I really hate the "why wouldn't you just put X in your deck instead?" argument. For one, obviously not everyone has every single card. But there's a much more reasonable answer.
In decks that are pretty limited on space, and running mostly utilities to stay alive, remove minions, and develop damage in some form to finish the game, one card to act as 6 is actually pretty great. Yes, smaller decks are considered better, but it depends on the deck--fatigue decks obviously would like more cards to avoid fatigue, but Hearthstone is a game that limits 1-2 of a card per deck, which means the deck limit has to be smaller to accommodate that. Again, 30 cards in a card deck is considered really small compared to pretty much every other card game. Typically, you're looking at a 40-50 bare minimum, some card games allowing way more. Yes, you want to draw that card quicker so you'd want a smaller deck, but in a deck that doesn't rely on a single card by a single point, having more cards is not at all a problem, and often can help.
The only decks I would run Malchezaar in are so versatile already, but the nature of legendaries means often times you'll be getting a big 9 or 10 mana dragon than a 2-mana nightmare, which means you can actually cut corners in the late game, run only the essentials, and fit more early game tools/removal into the deck. 35 cards is really not that much more than 30 when those 5 cards are usually pretty good. Again, if they're bad, just don't play them. If you run Elise and have reason to monkey, just hold on to any bad legendaries and reroll them later.
Malchezaar is a way to turn what usually control decks would play in the late game for additional tools of removal and board clear. He means you can run additional card draw and play removal a little more liberally knowing you have more of it.
Think of it this way: a normal control deck would often consist of, say, 75% removal/clear/heal/ways to delay or otherwise prevent damage, and 25% stuff you're trying to survive to play--the numbers are just rough examples. With Malchezaar, you can suddenly shift your deck to where perhaps as far as 90-95% of your deck is removal/clear/heal/etc. and 5-10% cards that you just HAVE to have to do well in the late game. The cards Malchezaar gives you are generally going to be decent enough in the late game to help push, but running Elise is a good way to replace any of the stuff you just do NOT want to play (that said, I was able to play Millhouse Manastorm against a midrange hunter that I knew had cards that were neither minions nor any standalone strong spells (I assumed Hunter's Mark and something else), but just didn't because I had already won at that point).
Yes. You can draw something you don't want to draw. But control decks always have lived with that problem, and the ability to run just more removal/card draw can easily make up for that.
Anyway, Prince Malchezaar is unique in that he enables control decks to tech against aggro/midrange decks but still have tools and time to beat control, which is still important to consider. He's not a terrible card in the right deck, as are many cards--remember that control warrior that made it to legend a season or two ago using Overspark? Don't just read off everything the "pro players" say as gospel, every card has potential.
The problem with the card is that the five minions you get are random.
No, that's really not a problem. Elise gives you random stuff and she's an amazing card. Problems with Malchezaar are 2:
1) It makes your deck bigger. In every card game you want your deck to be as small as possible to have better access to your best cards. There are obviously some exceptions from this rule, but they are very specific. Overally in almost every card game smaller deck - better deck. Simple as that.
2) It's not randomness of minions you get that make them so bad - it's the fact that you get, what you don't already have. So if there was a single Legendary you wanted from Malchezarr - why didn't you just put it in your deck? Considering this Legendaries you get from it will always be bad. Simply because they weren't good enough to be added to your deck by you yourself. Why do you want them to be added by some other way then? Malchezaar won't give you anything you can't play in your deck already.
A typical wild vs standard post: One doing a full analysis for the card and its basic synergies in particular with control decks, while another saying Malchezaar is bad because it's bad against aggro shaman a tier 1 deck in a competitive format.
I've been trying this as well, and Renolock definitely seems like the best shell for Malchezaar, but I'm not convinced that it's ever really "good". There have been games where he's seemed good, but without knowing what I would have drawn each time I found a random legendary, it's hard to say whether it actually has been. By contrast, there have been a number of games in which I've needed Reno, or some other card, and not found it, but instead found a random legendary.
It's worth more testing, and perhaps worth playing as a counter to a mill-heavy meta, but I don't see it being generally "good" ever.
Malchezaar is good in exactly 1 scenario- playing as or against a fatigue/mill deck. In all other circumstances, he is (almost- Demon tag) a strictly worse Pit Fighter, since there is absolutely no reason to dilute your deck with random cards that you wouldn't otherwise put into your deck.
