I am not so sure Miracle isn't still viable. If you sub out one of the Shadowsteps for Cold Blood you can still do 16 damage with Leroy + 2 cards for 9 mana. Not ideal, but I actually think it will still be viable, especially if fewer people playing it results in fewer Sludges.
It certainly takes the wind out of it's sails. Keep in mind that for most decks Leeroy costs one more. For Miracle Rogue it essentially costs 3 more now. Miracle is a hard deck to run and this just made it harder. You'll still see it with variants such as Maly-Miracle or a more creature based rogue designed to do damage a little more evenly but it's the only non-hunter deck most weakened by the nerf.
In all honesty it doesn't really kill Miracle as alot of matches can be won with just the large amount of spell spam and even then you can still do a fair bit of the Leeroy + Shadowstep combo, It's more like it just hurt it's finisher. However I must admit I do not play alot of miracle so I do apologize if I just completely missed the point.
@firekindle I agree with you. I've played a lot of Miracle and it's pretty rare that I need Leeroy and two Shadowsteps to kill my opponents. That combo usually just wins you the games that you have no business winning. Most games are won with minion + weapon damage and a few cheap spells to finish them off.
If you think Miracle is no longer viable because of the nerf, you have no clue how to play that deck. Which is good. I like that some decks are only viable for the smarter percentile of players.
And which part of Miracle requires higher brain functions then? Forgive me if I am being out of line here but I don't really see much intelligence in how to operate Miracle, I would go as far to say that the brainpower in playing Hearthstone is more on when to play your cards for any deck and what to anticipate from your opponent.
It is not that Miracle Rogue cannot perform miracles anymore, it's just that those combos are more expensive. Before you could sap and leeroy single ss for 8. Now its single ss leroy for 8 no sap. Two ss leeroy with sap as well as two leeroy ss no longer works.... these are just some of the otk/swing turns. Mrogue can still work with a good player, but it will no longer have a high enough statistical matchup to be worth ranked play. It was already struggling to keep 50% win post naxx.... now it has no way to efficiently threaten against decks with belcher and loatheb.
The reason Miracle relies heavily on what to play is that it is a true combo deck-something that hearthstone lacks a lot of. Simple choices such as deciding when to dagger, when to swing with dagger, backstab or dagger, deadly poison and swing then fury next turn or fury and lose a dagger charge etc etc. all are decisions that take a higher understanding of the meta, what cards the opponent might have in hand based on what he has played and what you need later for combo and what you have played and or drawn.
The majority, not all, but at least greater than 50% of viable decks in HS have a low amount of value options per turn on how to respond. They usually respond to different threats with the same play. Not with Miracle. The variability of Miracle as well as the need to obtain utmost value out of each turn, as you usually have an empty board and therefor are punished to a greater degree to lack of value than other decks, tends to mean Miracle requires higher brain function.
In fact it's usually consensus among pro HS players that Miracle is a harder deck to play. It's not a deck you can watch a stream for a couple hours and get. It takes at least a full season of playing it at legend rank to really grasp it.
Definitely dead in ranked, maybe still seen in tournaments. It already was fairly weak against the omnipresent Sludge Belcher and Loatheb, I dont think you can get a good winrate (60%+) with it after this nerf :( Really liked that deck like it is right now, as its pretty different from the standard playstyle.
"On Forsen's stream last night he made a list last night that dropped the Leeroy combo in favor of Deckhand, Faceless and 2x Cold Bloods for 20 points of burst + your weapon damage on 8 mana if you had a prior weapon equipped or 21 points of burst on 10 mana with the hero power.
From when I tuned in last night he only dropped 1 games during his climb to rank 10 legend EU then a second one to take him back down to rank 17 before logging off for the evening."
On Forsen's stream last night he made a list last night that dropped the Leeroy combo in favor of Deckhand, Faceless and 2x Cold Bloods for 20 points of burst + your weapon damage on 8 mana if you had a prior weapon equipped or 21 points of burst on 10 mana with the hero power.
From when I tuned in last night he only dropped 1 games during his climb to rank 10 legend EU then a second one to take him back down to rank 17 before logging off for the evening.
Arcane Golem + Cold Blood + Cold Blood + Faceless = 24. Deckhand warrants 4 less damage for 2 less mana, which is a reasonable alternative. Also, Faceless could be used to copy either you gigantic shade or enemy legendary, if the situation requires it.
