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- Kreekakon
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Member for 10 years, 3 months, and 11 days
Last active Thu, Sep, 6 2018 02:08:19 -
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0
After playing a fair bit with this deck, I have a quick question: Is the deck just simply highly unfavored to win against Pirate Warrior if it ends up going second (Assuming the Warrior doesn't whiff his turn 1). The board advantage generated from Patches and the random pirate usually proves too much to catch back up from.
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1. I don't know if I worded my original post weirdly, but I meant that a 4/3 is LESS valuable than a 3/4, not the other way around. With that in mind I said that 4/3s may deserve a slight more upside than a 3/4 because the stats are verrryyy slightly worse (4/3 worse than 3/4). Also, I didn't take Spellbreaker as a comparision because I was mainly targeting 4/3 minions which cost 3 and Spellbreaker cost 4.
2. I got the idea that tribe tags may be worth a very small amount mainly from Murloc Raider who is a 1 mana 2/1 murloc that doesn't do anything else. Looking at all the creatures at 1 mana that have 1/2 or 2/1 stats, they all some extra form of upside along with their body. Like Leper Gnome did damage, and Goldshire Footman had taunt. Murloc Raider's upside is that he is a Murloc.
Of course the argument could also be made that the vanilla 2/1 or 1/2 body is worth less than 1 mana and adding in the slight benefit only evens a card out to be priced accordingly at 1.
3. I should've probably worded this better in my original post but here is my point: Piloted Shredder is inbalanced because when we compare Sludge belcher mana allocation and the logic behind it to that of Piloted Shredder, Sludge Belcher loses the value contest by more than 0.5 mana. In my mind, one of the aspects for Hearthstone to be balnced is for every card to balance out without being worth too much for their mana cost with less than a 0.5 mana difference. I know it's nearly impossible for every card to have a net worth of proper mana allocation in perfect balance, but I thought that I would just point it out in the case of Piloted Shredder having an edge over Sledge Belcher's mana allocation logic.
1
The general game plan of Mech Shaman is to out tempo your opponent and kill him really quickly.
Posting the decklist that you are using would also be great for making sure if there are any problems with it.
7
Hello all! It should be fairly common knowledge that cards are priced accordingly for what they do along with their stats. So in this thread I'd like to compare the allocation of Piloted Shredder to Sludge Belcher and try to show why Piloted Shredder may be a bit on the strong side.
Let's first breakdown Sludge Belcher. It comes with an initial 3/5 body with taunt which is the same as Sen'jin Shieldmasta so the cost should naturally also be the same (4 mana). The small slime is a 1/2 with taunt which is the same as Goldshire Footman so it also has a value of 1 mana. Put together it creates Sludge Belcher's mana cost of 5 (4+1). Of course bundling two cards together into one card is naturally powerful but the argument could be made for the tradeoff being not having the choice to play it one turn early in case you JUST want a 3/5 taunt. In a nutshell, it's the value and tempo tradeoff.
Now let's look at Piloted Shredder who costs 4 mana. The initial body is a 4/3 which is one of the standard vanilla stats for a 4/3 (Minions with these stats usually come with an upside though). The spawned minion is however always going to be a 2 mana minion however.
When taking this at face value it may seem definitely overpowered since it places the Piloted Shredder's value at 3+2=5 mana. Even when considering tempo like with the Sludge Belcher, you'll notice that Sludge Belcher has already been given a upside to compensate for its tempo while Piloted Shredder gets an additional 1 mana's worth of value.
However I think there is more discussion and arguments to be made here for Piloted Shredder being priced accordingly which will mainly take the shape of two additional aspects in addition to the raw creature stat cost I talked about earlier:
(1) 4/3 usually have a very minor upside. How much the upside should usually be worth is up for debate. I have no reference for this but I'll just estimate the worth of the upside to be 0.4 mana on a whim (The only neutral ones we have to go on are Light's Champion which silences a demon, and arguably Injured Blademaster which starts off with a higher HP cap and injured).
However Piloted Shredder DOES already come with the upside of being a mech so that mostly fills the bill of a extra benefit. In this case we can draw comparisons to Spider Tank who also has vanilla stats but comes with a Mech tag as well. However 4/3s are probably valued SLIGHTLY less than 3/4s so 4/3s may deserve a very slight upside bonus over 3/4s.
With this in mind I would estimate that a 3 mana 4/3 mech would deserve a 0.2 mana over a 3 mana 3/4 mech. Through math this also means I think the mech tag is worth 0.2 mana.