On the other hand, it's a fun card for people that are just starting out (and decided to spend 2800 gold on an adventure, instead of packs...).
Today in my free brawl pack I got Barongeddon, then I had a cup of fresh green tea. As a result of that, I think Priest is OP because my keyboard is not a mechanical one. I hope Blizzard will address this issue.
Excuse me, I don't know how he can buff Bane of Doom?
The Prince is a Demon, and he's a nice-sized 5/6 body. But this is a very tiny buff. The Prince is only good in two situations. In some fatigue style decks because your deck is now bigger; and for newer players who don't own many Legendaries and just want to have some fun.
From my experience, Malchezaar has been decent even when given bad legendaries, because I use him with Control Warrior with Elise, which allows the opponent to start fatiguing before me. And even when given mediocre-bad legendaries, they still see some use. I had a mirror match up against another control warrior and Turn 2 I played Lorewalker Cho.. It shut him down until turn 4 where he eventually wasted a fiery war axe on, which would otherwise have been used to clear my acolyte of pain.
I understand that my sample size is not big enough yet, and the season just started so I'm still at a low rank (rank 16), but so far he's been an enjoyable card
Had one game with renouncelock where he gave me y'sharjj which promptly pulled out deathwing. I do not own either of those. I understand those are two super low chances but hey, sometimes he's good, sometimes he's dam terrible.
Jesus Christ I'm fed up with the card already; Yogg already brings far-more-than-fun-levels of RNG into the game; we don't need another heavy card like this.
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Look, I want to tell you something because you're very dear to me. And I hope you understand that it comes from the bottom of my damaged, damaged heart. You are the finest piece of ass I've ever had and I don't care who knows it. I am so glad that I got to roam those hillsides.
Jesus Christ I'm fed up with the card already; Yogg already brings far-more-than-fun-levels of RNG into the game; we don't need another heavy card like this.
What? How is Malchezaar RNG unfair? C'mon man.... That's like saying cards like Thoughtsteal and Burgle are unfair.
I've been testing him in a Control Warrior build someone made here and he's been doing pretty damn well! There are of course the times when he gives underwhelming legendaries like Majerdomo Executus and Tinkmaster Overspark, but he's given me Ragnaroses and Bolf Ramshields a ton of times which have been extremely helpful.
I also saw throughout these posts that someone stated that he's bad played at turn 5 as a 5/6, and frankly I have to disagree. Whevener I've played him he's contested the board vs Control/Midrange decks pretty well or wiped most of or an entire board vs Aggro if they did not immediately Power Overwhelming and trade or buffed a minion with Abusive Sergeant to trade.
Overall I've been viewing him as the sleeper of this set so far. From the streamers to pro players all I've heard is "absolute trash" and after actually playing with it myself I really have to disagree.
2) It's not randomness of minions you get that make them so bad - it's the fact that you get, what you don't already have. So if there was a single Legendary you wanted from Malchezarr - why didn't you just put it in your deck? Considering this Legendaries you get from it will always be bad. Simply because they weren't good enough to be added to your deck by you yourself. Why do you want them to be added by some other way then? Malchezaar won't give you anything you can't play in your deck already.
Well, theoretically you could receive Legendaries from other classes that you couldn't add to your deck. Or you could get Legendaries you don't own. Or you could even get lucky enough to procure a Legendary that you didn't think you would need and lo and behold a moment arises where you're actually glad it's in your hand. You can also acquire a duplicate of a Legendary that you wouldn't have minded having more than one of. Obviously these are all unlikely scenarios but they all dispute your last sentence.
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He's good in a deck designed to fight to fatigue because he pads out your deck with 5 extra minions. Of course, you have to have your deck consistent enough that 5 minions doesn't endanger your chance of getting to the end game. Generally that consistency comes from card draw which puts you behind in fatigue but this can make up the difference so it compensates in a sense.
Personally, I'd only play it for the fun of the randomness of the cards. I;ve faced it in about 4 games and won all of them. In at least half my opponent played some awful legend at some point that left me scratching my head until I remembered they were playing him. It backfired terribly for a res priest who kept resurrecting Nat Pagel over and over, each time I killed him it was more likely he'd be the next rest target. He conceded. That's just pad play though.
