Hearthpwn

Piloted shredder is far away from strong, even as a 4/4 it'd still be on par with the rest as a 4/5 is better in several situations. Why all the hate for the card it really isn't that strong.

I'm not hating, but I really don't understand where you are coming from.

1. To say it has more value as a 4/3 is backwards. The 3 health of 4/3 does not make it as good as a 3/4 because it has less survivability. I realize the minion summon deathrattle somewhat mitigates that, but it would be even more "sticky" as a 3/4. It's not hard to deal with 3 or less health. By the way, you also forgot Spellbreaker as a 4/3 comparison.
2. The mech status only adds value to decks with mech synergy. Same with beasts, dragons, pirates, demons, and even the dreaded murlocs. Etc. Since when has Blizzard ever added tangible value for a category of card type such as that? Heck, Harvest Golem costs the same as a mech as it did before it was a mech. The change in cost was 0.
3. You came up with 4.6 value and at the end of your analyses claim it's probably too much? So what do you want, a nerf? According to you, it's not even a full point off of it's current cost. Even if we take your analyses at face value, your numbers say it's right around where it should be. There are plenty of cards that are good value, which you could argue are worth a bit more than their cost, which are not considered OP by practically anyone. Good value alone doesn't cut it as OP. Just 0.6 for a 4 cost ain't that bad.

So what are you trying to say? Is it too much or is your analyses trying to say something else?

Quote from ShadowOfFate jump

1. To say it has more value as a 4/3 is backwards. The 3 health of 4/3 does not make it as good as a 3/4 because it has less survivability. I realize the minion summon deathrattle somewhat mitigates that, but it would be even more "sticky" as a 3/4. It's not hard to deal with 3 or less health. By the way, you also forgot Spellbreaker as a 4/3 comparison.
2. The mech status only adds value to decks with mech synergy. Same with beasts, dragons, pirates, demons, and even the dreaded murlocs. Etc. Since when has Blizzard ever added tangible value for a category of card type such as that? Heck, Harvest Golem costs the same as a mech as it did before it was a mech. The change in cost was 0.
3. You came up with 4.6 value and at the end of your analyses claim it's probably too much? So what do you want, a nerf? According to you, it's not even a full point off of it's current cost. Even if we take your analyses at face value, your numbers say it's right around where it should be. There are plenty of cards that are good value, which you could argue are worth a bit more than their cost, which are not considered OP by practically anyone. Good value alone doesn't cut it as OP. Just 0.6 for a 4 cost ain't that bad.

So what are you trying to say? Is it too much or is your analyses trying to say something else?

1. I don't know if I worded my original post weirdly, but I meant that a 4/3 is LESS valuable than a 3/4, not the other way around. With that in mind I said that 4/3s may deserve a slight more upside than a 3/4 because the stats are verrryyy slightly worse (4/3 worse than 3/4). Also, I didn't take Spellbreaker as a comparision because I was mainly targeting 4/3 minions which cost 3 and Spellbreaker cost 4.

2. I got the idea that tribe tags may be worth a very small amount mainly from Murloc Raider who is a 1 mana 2/1 murloc that doesn't do anything else. Looking at all the creatures at 1 mana that have 1/2 or 2/1 stats, they all some extra form of upside along with their body. Like Leper Gnome did damage, and Goldshire Footman had taunt. Murloc Raider's upside is that he is a Murloc.

Of course the argument could also be made that the vanilla 2/1 or 1/2 body is worth less than 1 mana and adding in the slight benefit only evens a card out to be priced accordingly at 1.

3. I should've probably worded this better in my original post but here is my point: Piloted Shredder is inbalanced because when we compare Sludge belcher mana allocation and the logic behind it to that of Piloted Shredder, Sludge Belcher loses the value contest by more than 0.5 mana. In my mind, one of the aspects for Hearthstone to be balnced is for every card to balance out without being worth too much for their mana cost with less than a 0.5 mana difference. I know it's nearly impossible for every card to have a net worth of proper mana allocation in perfect balance, but I thought that I would just point it out in the case of Piloted Shredder having an edge over Sledge Belcher's mana allocation logic.

Quote from TrollShroud3 jump

Piloted shredder is far away from strong, even as a 4/4 it'd still be on par with the rest as a 4/5 is better in several situations. Why all the hate for the card it really isn't that strong.