(2) The 2 mana minion may occasionally be worth less than two mana. It has also been analyzed before that there is a higher chance of getting something NOT worth two mana than it is getting something that is worth MORE than two mana. Also slightly vague, I will estimate the average value of the spawned minion to be 1.8 mana
So with this all in mind the final mana worth of Piloted Shredder can be put into this equation:
(Worth of 4/3 body) + (Worth of the random 2 cost minion) +(Mech tag) - (4/3 upside worth)
Adding all of my hypothetical values (Which are purely guesswork and may be completely off) into this mix this would make Piloted Shredder worth approximately:
3 + 1.8 + 0.2 - 0.4 = 4.6 mana
So finally with all this taken into account Piloted Shredder is worth around 0.6 mana more than the equation which allows Sludge Belcher to exist. It may be more acceptable if the difference was less than 0.4, or even stretching it to 0.5. This difference however is a whopping 0.6 which means I think that Piloted Shredder definitely may be slightly too good for its cost just a bit over.
tl;dr: Using the Sludge Belcher formula to count mana cost and card value, Sludge Belcher will be worth his base 5 and Piloted Shredder will be worth 4.6 which may be too much value
1
I have seen quite a lot of remarks in the Hearthstone community that if Hearthstone wants to be taken seriously as an e-sport then it needs to cut back on RNG and other various aspects. But the thing I'm pondering here today is that does it HAVE to do that?
I think with Blizzard implementing so many RNG elements, they are obviously pushing a casual game that is not meant to be taken seriously. However even though such a thing is the case, there is still an e-sports scene built around Hearthstone.
I definitely agree that Hearthstone's RNG stops me from taking it completely seriously, but the thing that sustains it being a commonly watched e-sport is just that: its large viewership
I think that the most successful e-sport would not be the game which is potentially the best one and/or the most fair one, it is definitely the one which people support the most and actually go out to watch.
With this in mind, as long as people watch the game, does Hearthstone really "need" to be completely competitive to survive as an e-sport and people keep playing it?
Because to be completely frank, there have already been many many high caliber games which have RNG swings play a major factor in the game's win or loss. This however has not made the game any less popular.
0
Ok yes you do have a point there then. The mindset I was in when I made that reply was still in that of a Zoolock, despite you having mentioned in your previous post that you were talking about control. Sorry for accidentally filtering it out of my brain.
If you're playing super heavy duty control, then yes I think that a board full of nothing but Dreadsteeds definitely has a place to shine provided you are able to secure your lead until then and not die.
0
While a full board is tempting, it becomes concerning when you cannot work with anything else besides seven 1/1s. Your opponent may be able to abuse this by playing out stuff that has more than 7 HP as the game reaches its close. Without any ability to "switch" your board for more power to combat these threats, you will eventually simply not be able to dish out enough damage to control the board or use your other bigger minions. This will likely result in you being out tempo'ed simply due to your opponent's minions being bigger and lose you the game.
0
My deck is primarily a Zoo deck so it is already favored against other tempo or mildly aggressive decks. In most of these games I was usually able to still out tempo them with my value. In the worst case, the Dreadsteed is simply not played and I just kill him the old fashioned way.I have never really yet been in a situation where Dreadsteed being dead in my hand because of overwhelming tempo was a huge issue that invalidates the card.
However for SUPER aggressive decks like Face Hunter...this is currently a concern of mine that I have thought about too. Unfortunately in all my testing so far I have not run into any Face Hunters yet. After I get home today I may ask my friend to play against my deck with face Hunter just to see how exactly it pans out.
0
I am currently testing a Zoo Deck with Dreadsteed support in it. I think that the best way to use Dreadsteed is not to approach it as a super combo wombo card which needs a deck built around it. It works best as an additional piece to an overall solid deck which can produce immense value.
I have been playing many games with the deck and I have to say that the potential is definitely outstanding. Dreadsteed can be thought of a super value card which is able to get immense value over time provided you don't die. Because of this Dreadsteed fits very good in Zoo since if things are going as planned you will usually have the tempo lead on your opponent. This means you will be able to safely develop the Dreadsteed without falling behind on the board. If you're behind in tempo though you should play something else obviously, and Zoo also has many other solid cards for these emergency cases. Baron Rivendere also has good utility with Zoo already since there are so many deathrattles.
For anyone interested here was the deck when it first started out. I have since replaced one of the Anima Golems with Malgannis. I am also considering replacing a Mortal Coil since it is a dead card against control most of the time (I'll make an actual deck page after some more testing): http://i.imgur.com/vWvDvTg.jpg
I am even thinking of replacing the Anima Golems altogether since I think the notion might be overly gimmickly and a Sea Giant might even fill the same role AND be cheaper at the same time. Like I said, I think Dreadsteed should not be treated as the central pillar that a deck needs to be built around, but rather a valuable new addition to an already great deck.
14
His golden animation is adorable
0
Hello everyone once again! So with all of us having been in the Hearthstone community for such a long time, I'm sure we've all noticed a very common trait: Which is the tendency to get "salty"
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Let's spend a short while talking about what causes salt to happen. Quickly analyzing my own tendencies to feel the feeling of salt rear its head, I have mostly deduced that the causes of salt mostly originate from a feeling that something bad which is happening to you in the game is out of your control.
This most often comes in the form of RNG, or being out tempo-ed. When these things happen to us, we feel like that anything bad which has happened to us as a result was not deserved ESPECIALLY since it seemingly felt like we could not fight back against it. This causes a feeling of spite to well up inside us which is what we know as salt.