He is trash from a pure theory perspective. A deck that goes to fatige should have a consistent strategy for winning fatigue and needs to maintain a tight set of cards to ensure they get there. Adding random cards to make your deck bigger makes it worse at whatever you intended it to do in the first place. It can only fail to hurt if your deck had no real focus to begin with.
From a practical stand point, you can get lucky and get some great legendaries you draw at just the right moment that are better for you than what you had in your deck to begin with because you hadn't built against the specific opponent or situation you are now facing. Just like rogue decks or priest decks that are designed to steal and copy cards can pull of crazy unexpected combos you never planned for. (Had a nice one where I was playing N'Zoth rogue against
(Had a nice one where I was playing N'Zoth rogue against priest. I had pulled two of the card that puts a copy of an opponents minion into my hand. I had dropped N'zoth and he'd cleared my minions and dropped Sylvanas. I trade into Sylvanas with N'zoth killing Syl and of my two minions he gets N'zoth (according to my plan). I then copy it into my hand twice and trade out the other minion killing his N'zioth. Now I can fill my board twice more with deathrattle minons. He concedes. Not the kind of thing you can ever plan but it wins games like a champ!)
AKA, just because its not strictly a good card, doesn't mean you can't win games with it due to the RNG goddess.
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2) It's not randomness of minions you get that make them so bad - it's the fact that you get, what you don't already have. So if there was a single Legendary you wanted from Malchezarr - why didn't you just put it in your deck? Considering this Legendaries you get from it will always be bad. Simply because they weren't good enough to be added to your deck by you yourself. Why do you want them to be added by some other way then? Malchezaar won't give you anything you can't play in your deck already.
Well, theoretically you could receive Legendaries from other classes that you couldn't add to your deck. Or you could get Legendaries you don't own. Or you could even get lucky enough to procure a Legendary that you didn't think you would need and lo and behold a moment arises where you're actually glad it's in your hand. You can also acquire a duplicate of a Legendary that you wouldn't have minded having more than one of. Obviously these are all unlikely scenarios but they all dispute your last sentence.
Unlike elise, he doesnt give you other class legendary lolz. And no duplicate too. Thats why he trash
The problem with Elise is you are forced to throw away your AOE, healing and removal to get random Legendaries. PM is so much better because he provides 2-3 threats on average and makes your deck very strong in a fatigue mirror, plus you keep all your good cards. A lot of fatigue decks are running mostly removal and heals, so adding minions to throw into the fray and getting a 5 card advantage for the cost of one slot is just awesome.
Malchezaar (check my wild meta tier list in wild discussion) is probably the strongest wild card since N'zoth.
Because most Wild games go to fatigue now?
Last time I checked, Secret paladin and Midrange Hunter were the top 2 wild decks. Go ahead, put those 5 random legendaries in your deck, and see if they help you staying alive past turn 8, when they are designed to have you dead.
Most decks run card-draw. Do you know why? To thin out your deck to get to the key/on curve/needed cards more consistantly. This dude is the opposite of card-draw.
I humbly think most people are wrong with this card in wild Renolock (it's a terrible standard card, so i'll leave it there). The thing is, you don't care wether the legendary are bad or top tier, it's of no consequences. What is extremely, extremely powerful however, is having 7-10 cards in hand. In late game, opponents will have a couple cards less and thus less options. The fact that you get potentially 5 more turns of NON FATIGUE DAMAGE AND CARDS AT THE SAME TIME makes it extremely strong. Renolock is probably the most control heavy deck, shining around turn 20+. The longer the game, the stronger your chance to win are. Put a lot of heal, taunt, and aoe, try to stabilize. The only decks which present problems are aggro or aggressive explosive midrange decks, and even then, a good aoe and reno in hand is enough to win the game. Extremely underrated card, can't understand it.
The same people that say Cairne is great? Whereas Piloted Sky golem is 10x superior? A lot of people listen to the pro like sheeps. The pro that said Boom was bad and Troggzor was top at gvg release?
Renolock already runs quite some legendaries though, so you might screw yourself over with that..
Put a lot of heal, taunt, and aoe, try to stabilize. The only decks which present problems are aggro or aggressive explosive midrange decks, and even then, a good aoe and reno in hand is enough to win the game.
Put in that fap-prince, and you will draw less of those super necessary taunts and AOEs. And those explosive midrange decks just happen to be the most popular atm. I have won through countless full-value renos, he does not save you from big, sticky boards.