Same guy who posted this: (on this thread: http://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/61933-skeleton-knight-should-be-buffed)

Quote from TrollShroud3 jump

The Skeleton Knight is incredibly powerful and not to be over looked or underrated. Yea you pay 6 mana for a salty dog, but if you build the deck correctly it will never die. If you have the capacity for imagination with this card and the skill to use it it's incredible. There are no bad cards, only bad players (with the exception of a few base cards like magma rager of course).

In arena this card gets potentially infinite value, the card would be OP if it were any better, it doesn't need any changes and flare alone makes printing this card fun. It's very underrated though.

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1. To say it has more value as a 4/3 is backwards. The 3 health of 4/3 does not make it as good as a 3/4 because it has less survivability. I realize the minion summon deathrattle somewhat mitigates that, but it would be even more "sticky" as a 3/4. It's not hard to deal with 3 or less health. By the way, you also forgot Spellbreaker as a 4/3 comparison.
2. The mech status only adds value to decks with mech synergy. Same with beasts, dragons, pirates, demons, and even the dreaded murlocs. Etc. Since when has Blizzard ever added tangible value for a category of card type such as that? Heck, Harvest Golem costs the same as a mech as it did before it was a mech. The change in cost was 0.
3. You came up with 4.6 value and at the end of your analyses claim it's probably too much? So what do you want, a nerf? According to you, it's not even a full point off of it's current cost. Even if we take your analyses at face value, your numbers say it's right around where it should be. There are plenty of cards that are good value, which you could argue are worth a bit more than their cost, which are not considered OP by practically anyone. Good value alone doesn't cut it as OP. Just 0.6 for a 4 cost ain't that bad.

So what are you trying to say? Is it too much or is your analyses trying to say something else?

1. I don't know if I worded my original post weirdly, but I meant that a 4/3 is LESS valuable than a 3/4, not the other way around. With that in mind I said that 4/3s may deserve a slight more upside than a 3/4 because the stats are verrryyy slightly worse (4/3 worse than 3/4). Also, I didn't take Spellbreaker as a comparision because I was mainly targeting 4/3 minions which cost 3 and Spellbreaker cost 4.

2. I got the idea that tribe tags may be worth a very small amount mainly from Murloc Raider who is a 1 mana 2/1 murloc that doesn't do anything else. Looking at all the creatures at 1 mana that have 1/2 or 2/1 stats, they all some extra form of upside along with their body. Like Leper Gnome did damage, and Goldshire Footman had taunt. Murloc Raider's upside is that he is a Murloc.

Of course the argument could also be made that the vanilla 2/1 or 1/2 body is worth less than 1 mana and adding in the slight benefit only evens a card out to be priced accordingly at 1.

3. I should've probably worded this better in my original post but here is my point: Piloted Shredder is inbalanced because when we compare Sludge belcher mana allocation and the logic behind it to that of Piloted Shredder, Sludge Belcher loses the value contest by more than 0.5 mana. In my mind, one of the aspects for Hearthstone to be balnced is for every card to balance out without being worth too much for their mana cost with less than a 0.5 mana difference. I know it's nearly impossible for every card to have a net worth of proper mana allocation in perfect balance, but I thought that I would just point it out in the case of Piloted Shredder having an edge over Sledge Belcher's mana allocation logic.

 

1. Ok. That makes a little more sense now. I wondered why were you looking for 3 cost 4/3s when Piloted Shredder is a 4 cost 4/3, but I now realize you were trying to say that a 4/3 stat minion generally worth around 3 mana.

2. Well that is inconsistent at best if it even exists. I do put stock into synergy of card types such as mech, but I have never seen a tangible value put on it in the form of mana cost before.

3. Hmmm... I think I sort of get what you are trying to say, but point 0.5 seems kind of arbitrary. Why is 0.5 the limit? And when 0.6 is so close to that, I still have a hard time being outraged about it according to your own logic. Shouldn't this also depend on the cost of the card? For example, 0.5 would be a much higher difference for a 1 cost than it would be for a 7 cost. For a 4 cost, I'll say again that 0.6 isn't that outrageous to me. And that's with your full calculation. If we dispute the mech tag addition, it becomes 0.4 mana which is within your 0.5 range limit. Either way, it's very close.

Yet that's not perfect, either. You noted that Piloted Shredder's summon is random. It can be very good, very bad, or in the middle. The randomness makes it hard to predict. I like how you included that the chances of getting something worth less is a bit higher. But why did you choose 1.8? Why not 1.7 or 1.9? Etc. To be honest, 1.8 sounds about right as a figure for this without going over the hard facts. But what is this based off of? Again, it seems arbitrarily reasoned based on the proven data you used to back up the figure and not calculated with that data. There is a difference. I could also use a source or link here.