It is still viable but now it open up some space so people can react and more possible creative new decks/combo not just "Leeroy+coldblood+prep+prep" OHKO all over again and again. We all knew this day would come and Leeroy kindda deserves the nerf.
On a side note, people are trying out Malyrogue just as Miauly said.
Malyrogue is not an option. It was always a slow deck, died to many decks including miracle. Why? Because you can kill your opponent with it at 10 mana which is too much, most games don't last that long. Another reason why it wasn't viable is that you will be forced to burn your damage spells earlier than turn 10 in order to survive and get to late game. Cold blood is by no means a replacement for shadowstep. A lot of people including me was playing without cold blood recently as it can be a dead card most of the times and you don't want a hand with cold blood after mulligan (+because of loatheb, running 2x conceal became also more popular, making a higher possibility for dead hands, cold blood would make it a lot worse to unplayability and inconsistency). And shadowstep has many uses: you can bounce back SI:7 agents, heal yourself with farseer, use coldlight oracle or shadowstep the azure drake/loatheb. Cold blood is a much worse and more situational card. To sum up, I agree with yoQ and starfox23, after the nerf, the combo rogue will not work any more. Tempo/aggro rogue may be viable though, but all these changes + Naxx made a class that once was the king of all now a mediocre class.
I agree Malygos isn't the best option because of the T10+ clock, I've been experimenting with Arcane Golem and think it could be good enough if the deck adds damage sources like Assassin's Blade, Cold Blood or Sinister Strike because 12 damage for 5 mana is still a decent amount and compared to the pre-nerf Leeroy it's a trade off of 6 damage for 3 mana on the kill turn.
That brings us to the Earthenring Farseer slot, and I think the deck has to become more aggressive with dealing damage instead of gaining life, so cards like Shade of Naxxramas and Violete Teacher need to be considered where Shade of Naxxramas is a guaranteed 3 damage on the following turn and an escalating threat to force removal or trades and Violete Teacher is similar in nature as well with both having their respective synergy with Cold Blood and Sinister Strike..
Considering Handlock is comming back into the metagame I think Coldlight Oracle is another option as well in order to make the deck more aggressive, but as always it's rather double edged.
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I am not so sure Miracle isn't still viable. If you sub out one of the Shadowsteps for Cold Blood you can still do 16 damage with Leroy + 2 cards for 9 mana. Not ideal, but I actually think it will still be viable, especially if fewer people playing it results in fewer Sludges.
It certainly takes the wind out of it's sails. Keep in mind that for most decks Leeroy costs one more. For Miracle Rogue it essentially costs 3 more now. Miracle is a hard deck to run and this just made it harder. You'll still see it with variants such as Maly-Miracle or a more creature based rogue designed to do damage a little more evenly but it's the only non-hunter deck most weakened by the nerf.
In all honesty it doesn't really kill Miracle as alot of matches can be won with just the large amount of spell spam and even then you can still do a fair bit of the Leeroy + Shadowstep combo, It's more like it just hurt it's finisher. However I must admit I do not play alot of miracle so I do apologize if I just completely missed the point.
Remind me to put something here later.
@firekindle I agree with you. I've played a lot of Miracle and it's pretty rare that I need Leeroy and two Shadowsteps to kill my opponents. That combo usually just wins you the games that you have no business winning. Most games are won with minion + weapon damage and a few cheap spells to finish them off.
And which part of Miracle requires higher brain functions then? Forgive me if I am being out of line here but I don't really see much intelligence in how to operate Miracle, I would go as far to say that the brainpower in playing Hearthstone is more on when to play your cards for any deck and what to anticipate from your opponent.
Remind me to put something here later.
It is not that Miracle Rogue cannot perform miracles anymore, it's just that those combos are more expensive. Before you could sap and leeroy single ss for 8. Now its single ss leroy for 8 no sap. Two ss leeroy with sap as well as two leeroy ss no longer works.... these are just some of the otk/swing turns. Mrogue can still work with a good player, but it will no longer have a high enough statistical matchup to be worth ranked play. It was already struggling to keep 50% win post naxx.... now it has no way to efficiently threaten against decks with belcher and loatheb.
