechanics that would be balanced and to put secrets in line with their intent for them. Notice how secrets are greyed out on your turn now?
also as I mentioned in my post, redemption and avenger combo will only work if redemption was played first, otherwise only redemption will trigger since avenger would not have a target to apply the buff onto (assuming the creature dying is the only creature on your side)
The secret itself is fine, but I propose a higher mana cost than 1. Perhaps 2 or even 3.
Then it's not really a secret, it is? If all Paladin secrets cost 1 mana, except for Avenge, then it's a bit of no brainer to know when it is played.
Classes other than pally have secrets that have different costs. Mana crystal consumption is not shown to the opponent, plus, having to play intelligently to not telegraph your secrets is not something Blizzard can do for you by holding your hand. I stand by my proposal.
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Zeriyah stated that it doesn't trigger when your board is wiped which means that aoe can still trigger it if all your minions don't die. Not triggering when your board is wiped makes avenge really good. That means it has a prerequisite for a minion to be up before triggering which means that you will always get value out of it. It's a fail-safe.
just to shed a little light on the subject of how this will work with death rattle (disclosure, this is all speculation and from my deduction of how other cards work)
so the way the game works so far from my point of view is that its all based on 1 event at a time, and on a stack. said card must resolve first before another can take action unless it triggers another affect.
with this card it has 2 triggers, a minion must die, and you must have a minion on board for it to trigger. though both does not have to happen at the same time. and I mention this specifically for death rattle effects.
so for creatures such as harvest golem and Carine bloodhoof, their death rattles will only take affect after the minion dies, thus they die and a unit is spawned from it, and so avenge will only take place after the death rattle effects happens because it must wait for the unit to actually die before it gets triggered, and death rattle happens during it's death. thus avenge does not require 2 units to be on board for it to work.
now redemption and avenger combo seems a bit iffy to me since this is an outside source and not a direct death rattle. so to me this will depend on the order of which the cards are played, if redemption is played first, then it would work because the minion died and then revived, then avenge will trigger afterwards because it noticed the death and there is a minion alive still on the board, but if played the other way around, it will hit avenge first and will not trigger cuz there is no minion on board, then move onto redemption and then revive it. so order of play will matter in this aspect, but then you can always use this to your advantage in case the minion being revived isnt the minion you want avenge to go onto.
so currently I believe this to be a very strong card, since the only way to play around it is if you wipe their board or have a very strong board control that you never leave a minion on there. thus never triggering the effect. but if you dont, be prepaired to have one of their minions buffed up
CM Zeriyah also confirms that the buff will go to a random friendly minion:
"... and the effect is random."
https://twitter.com/CM_Zeriyah/status/461563343585558528
Poetic.
Latest tidbit, apparently the secret won't activate if there's no recipient minion to get the effect. Meaning that if you get board wiped that the secret stays till you have minions on the board again where the card can resolve like intended.
Forgot to add the link https://twitter.com/CM_Zeriyah/status/461631124255428609
If you see a bad post on the forum use the report function under it, so I or someone else of the moderation team can take care of it!
Already beat you to it:
http://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/9810-naxxramas-card-preview-avenge-discussion?comment=63
Poetic.
i feel like this card is a little gimped.. no doubt we will be seeing it in aggro pally and possibly some weird secret pally. but i believe most paladin players are leaning more towards control and i cant see this in a midrange or control pally deck
If someone just throws 1 of them into any Pally deck, I can see it working with anything, and it only costs a mana. A lot of times you have a single mana left over at the end of a turn, and you could play this an guarantee a 3/2 buff to something by the next turn (or two).
Poetic.
This. One mana for 5 points of stats... Not alot of silences floating around right now, that may change. What I don't like about this card... Is imo it promotes early game, or aggro... Which I still think is a really frustrating and unfun meta to be a part of.
There doesn't seem to be much discussion of this here, but what makes this card so amazing is that is makes all of the other Paladin secrets much better. This is both a buff to them, and a buff to this card because your opponent will not know for certain which it is. Every Paladin secret except Eye for an Eye becomes much better.
Lets go through the list:
Redemption:
You play a creature, any creature, and then redemption + avenge. Preferably a deathrattle creature such as Sylvanas, but any good creature will do. (This works for either control or aggro) They remove the creature, killing it, then the creature comes back to life, THEN it gets buffed +3/+2. Obviously this may not work in all situations, but many times if you opponent is killing a creature once they will not be able to do another 3 damage to it. If you are running aggro there are probably too many targets for them to be happy to deal with another 3 health powerful minion, in control if they managed to kill a Ragnaros or Tirion Fordring they will likely not have the mana or cards to deal with it again. Obviously it is a better play on Rag because if they silence him he often becomes even more powerful. (And if they are silencing him after he gets the buff the creature will regain its health!) That combo is immense for Paladin. I guarantee you will see Avenge and Redemption in Control and Aggro alike.
Noble Sacrifice:
Play any creature that you want to keep alive, likely something with card text or power, and then play noble sacrifice + avenge. If they have to kill the creature with a minion then that creature you wanted to keep alive is buffed +3/+2 and the opponent's minion is weakened (maybe into range of a consecrate?) and cant attack again this turn. It may not work in every game, but if you put any thought into it at all you can consider what your opponent is able to do. This combo, along with the Redemption one, not only forces the opponent into bad plays based off of misinformation, but can completely cut the legs from your opponent's strategy by allowing a key minion to survive. The best part about it is that if they play around this by using target removal or AOE you retain the secret.
Repentance:
This secret benefits a little less than the other other two, and not at all directly, however it becomes buffed by association. When players begin running the other secrets (except for eye for an eye) your opponents will now have 4 different secrets to play around. Not only will there be the casual mistakes of putting out a larger creature before a smaller one for repentance to eat (in a rush deck that likely utilizes divine favor) but there will be times where your opponent will feel forces to play a large creature because it plays around an attack into noble sacrifice or maintains board presence vs avenged creatures. The only deck I would run this in in constructed would be a rush deck with divine favors and the other three good secrets, however it may have its place and will certainly make the other better by association.
A few general thoughts about running more secrets:
Your dudes (Recruits) become more powerful because you always have a way to put out a secondary minion for the trigger. They kill your good minion, the recruit becomes a 4/3.
If you want to run secrets in a control deck, we may see Gadgetzan auctioneers in them.
Anything that is buffed by playing spells or cards will take advantage of 1 minion cards. This makes divine favor give you bigger hands, Auctioneer have a use in control pally, questing adventurer become relevant in pally, secretkeeper becomes relevant (and even game winning) in pally. Cult master might see some play with redemptions and/or noble sacrifices in rush decks for a second card draw engine.
Also, remember that secrets are always worth more than the effect they give. They force the opponent to play around contingencies and make deliberate missplays to avoid game turning possibilities. Even with the wrong secret in hand you can force opponents into tough choices.
Solid card,cannot play around it as it will give value at some point unless you manage to keep killing all minions the pala put out which will be impossible vs a aggro pala with ds's etc etc(flare ofc but yeah).
And can be used to kill bigger things as well. Example: you have a yeti and a silvehand looking at a ragnaros. Play avenge, run silvehand into raggy and presto a 7/7 yeti to kill raggy. With this in mind you can play this in both aggro which I think it will shine and become a staple card in that archetype AND in control decks for some beefy singel target removal.
While I obviously think it is a good card based off of my post a few moments ago, this wouldn't work because traps only trigger on your opponent's turn.
What makes you say that? Missdirect into missdirect triggers so why wouldn't this trigger on your turn?
When did you last test this? - Because it shouldn't work any longer.
They made the change a patch or two ago. They did it so that they could add more secret mechanics that would be balanced and to put secrets in line with their intent for them. Notice how secrets are greyed out on your turn now?
I see, must have missed that note when it happend.
also as I mentioned in my post, redemption and avenger combo will only work if redemption was played first, otherwise only redemption will trigger since avenger would not have a target to apply the buff onto (assuming the creature dying is the only creature on your side)
Turn one: Avenge
Turn two: Knife Juggler + Coin + Noble Sacrifice
Granted it wont stop spell removal, but it's still a decent opening defense to keep those knives a tossing.
The secret itself is fine, but I propose a higher mana cost than 1. Perhaps 2 or even 3.
Thanks FOO(The Banner God)!
Then it's not really a secret, it is? If all Paladin secrets cost 1 mana, except for Avenge, then it's a bit of no brainer to know when it is played.
Poetic.
Classes other than pally have secrets that have different costs. Mana crystal consumption is not shown to the opponent, plus, having to play intelligently to not telegraph your secrets is not something Blizzard can do for you by holding your hand. I stand by my proposal.
Thanks FOO(The Banner God)!