IMO, your argument does more to dissuade me from wanting to do anything to Piloted Shredder. When it come to mana allocation, you yourself admit that it is almost impossible to put every card at exactly the value of the mana cost. There will always be cards with at least a bit better value just as there will always be poor value cards that see no play because of it. You can't buff/nerf every one until it's perfect.  That 0.6 or 0.4 or whatever difference your analyses could get isn't enough of a chunk of a 4 cost for me to be concerned about it. You yourself even admit the difference is only slightly too high.

In the case of a shredder, 4/3 is MORE valuable than an 3/4. You already have the survivability via the death-rattle (instead of via health stats), so the increased attack makes it more of a threat, meaning you really have to deal with it or it might end up trading up before the deathrattle.

Also, you have to account for a discount on stats because it summons a 2-mana minion as a deathrattle, you are sacrificing some tempo when playing a shredder.

Quote from sneakytoddman jump

In the case of a shredder, 4/3 is MORE valuable than an 3/4. You already have the survivability via the death-rattle (instead of via health stats), so the increased attack makes it more of a threat, meaning you really have to deal with it or it might end up trading up before the deathrattle.

No it's not. A 3/4 would be even harder to deal with. More survivability. 4 health takes it out of one shot killing range of a lot, including 3 damage spells and 3 attack minions which are fairly common. That makes it's trades better.

Quote from ShadowOfFate jump

Quote from sneakytoddman jump

In the case of a shredder, 4/3 is MORE valuable than an 3/4. You already have the survivability via the death-rattle (instead of via health stats), so the increased attack makes it more of a threat, meaning you really have to deal with it or it might end up trading up before the deathrattle.

No it's not. A 3/4 would be even harder to deal with. More survivability. 4 health takes it out of one shot killing range of a lot, including 3 damage spells and 3 attack minions which are fairly common. That makes it's trades better.

Quote from ShadowOfFate jump

Quote from sneakytoddman jump

In the case of a shredder, 4/3 is MORE valuable than an 3/4. You already have the survivability via the death-rattle (instead of via health stats), so the increased attack makes it more of a threat, meaning you really have to deal with it or it might end up trading up before the deathrattle.

No it's not. A 3/4 would be even harder to deal with. More survivability. 4 health takes it out of one shot killing range of a lot, including 3 damage spells and 3 attack minions which are fairly common. That makes it's trades better.

Really no. being able to kill big things matters too. Survivability isn't EVERYTHING. He already has good survivability because of his deathrattle. Should it would be MORE survivable with an extra health, but the 4 attack is more valuable than the 3 health when you know you are going to leave a 2 mana-minion behind. 

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Really no. being able to kill big things matters too. Survivability isn't EVERYTHING. He already has good survivability because of his deathrattle. Should it would be MORE survivable with an extra health, but the 4 attack is more valuable than the 3 health when you know you are going to leave a 2 mana-minion behind. 

Except that this is the point of the card. To keep a board presence and get favorable trade value. With higher health, it takes more to take it out. therefore, it sticks to the board even better and you are more likely to get higher trade value. The attack is not more valuable. You cannot deny that there are a bunch of 3 damage/attack or less minions or spells that can currently force the deathrattle with 1 card where they wouldn't be able to if it had 4 health. That would make the card more efficient than it already is. It's the same reason why Harvest Golem is better as a 2/3 than it would be as a 3/2.

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Really no. being able to kill big things matters too. Survivability isn't EVERYTHING. He already has good survivability because of his deathrattle. Should it would be MORE survivable with an extra health, but the 4 attack is more valuable than the 3 health when you know you are going to leave a 2 mana-minion behind. 

Except that this is the point of the card. To keep a board presence and get favorable trade value. With higher health, it takes more to take it out. therefore, it sticks to the board even better and you are more likely to get higher trade value. The attack is not more valuable. You cannot deny that there are a bunch of 3 damage/attack or less minions or spells that can currently force the deathrattle with 1 card where they wouldn't be able to if it had 4 health. That would make the card more efficient than it already is. It's the same reason why Harvest Golem is better as a 2/3 than it would be as a 3/2.

But harvest golem ISN'T better as a 2/3 than a 3/2. You want to err on the side of killing things with the first half. The reason harvest golem is super annoying is because it's second half still has 2 attack even with it's one piddly health.

by turn 3, your 2 attack on the golem isn't good enough. Fist half ends up dying for free too often, and doesn't even kill many key 2-drop minions like a mechwarper. Mech warper is better as a 2/3 because of its aura effect. Golems, you want to kill things.