The reason Miracle relies heavily on what to play is that it is a true combo deck-something that hearthstone lacks a lot of. Simple choices such as deciding when to dagger, when to swing with dagger, backstab or dagger, deadly poison and swing then fury next turn or fury and lose a dagger charge etc etc. all are decisions that take a higher understanding of the meta, what cards the opponent might have in hand based on what he has played and what you need later for combo and what you have played and or drawn.
The majority, not all, but at least greater than 50% of viable decks in HS have a low amount of value options per turn on how to respond. They usually respond to different threats with the same play. Not with Miracle. The variability of Miracle as well as the need to obtain utmost value out of each turn, as you usually have an empty board and therefor are punished to a greater degree to lack of value than other decks, tends to mean Miracle requires higher brain function.
In fact it's usually consensus among pro HS players that Miracle is a harder deck to play. It's not a deck you can watch a stream for a couple hours and get. It takes at least a full season of playing it at legend rank to really grasp it.
Definitely dead in ranked, maybe still seen in tournaments. It already was fairly weak against the omnipresent Sludge Belcher and Loatheb, I dont think you can get a good winrate (60%+) with it after this nerf :(
Really liked that deck like it is right now, as its pretty different from the standard playstyle.
Probably will see a return of Assassin's Blade to the standard list.
"On Forsen's stream last night he made a list last night that dropped the Leeroy combo in favor of Deckhand, Faceless and 2x Cold Bloods for 20 points of burst + your weapon damage on 8 mana if you had a prior weapon equipped or 21 points of burst on 10 mana with the hero power.
List can be found here: http://gyazo.com/002b739da3c0fdfc1a279da1d8492938
From when I tuned in last night he only dropped 1 games during his climb to rank 10 legend EU then a second one to take him back down to rank 17 before logging off for the evening."
Clever
Arcane Golem + Cold Blood + Cold Blood + Faceless = 24. Deckhand warrants 4 less damage for 2 less mana, which is a reasonable alternative. Also, Faceless could be used to copy either you gigantic shade or enemy legendary, if the situation requires it.
And there is always Malyrogue option.
It is still viable but now it open up some space so people can react and more possible creative new decks/combo not just "Leeroy+coldblood+prep+prep" OHKO all over again and again. We all knew this day would come and Leeroy kindda deserves the nerf.
On a side note, people are trying out Malyrogue just as Miauly said.
miracle was dying before the nerf.
let me change your mind...
Malyrogue is not an option. It was always a slow deck, died to many decks including miracle. Why? Because you can kill your opponent with it at 10 mana which is too much, most games don't last that long. Another reason why it wasn't viable is that you will be forced to burn your damage spells earlier than turn 10 in order to survive and get to late game.
Cold blood is by no means a replacement for shadowstep. A lot of people including me was playing without cold blood recently as it can be a dead card most of the times and you don't want a hand with cold blood after mulligan (+because of loatheb, running 2x conceal became also more popular, making a higher possibility for dead hands, cold blood would make it a lot worse to unplayability and inconsistency). And shadowstep has many uses: you can bounce back SI:7 agents, heal yourself with farseer, use coldlight oracle or shadowstep the azure drake/loatheb. Cold blood is a much worse and more situational card.
To sum up, I agree with yoQ and starfox23, after the nerf, the combo rogue will not work any more. Tempo/aggro rogue may be viable though, but all these changes + Naxx made a class that once was the king of all now a mediocre class.
I bring life and BOOOOAHH
I agree Malygos isn't the best option because of the T10+ clock, I've been experimenting with Arcane Golem and think it could be good enough if the deck adds damage sources like Assassin's Blade, Cold Blood or Sinister Strike because 12 damage for 5 mana is still a decent amount and compared to the pre-nerf Leeroy it's a trade off of 6 damage for 3 mana on the kill turn.
That brings us to the Earthenring Farseer slot, and I think the deck has to become more aggressive with dealing damage instead of gaining life, so cards like Shade of Naxxramas and Violete Teacher need to be considered where Shade of Naxxramas is a guaranteed 3 damage on the following turn and an escalating threat to force removal or trades and Violete Teacher is similar in nature as well with both having their respective synergy with Cold Blood and Sinister Strike..
Considering Handlock is comming back into the metagame I think Coldlight Oracle is another option as well in order to make the deck more aggressive, but as always it's rather double edged.