I really hate the "why wouldn't you just put X in your deck instead?" argument. For one, obviously not everyone has every single card. But there's a much more reasonable answer.
In decks that are pretty limited on space, and running mostly utilities to stay alive, remove minions, and develop damage in some form to finish the game, one card to act as 6 is actually pretty great. Yes, smaller decks are considered better, but it depends on the deck--fatigue decks obviously would like more cards to avoid fatigue, but Hearthstone is a game that limits 1-2 of a card per deck, which means the deck limit has to be smaller to accommodate that. Again, 30 cards in a card deck is considered really small compared to pretty much every other card game. Typically, you're looking at a 40-50 bare minimum, some card games allowing way more. Yes, you want to draw that card quicker so you'd want a smaller deck, but in a deck that doesn't rely on a single card by a single point, having more cards is not at all a problem, and often can help.
The only decks I would run Malchezaar in are so versatile already, but the nature of legendaries means often times you'll be getting a big 9 or 10 mana dragon than a 2-mana nightmare, which means you can actually cut corners in the late game, run only the essentials, and fit more early game tools/removal into the deck. 35 cards is really not that much more than 30 when those 5 cards are usually pretty good. Again, if they're bad, just don't play them. If you run Elise and have reason to monkey, just hold on to any bad legendaries and reroll them later.
I don't think you understand.
Malchezaar is a way to turn what usually control decks would play in the late game for additional tools of removal and board clear. He means you can run additional card draw and play removal a little more liberally knowing you have more of it.
Think of it this way: a normal control deck would often consist of, say, 75% removal/clear/heal/ways to delay or otherwise prevent damage, and 25% stuff you're trying to survive to play--the numbers are just rough examples. With Malchezaar, you can suddenly shift your deck to where perhaps as far as 90-95% of your deck is removal/clear/heal/etc. and 5-10% cards that you just HAVE to have to do well in the late game. The cards Malchezaar gives you are generally going to be decent enough in the late game to help push, but running Elise is a good way to replace any of the stuff you just do NOT want to play (that said, I was able to play Millhouse Manastorm against a midrange hunter that I knew had cards that were neither minions nor any standalone strong spells (I assumed Hunter's Mark and something else), but just didn't because I had already won at that point).
Yes. You can draw something you don't want to draw. But control decks always have lived with that problem, and the ability to run just more removal/card draw can easily make up for that.
Anyway, Prince Malchezaar is unique in that he enables control decks to tech against aggro/midrange decks but still have tools and time to beat control, which is still important to consider. He's not a terrible card in the right deck, as are many cards--remember that control warrior that made it to legend a season or two ago using Overspark? Don't just read off everything the "pro players" say as gospel, every card has potential.
My Entry for this week's Card Design Competition - Season 8.16:
A typical wild vs standard post:
One doing a full analysis for the card and its basic synergies in particular with control decks, while another saying Malchezaar is bad because it's bad against aggro shaman a tier 1 deck in a competitive format.
Think about it.
There's never a best, world constantly evolve.
I've been trying this as well, and Renolock definitely seems like the best shell for Malchezaar, but I'm not convinced that it's ever really "good". There have been games where he's seemed good, but without knowing what I would have drawn each time I found a random legendary, it's hard to say whether it actually has been. By contrast, there have been a number of games in which I've needed Reno, or some other card, and not found it, but instead found a random legendary.
It's worth more testing, and perhaps worth playing as a counter to a mill-heavy meta, but I don't see it being generally "good" ever.
Excuse me, I don't know how he can buff Bane of Doom?
Malchezaar is good in exactly 1 scenario- playing as or against a fatigue/mill deck. In all other circumstances, he is (almost- Demon tag) a strictly worse Pit Fighter, since there is absolutely no reason to dilute your deck with random cards that you wouldn't otherwise put into your deck.
On the other hand, it's a fun card for people that are just starting out (and decided to spend 2800 gold on an adventure, instead of packs...).
#gNOmeferatu
Dependable loan sharks since 1960. We sink our teeth into every deal we make.
From my experience, Malchezaar has been decent even when given bad legendaries, because I use him with Control Warrior with Elise, which allows the opponent to start fatiguing before me. And even when given mediocre-bad legendaries, they still see some use. I had a mirror match up against another control warrior and Turn 2 I played Lorewalker Cho.. It shut him down until turn 4 where he eventually wasted a fiery war axe on, which would otherwise have been used to clear my acolyte of pain.