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Moving on, it seems that some games are not as prone to salt-creation as others. I know everyone's experiences may not be the same, but I'd like to draw comparisons between the overall atmosphere of play between League of Legends and Starcraft. I'm sure many of you will agree with me that League of Legends is usually the more "unpleasent" environment to be in.
The reason I think this is is because in League of Legends, you are playing as a team of five. Not everything that happens in the game is under one player's sole control so sometimes things can happen to the a player which was brought about by another teammate's mistake. Since a player can feel that he had no control over his now misfortune situation (Losing the game), players will oftentimes grow bitter because what happened was something they feel they did not deserve and do not want to accept that fact.
In contrast in Starcraft 2 with my experience, it has generally been a VERY positive environment with many players very cheerful with only a very small amount of people who are bitter. The reason I think this is is because of the nature of how Starcraft 2 is played. Starcraft 2 is a real time strategy game usually played one on one. In such a format, because of the real time, there is NEVER any point in the game where the player is not able to immediately react to something that the opponent does, and because of the one-on-one aspect EVERYTHING that happens in the game be it good or bad is under the player's control. Another major thing is that you take ALL of your race's tools/units into a game with you, so there is less trouble of worrying about not having properly teched for the meta, or unfortunately running into a bad matchup for your deck like in Hearthstone. You will be able to adapt very easily judging by how the game goes. With such a great amount of control over the game's outcome, it is much easier to be accepting of anything bad that happens since players will usually see that they actually had the power to prevent it and simply screwed up of their own accord instead of something being taken out of their hands.
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Let's get back to Hearthstone. How could we use the things I discussed above to remove the causes of salt from Hearthstone? I used the word hypothetically in the title since I knew none of these changes would likely ever be able to make it into the game, but it's fun theory-crafting nonetheless.
Drawing inspiration from Starcraft 2 as well as some of Hearthstone's own aspects, I think that to fully be free of salt there would have to be:
1. No strictly good or bad matchups based on decks you brought. Instead make each player's play style decide the course of the game allowing each player to adapt without worrying that their deck is ill-suited against a certain sort of play style.
2. A high degree of immediate reaction to every move your opponent makes which negates not being able to do anything while your opponent tosses you around.
3. Tempo is more easily manageable. This means that it will be harder to fall impossibly behind in tempo and allow for more ways to fight back against a dire situation.
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Those are basically all of my thoughts on causes of salt and what Hearthstone hypothetically would have to do to make everyone more accepting for their losses (Except for the super salty people who will never accept anything). Do you have anymore? Regardless if it's something to add to what I discussed, or just another thought of yours, feel free to add it below!
tl;dr: "Salt" is mainly caused by a player feeling like a bad situation is out of their control. For a game to reduce this feeling to the bare minimum, it must be able to offer the player complete control over a situation so when something bad DOES happen they will be more likely to accept it rather than be bitter.
0
So here's a random thought that I had in my mind for a while:
Commonly, over the course of Hearthstone's lifespan, many people have disliked the notions of decks or play-styles which are "non-interactive". These decks can be combo decks which mainly try to control their opponent and eventually use a massive combo all on their own turn, or they can be hyper aggressive tempo decks which prey on finishing off the opponent before they are able to establish an effective counter measure. In both of these cases, people sometimes conclude that these decks are "un-fun" because they do not allow interaction.
However after quickly connecting a small amount of dots I realized that the "non-interactivity" WAS the reason that people played these decks and the reason many of them were competitive decks in the first place. To compare, more traditional/normal decks played off in a style which allowed the opponent to fight back and nullify a player's advantage. In these sort of "non-interactive decks" the player who was playing it had the benefit of being able to execute their combo all on their own turn without fearing immediate retaliation from the opponent. It is for this reason that Emperor Thaurissan is so good since it allows you to pull of more things on your turn without passing the turn over to your opponent to allow them to fight back.
It is naturally very annoying to not be able to fight back, but I think that simply based on how Hearthstone works, trying to have a combo which can be affected as little as possible by your opponent will always be something that players strive for simply because its consistency cannot be broken.
What do you all think on the matter? Is the nature of Hearthstone encouraging "non-interactive decks" okay for the game as a whole, or do you think there need to be counter measures which are able to disrupt your opponent while they are executing their elaborate combo?
0
You need to give us more information as to how your climb is going. Like:
1. What decks have you played?
2. What decks are you familiar with?
3. What decks are you running into most frequently?
4. What decks are you losing against most frequently?
5. In the games you lose, what do you think is it that caused you to lose?
1
One which has gone through my mind a bit is something called Sacrifice which is very similar the Yugioh mechanic. What the card would do is that in addition to paying the mana cost, you must also sacrifice any present minion you have on the board in order to play it. It can be any minion, ranging from a weak 1/1, to a bigger one if you're desperate.
The way the mechanic would be balanced would be similar to Overload. The card is question would be extremely undercosted in mana for the stats or the effect, but in return would require you to sacrifice a minion for it. Maybe even two or more if you want to get really big.
2
I can confirm this. I was playing with a friend today and wanted to show him this deck. The ropeburning only started after all the animations on my side were finished playing.