This is definitely true in constructed, but in Arena the case for "survivability" as you describe it is more valid where the value game is a bit more important.

Quote from sneakytoddman jump

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Quote from sneakytoddman jump

Really no. being able to kill big things matters too. Survivability isn't EVERYTHING. He already has good survivability because of his deathrattle. Should it would be MORE survivable with an extra health, but the 4 attack is more valuable than the 3 health when you know you are going to leave a 2 mana-minion behind. 

Except that this is the point of the card. To keep a board presence and get favorable trade value. With higher health, it takes more to take it out. therefore, it sticks to the board even better and you are more likely to get higher trade value. The attack is not more valuable. You cannot deny that there are a bunch of 3 damage/attack or less minions or spells that can currently force the deathrattle with 1 card where they wouldn't be able to if it had 4 health. That would make the card more efficient than it already is. It's the same reason why Harvest Golem is better as a 2/3 than it would be as a 3/2.

But harvest golem ISN'T better as a 2/3 than a 3/2. You want to err on the side of killing things with the first half. The reason harvest golem is super annoying is because it's second half still has 2 attack even with it's one piddly health.

by turn 3, your 2 attack on the golem isn't good enough. Fist half ends up dying for free too often, and doesn't even kill many key 2-drop minions like a mechwarper. Mech warper is better as a 2/3 because of its aura effect. Golems, you want to kill things.

This is definitely true in constructed, but in Arena the case for "survivability" as you describe it is more valid where the value game is a bit more important.

No. You want golems to trade well and help you keep board presence. They do this more effectively with 3 health than with 2, as they survive all the things that do 1-2 damage or have 1-2 attack, allowing them to trade an extra time or soak up an extra spell or something. If it requires an extra card to get to the Golem's deathrattle than that just makes that trades more efficient and therefore the card gave you higher value. Not everything is about going for the face. Different cards have different purposes. The only advantage to the piloted Shredder having 4 attack is for Priests. Otherwise, it would be better if it was harder to kill.

Value in constructed is just as important as in arena, if not more so because decks are more highly optimized.

I used to agree with your point of view here, but you have to think bigger picture.

The front half of the trades at least 1-1 with almost every popular 3 & 4 drop in the game, and some 5 drops (like Azure Drake). THEN leaves a 2-mana minion behind. So basically, you've got a 1-1 trade sure thing, often trading UP plus a 2 mana minion.

(you know what 3-drop shredder just outright beats? Harvest Golem...)

in the 3-drop zone, 3/4s are becoming more and more popular. A 3/4 shredder WOULDN'T be able to kill that, making it useless to attack a 3/4 shredder into it.

The biggest problem card for the shredder is probably, knife juggler. But even THEN, you're killing the very valuable knife juggler an STILL have a 2-mana minion behind to do a small 1-1 trade with another 2-mana minion.

 The main reason why shredder is better than yeti is that when yeti trades with other 4 drops he is able to be pinged for equal value. More often than not, shredder doesn't drop a 2 that can be dealt with by pinging. 

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Really no. being able to kill big things matters too. Survivability isn't EVERYTHING. He already has good survivability because of his deathrattle. Should it would be MORE survivable with an extra health, but the 4 attack is more valuable than the 3 health when you know you are going to leave a 2 mana-minion behind. 

Except that this is the point of the card. To keep a board presence and get favorable trade value. With higher health, it takes more to take it out. therefore, it sticks to the board even better and you are more likely to get higher trade value. The attack is not more valuable. You cannot deny that there are a bunch of 3 damage/attack or less minions or spells that can currently force the deathrattle with 1 card where they wouldn't be able to if it had 4 health. That would make the card more efficient than it already is. It's the same reason why Harvest Golem is better as a 2/3 than it would be as a 3/2.

But harvest golem ISN'T better as a 2/3 than a 3/2. You want to err on the side of killing things with the first half. The reason harvest golem is super annoying is because it's second half still has 2 attack even with it's one piddly health.

by turn 3, your 2 attack on the golem isn't good enough. Fist half ends up dying for free too often, and doesn't even kill many key 2-drop minions like a mechwarper. Mech warper is better as a 2/3 because of its aura effect. Golems, you want to kill things.

This is definitely true in constructed, but in Arena the case for "survivability" as you describe it is more valid where the value game is a bit more important.