I understand that my sample size is not big enough yet, and the season just started so I'm still at a low rank (rank 16), but so far he's been an enjoyable card
Had one game with renouncelock where he gave me y'sharjj which promptly pulled out deathwing. I do not own either of those. I understand those are two super low chances but hey, sometimes he's good, sometimes he's dam terrible.
Jesus Christ I'm fed up with the card already; Yogg already brings far-more-than-fun-levels of RNG into the game; we don't need another heavy card like this.
Look, I want to tell you something because you're very dear to me. And I hope you understand that it comes from the bottom of my damaged, damaged heart. You are the finest piece of ass I've ever had and I don't care who knows it. I am so glad that I got to roam those hillsides.
I've been testing him in a Control Warrior build someone made here and he's been doing pretty damn well! There are of course the times when he gives underwhelming legendaries like Majerdomo Executus and Tinkmaster Overspark, but he's given me Ragnaroses and Bolf Ramshields a ton of times which have been extremely helpful.
I also saw throughout these posts that someone stated that he's bad played at turn 5 as a 5/6, and frankly I have to disagree. Whevener I've played him he's contested the board vs Control/Midrange decks pretty well or wiped most of or an entire board vs Aggro if they did not immediately Power Overwhelming and trade or buffed a minion with Abusive Sergeant to trade.
Overall I've been viewing him as the sleeper of this set so far. From the streamers to pro players all I've heard is "absolute trash" and after actually playing with it myself I really have to disagree.
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He's good in a deck designed to fight to fatigue because he pads out your deck with 5 extra minions. Of course, you have to have your deck consistent enough that 5 minions doesn't endanger your chance of getting to the end game. Generally that consistency comes from card draw which puts you behind in fatigue but this can make up the difference so it compensates in a sense.
Personally, I'd only play it for the fun of the randomness of the cards. I;ve faced it in about 4 games and won all of them. In at least half my opponent played some awful legend at some point that left me scratching my head until I remembered they were playing him. It backfired terribly for a res priest who kept resurrecting Nat Pagel over and over, each time I killed him it was more likely he'd be the next rest target. He conceded. That's just pad play though.
He is trash from a pure theory perspective. A deck that goes to fatige should have a consistent strategy for winning fatigue and needs to maintain a tight set of cards to ensure they get there. Adding random cards to make your deck bigger makes it worse at whatever you intended it to do in the first place. It can only fail to hurt if your deck had no real focus to begin with.
From a practical stand point, you can get lucky and get some great legendaries you draw at just the right moment that are better for you than what you had in your deck to begin with because you hadn't built against the specific opponent or situation you are now facing. Just like rogue decks or priest decks that are designed to steal and copy cards can pull of crazy unexpected combos you never planned for. (Had a nice one where I was playing N'Zoth rogue against
(Had a nice one where I was playing N'Zoth rogue against priest. I had pulled two of the card that puts a copy of an opponents minion into my hand. I had dropped N'zoth and he'd cleared my minions and dropped Sylvanas. I trade into Sylvanas with N'zoth killing Syl and of my two minions he gets N'zoth (according to my plan). I then copy it into my hand twice and trade out the other minion killing his N'zioth. Now I can fill my board twice more with deathrattle minons. He concedes. Not the kind of thing you can ever plan but it wins games like a champ!)
AKA, just because its not strictly a good card, doesn't mean you can't win games with it due to the RNG goddess.
Check out my gaming blog: Downy Owlbear Designs and download free P&P games.
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The problem with Elise is you are forced to throw away your AOE, healing and removal to get random Legendaries. PM is so much better because he provides 2-3 threats on average and makes your deck very strong in a fatigue mirror, plus you keep all your good cards. A lot of fatigue decks are running mostly removal and heals, so adding minions to throw into the fray and getting a 5 card advantage for the cost of one slot is just awesome.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
Renolock already runs quite some legendaries though, so you might screw yourself over with that..
Put in that fap-prince, and you will draw less of those super necessary taunts and AOEs. And those explosive midrange decks just happen to be the most popular atm. I have won through countless full-value renos, he does not save you from big, sticky boards.
The fap-prince sucks.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide