It's kind of strange to see that streamers and tourney are trying Paladin with really terrible results. Yes, Strifecro went on a streak with his strange Muster deck, and yes, Midrange Paladin can run away with the game ... but I find myself missing control.
Is it dead?
I was watching Kibler this morning, and hearing his thoughts were kind of depressing. He says that Muster is pretty garbage today, because of how easy it can be to play around Quartermaster. I'd argue that if there is no sort of removal or you are that far head, almost any fatty minion or legendary would close the game at that point. He is legend rank, but is somewhat new to the scene, so hearing an educated opinion about the class from a mostly outside perspective was kind of sad.
Reynad. Reynad started talking about how good Paladin on ladder is. He makes a deck, loses twice, and goes into the list to start to make some decisions about what works and what doesn't. Finally he just says, "nevermind, I want to play Warlock", and closes the deck editor on Paladin.
Powder. Powder made rank #1 EU with a midrange Muster deck (which has since been claimed by other decks and players), and then attempted to climb the NA ladder with the same deck (minus Bolvar and Tinkmaster, with Sludge Belchers replacing them). What followed is a terrible losing streak that made him switch to Warrior. He had some nasty things to say about the NA ladder.
What I think, though, is that maybe the problem is x2 Muster and x2 Quartermasters. Once Recruits have been cleared, I've seen Quartermasters sit in the hand until you can at least buff 2 Recruits to get good value, but this seems to only happen when they have the board *anyway*. My observation is that just the threat of Muster & Quarter makes opponents clear your tokens, so maybe it can just be a bluff in a control deck? It's kind of disheartening to me that Paladin finally have a form of "burst", but "burst" is quite the right word because it takes time to set up. The closest comparison I have is Force of Nature + Savage Roar, for 1 mana more, you get 14 damage (or more) THIS turn. What if Force of Nature tokens didn't have charge, and died at the end of your next turn? Waaaay less threatening, and they are 2/2!
I've been thinking a lot about this, and I really hope it isn't the case, but I feel like a lot of the hype and efficiency of Muster has died off once everyone realized "hey, kill the tokens". I'm happy that there is one deck that is Paladin played currently in the tourney scene, but I'm having a hard time reconciling what the hell happened to Control Paladin.
I agree with the changes Dwl_ is talking about. I've been running Knife Juggler since GvG day one and i can tell how great it is in the deck compared to Pyromancer. Yes it's more random but you don't get screwed because you have to play Pyro and have no spell to trigger it. With Knife Juggler, worst case scenario is that you put a Dude into play and see how it goes.
Bomb Lobber is also amazing, specially with all those spare parts you see. Thanks to him you can bypass some stealthed annoying minion because of Finnicky Cloakfield.
Only change you talked that i'm not a fan is switching Acolyte of Pain to Cult Master. I've never liked that card tbh with you, i think that 4 mana is way too expensive for something that won't get you many cards and that will be killed very easily. You need to have some board presence to make Cult Master actually worth it while Acolyte of Pain is value just by himself at the beginning of the game. He also works just fine mid or late game.
I believe that Paladin is exactly at the same point as priest control. I mean that both classes have so many cards that can fit in, so many combos you can take advantage from that it's very hard to find the balance between combo pieces and simple value cards that work just fine by themselves... It's also a matter of not trying to fit every kind of combos in it. Yes Quartermaster is a great card but i don't see why we should HAVE to put 2 copies in the deck. As you mentionned, it can clog your hand pretty badly and if your dudes get smashed before you can put Quartermaster in the deck it looses so much value that you will feel sorry to run 2 copies instead of something else (like Bomb Lobber).
We need time to see how the meta turns out, although i expect it won't slow down even a bit. It will still be 80% aggro and 20% control. You also need to be ready to face the fact that given your Rank and your serveur it might be a good idea not to play Paladin until it's profitable again to play it. Unfortunately, i really believe that Paladin isn't a class that you can play all along the month unless you are prepared to play 500 games during the month so in the end your win ratio can still make you climb.
Sorry that i don't have the perfect magic answer to our problem here but that's my own actual experience with Paladin so far...
I think there needs to be some discussion about Baron Geddon. While there is anti-synergy with the hero power, it's another clear with Equality, and another potential BGH target. If you play Warrior, you know that you'd want your opponent to BGH your Baron as opposed to other stuff like 100% of the time.
I agree with some of the stuff Dwl_ is talking about, too. Juggler over Pyro makes sense, even if there's some RNG evolved with Equality clears, at least you don't lose your own board. I also like Bomb Lobber as a soft replacement for Kodo, even if Aldor + Kodo was great for one big threat on the board (I can't count the time I blew up a Ragnaros pre-GvG). I'm trying to make Cult Masters work, but the most I can get is that it usually replaces itself... in a good situation you can get a lot of draw, though.
I noticed some Warriors have reduced their Shield Block to x1, and I feel like I may have to cut Lay on Hands. In control vs. control, I find I can go into fatigue fairly quickly between a choice Harrison and Lay on Hands, and I don't like the speed at which I draw the deck sometimes.
I really hate Zombie Chows. They can get value, but they make some of the hard match-ups so much worse. It's great to draw him for a turn 1 play against aggro, but he feels clunky and bad when he is just potentially feeding Acolytes or Northshires or something. I kind of think Seal of Light is a potential replacement here.
I'm trying your deck in your signature, Dwl_. I like the look of it.
Nonsense. Rank 10-3 has a lot paladins. Id say 2/10 matches i played today are mirror matches or close to that. i was watching D9 and pala is ppbly is his worst matchup (rank 4-2)
Popular streamer dont play paladin =/ control pala is dead. Pbbly now is more "midrangy", but not dead.
I agree however that CWarrior matchup is harder now.
Call me old guy but i cant live without WP+EQ even with muster.
Most people experienced with Paladin when GvG was released but from my experience, i barely play against one Paladin out of 10 games... A bit more when i play casual (that means 2 for 10 games) but right now at Rank 4 on EU i have not faced one for ages. They are all back to the old habit, Hunter / Zoo / Handlock / CW / Priest.
Besides my experience or yours is irrelevant unless we could pull some huge number datas and see how is the ratio Paladin vs other classes but i would bet that Paladin is the less played class, right behind Rogue who doesn't get much love lately.
I want to be clear that I don't think it's dead because popular streamers don't play it, I think popular streamers don't play it because it may be dead. Midrange and control are also pretty different. I'd also like this thread to be a forum for discussion of where control paladin to go, not a dick waving contest of your personal records.
Also, by "D9" do you mean Day9? Last time I checked he's playing an Echo gimmick deck. I don't really think that's indicative of the meta or a reason to run Paladin to counter it.
I think there needs to be some discussion about Baron Geddon. While there is anti-synergy with the hero power, it's another clear with Equality, and another potential BGH target. If you play Warrior, you know that you'd want your opponent to BGH your Baron as opposed to other stuff like 100% of the time.
I agree with some of the stuff Dwl_ is talking about, too. Juggler over Pyro makes sense, even if there's some RNG evolved with Equality clears, at least you don't lose your own board. I also like Bomb Lobber as a soft replacement for Kodo, even if Aldor + Kodo was great for one big threat on the board (I can't count the time I blew up a Ragnaros pre-GvG). I'm trying to make Cult Masters work, but the most I can get is that it usually replaces itself... in a good situation you can get a lot of draw, though.
I noticed some Warriors have reduced their Shield Block to x1, and I feel like I may have to cut Lay on Hands. In control vs. control, I find I can go into fatigue fairly quickly between a choice Harrison and Lay on Hands, and I don't like the speed at which I draw the deck sometimes.
I really hate Zombie Chows. They can get value, but they make some of the hard match-ups so much worse. It's great to draw him for a turn 1 play against aggro, but he feels clunky and bad when he is just potentially feeding Acolytes or Northshires or something. I kind of think Seal of Light is a potential replacement here.
I'm trying your deck in your signature, Dwl_. I like the look of it.
The thing with Baron Geddon in CW is that you have very little board presence so it doesn't affect you much. And even when you have some minions on the board, Geddon will help you trigger Acolyte draw and Armorsmith.
This won't be the same in Paladin. At best you will get cards from Acolyte but that's all the benefit you will get.
Speaking of board clear, right now i've been able to get enough since i added Bomb Lobber and Dr Boom to the mix. It's not as "one shot board clear" like Equality + WP but that's quite effective anyway.
About Lay on Hands i've been wondering about the same. Since we now have Healbot we can still heal effectively so that part is covered. But the card draw is still pretty effective and often helps a lot when it comes to close control vs control games. It's still and 8 mana card :/
If they ever give us another way to draw cards for cheaper i think we will be glad to drop it for good but right now i still play more games where i pray to draw Lay on Hands than when i don't want to see it.
I'm also using Bomb Lobbers & Dr. Boom. Dr. Boom is just good, you could probably fit him into any deck. My problem with Lay on Hands is the same it's always been, really. It's just a slow, slow card. I think the best case scenario is that you'd draw an Equality (assuming you have a board) or an Owl on Turn 10. The draw is obviously helpful, but I'm kind of doubting it lately.
I agree what you are saying about hoping you draw it.
Geddon... I don't know. I'm not convinced yet. While it's true that Geddon will help CW trigger Armorsmith and stuff, I think Geddon being another board clear with Equality is pretty cool. He's basically a huge Pyromancer that is actually a threat. I think I need to test him a bit more before I've made up my mind on the big guy.
Paladin is fine right now. Just like you said, I wouldn't care less if popular streamers say it's dead or not. Especially after watching some plays from Kibler against a warrior, I'd pretty much say that Pala isn't his thing. The Paladin decks introduced in GvG have synergy, strong board presence and a late game plan. They also have good and bad matchups, just like any other deck.
Midrange and control are not dead at all, but they'll never be Zoo,Mechmage or FaceHunter popular because they rarely end up winning matchups just because they drew the nuts. Expect popular streamers to always downgrade a deck that requires commitment and can end up in a losing streak on the process of learning the ropes. After all they want to attract people to their stream and people want to see them winning.
I play control Paladin exclusively on ladder, and am finally having success with it since the release of GvG.
2x Shade of Naxx, 2x Muster, 2x Quartermaster, 2x Arcane Nullifier X-21 are the most recent cards I included. Was trying out things like Ogre Brute+Coghammer to stop the aggro, but Nullifier turned out to be more efficient, forcing aggro to trade in minions to remove it. Coghammer doesnt fit in at the moment, Truesilver Champion is better IMO, and i dont wanna "Sunwalker" a dude, of which I have quite a few on board most of the times.
I also run 2x Aldor (of course), 1x Humility, 2x Kodo and presently 2x BGH, just because of the sheer amounts of CW and Handlocks im running into at the moment. I cut out Wild Pyromancer completely, just because my deck is not relying so hard on Equality-Boardclear any longer, I'm still playing it control-like, with lots of tempo plays however,
As for late game cards, Dr. Boom is a staple from now on for me, he has soo much value for 7 Mana. I played Bolvar Fordragon with a bit of success so far, but I still don't feel confident of having him in there... And then of course Tirion and Ysera
Generally speaking I don't think there can be "the 1"Paladin control deck, at least not for the time. You just have to react too much to what other players in your ladder region are playing, and adjust accordingly... i really like the idea of Knife Juggler, haven't thought of that so far, I will definately test that one out
Some more theorycrafting, I think Repentance might be okay. I'd only play it after Turn 7, really, and I don't think anyone would expect it. It's hilarious to get this on a Jaraxxus and set the player's health to 1.
Stuck at around rank 5 with it. I can't compete with all the sjit handlocks and warriors have. It used to be fine, but warriors play more whirwinds now to deal with the tokens. Mech mage and zoo are too fast to come back from. After a few losses I switch back to my hunter deck to make up for the lost ranks. I know it can work well in tournements, but I don't think it is a good ladder deck.
Agreed.
Other classes and decks have instant combos that either win the game or affect the board in meaningful ways. The biggest thing paladins have is Equality+Pyro, but everyone knows about it, so no one ever overextends, especially other control classes. If you have a giant and a 3/3 on the board and you're winning, you have no reason to play more cards.
When pushed back against the wall, warrios Shield Block and/or Shieldmaiden into shield slam. It's just ridiculous that they can heal and 1 shot large minions with a 1 mana spell. Shield slam should at least be 2 mana. Handlocks have Watcher/Giant Shadowflame combos that devastate your board, and when they use a molten giant for it it's just too much tempo gain to contend with.
Paladin is as passive as Priest, but they don't have all the control cards. They are stuck in the middle ground and it is beginning to show.
Priest at least has valuable minions. Blademaster, Auchenai, Dark Cultist, and Cabal can stick around a long time. When I look at a Priest's deck and only see like 10 minions in it, I always wonder how they win any games.
Someone mentioned ( and I agree ) that Paladin is kind of stuck between "I want these combo cards" and "these are good minions", and has to really make concessions to play. I used to joke that Paladin's class mechanic was 2-for-1ing themselves on card advantage. I think the class needs to really get it's draw in order if the idea is to play like 2 to 3 cards a turn to try and keep up.
I just don't know how to do that. It's a shame we don't have a big bursty win condition (Tinker Rogue, Combo Druid, Control Warrior) or the ability to grind it out (Priest, Control Warrior). I really want there to be more than 1 Paladin deck that can compete on high level. I really don't want to do something like Leeroy + Faceless for burst.
I don't think that Healbot and LoH are sharing any similar functionality. LoH is a late game hand refill, which effectively allows you to overlook many popular mid-range deck drawing tools, while the Healbot is a mid game survival tool. Personally, I'd never run midrange or control without LoH.
What do you guys think of 1 sea giant as a tech/synergy card maybe ... say, instead of a quartermaster.
It could work in a much faster deck than the current versions of Paladin Control. Probably worth playing one in Shockadin deck lists. They even started to run one in Zoo these days so why not?
However in Control Paladin you never have 4 or more minions on the board, even with Muster for Battle. Because you can't afford to over extent and loose your whole board to a simple AOE. Since Paladin doesn't have a clean way to refill his hand in that kind of deck, making a come back is very hard.
I don't think that Healbot and LoH are sharing any similar functionality. LoH is a late game hand refill, which effectively allows you to overlook many popular mid-range deck drawing tools, while the Healbot is a mid game survival tool. Personally, I'd never run midrange or control without LoH.
Exactly. The thing is that you play Lay on Hands because it's the best card draw available for Paladin right now. It heals you at the same time so it's a double effect but make it a 8 mana card. Most of the times you play LoH because you need to refill your hand and as a bonus you get healed so you don't feel too miserable having to waste your entire turn to draw 3 cards (compared to Warlock Hero power or simply Arcane Intellect you feel ripped off...)
If there was a cheaper way to draw cards and stronger on board than Cult Master i would drop LoH gladly but right now that's all Blizzard gave Paladin.
But i'm also running one Antique Healbot, just to be sure to get out of the burst range Hunter can have so i can drag them into the long game and even then it's not a guaranteed win since their hero power mostly laugh about long games, they will drop your life every single turn as you all know.
Overall, i think that the best solution is to go for value / sticky minions with the addition of our usual AOE/ Removals and that's it. Piloted Shredder and Sky Golem are very good ways to clear medium / big threats without relying on combo cards like Humility / Kodo. Bomb lobber always get you a kill and give you some board presence in the exact same way. Dr Boom also increases your ability to clear a couple of minions still crowding the board. Most of the time you can deal with a single target, the problem really starts when you face multiple threats...
I used to have a lot of trouble with Hunter, but 1x Seal of Light and 1x Kezan Mystic tech were enough to significantly help with the matchup. Unfortunately, the other matchup that is already really poor for me (Priest) is a little worse due to this.
Most other matchups I'm pretty comfortable with. I only run 1x Quartermaster, and 1x Divine Favor. Running 2x of each of these more often than not ends up with me having dead cards. I dunno, I find not having cards in your hand with Pally is just a result of going too hard too fast.
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It's kind of strange to see that streamers and tourney are trying Paladin with really terrible results. Yes, Strifecro went on a streak with his strange Muster deck, and yes, Midrange Paladin can run away with the game ... but I find myself missing control.
Is it dead?
I was watching Kibler this morning, and hearing his thoughts were kind of depressing. He says that Muster is pretty garbage today, because of how easy it can be to play around Quartermaster. I'd argue that if there is no sort of removal or you are that far head, almost any fatty minion or legendary would close the game at that point. He is legend rank, but is somewhat new to the scene, so hearing an educated opinion about the class from a mostly outside perspective was kind of sad.
Reynad. Reynad started talking about how good Paladin on ladder is. He makes a deck, loses twice, and goes into the list to start to make some decisions about what works and what doesn't. Finally he just says, "nevermind, I want to play Warlock", and closes the deck editor on Paladin.
Powder. Powder made rank #1 EU with a midrange Muster deck (which has since been claimed by other decks and players), and then attempted to climb the NA ladder with the same deck (minus Bolvar and Tinkmaster, with Sludge Belchers replacing them). What followed is a terrible losing streak that made him switch to Warrior. He had some nasty things to say about the NA ladder.
What I think, though, is that maybe the problem is x2 Muster and x2 Quartermasters. Once Recruits have been cleared, I've seen Quartermasters sit in the hand until you can at least buff 2 Recruits to get good value, but this seems to only happen when they have the board *anyway*. My observation is that just the threat of Muster & Quarter makes opponents clear your tokens, so maybe it can just be a bluff in a control deck? It's kind of disheartening to me that Paladin finally have a form of "burst", but "burst" is quite the right word because it takes time to set up. The closest comparison I have is Force of Nature + Savage Roar, for 1 mana more, you get 14 damage (or more) THIS turn. What if Force of Nature tokens didn't have charge, and died at the end of your next turn? Waaaay less threatening, and they are 2/2!
I've been thinking a lot about this, and I really hope it isn't the case, but I feel like a lot of the hype and efficiency of Muster has died off once everyone realized "hey, kill the tokens". I'm happy that there is one deck that is Paladin played currently in the tourney scene, but I'm having a hard time reconciling what the hell happened to Control Paladin.
Thanks for reading.
I'm not sure I'd call Trump's Quartered deck a control deck, unless you are talking about another one?
I appreciate the discussion, I'd like to hear more on this.
I agree with the changes Dwl_ is talking about. I've been running Knife Juggler since GvG day one and i can tell how great it is in the deck compared to Pyromancer. Yes it's more random but you don't get screwed because you have to play Pyro and have no spell to trigger it. With Knife Juggler, worst case scenario is that you put a Dude into play and see how it goes.
Bomb Lobber is also amazing, specially with all those spare parts you see. Thanks to him you can bypass some stealthed annoying minion because of Finnicky Cloakfield.
Only change you talked that i'm not a fan is switching Acolyte of Pain to Cult Master. I've never liked that card tbh with you, i think that 4 mana is way too expensive for something that won't get you many cards and that will be killed very easily. You need to have some board presence to make Cult Master actually worth it while Acolyte of Pain is value just by himself at the beginning of the game. He also works just fine mid or late game.
I believe that Paladin is exactly at the same point as priest control. I mean that both classes have so many cards that can fit in, so many combos you can take advantage from that it's very hard to find the balance between combo pieces and simple value cards that work just fine by themselves... It's also a matter of not trying to fit every kind of combos in it. Yes Quartermaster is a great card but i don't see why we should HAVE to put 2 copies in the deck. As you mentionned, it can clog your hand pretty badly and if your dudes get smashed before you can put Quartermaster in the deck it looses so much value that you will feel sorry to run 2 copies instead of something else (like Bomb Lobber).
We need time to see how the meta turns out, although i expect it won't slow down even a bit. It will still be 80% aggro and 20% control. You also need to be ready to face the fact that given your Rank and your serveur it might be a good idea not to play Paladin until it's profitable again to play it. Unfortunately, i really believe that Paladin isn't a class that you can play all along the month unless you are prepared to play 500 games during the month so in the end your win ratio can still make you climb.
Sorry that i don't have the perfect magic answer to our problem here but that's my own actual experience with Paladin so far...
I think there needs to be some discussion about Baron Geddon. While there is anti-synergy with the hero power, it's another clear with Equality, and another potential BGH target. If you play Warrior, you know that you'd want your opponent to BGH your Baron as opposed to other stuff like 100% of the time.
I agree with some of the stuff Dwl_ is talking about, too. Juggler over Pyro makes sense, even if there's some RNG evolved with Equality clears, at least you don't lose your own board. I also like Bomb Lobber as a soft replacement for Kodo, even if Aldor + Kodo was great for one big threat on the board (I can't count the time I blew up a Ragnaros pre-GvG). I'm trying to make Cult Masters work, but the most I can get is that it usually replaces itself... in a good situation you can get a lot of draw, though.
I noticed some Warriors have reduced their Shield Block to x1, and I feel like I may have to cut Lay on Hands. In control vs. control, I find I can go into fatigue fairly quickly between a choice Harrison and Lay on Hands, and I don't like the speed at which I draw the deck sometimes.
I really hate Zombie Chows. They can get value, but they make some of the hard match-ups so much worse. It's great to draw him for a turn 1 play against aggro, but he feels clunky and bad when he is just potentially feeding Acolytes or Northshires or something. I kind of think Seal of Light is a potential replacement here.
I'm trying your deck in your signature, Dwl_. I like the look of it.
Most people experienced with Paladin when GvG was released but from my experience, i barely play against one Paladin out of 10 games... A bit more when i play casual (that means 2 for 10 games) but right now at Rank 4 on EU i have not faced one for ages. They are all back to the old habit, Hunter / Zoo / Handlock / CW / Priest.
Besides my experience or yours is irrelevant unless we could pull some huge number datas and see how is the ratio Paladin vs other classes but i would bet that Paladin is the less played class, right behind Rogue who doesn't get much love lately.
I want to be clear that I don't think it's dead because popular streamers don't play it, I think popular streamers don't play it because it may be dead. Midrange and control are also pretty different. I'd also like this thread to be a forum for discussion of where control paladin to go, not a dick waving contest of your personal records.
Also, by "D9" do you mean Day9? Last time I checked he's playing an Echo gimmick deck. I don't really think that's indicative of the meta or a reason to run Paladin to counter it.
The thing with Baron Geddon in CW is that you have very little board presence so it doesn't affect you much. And even when you have some minions on the board, Geddon will help you trigger Acolyte draw and Armorsmith.
This won't be the same in Paladin. At best you will get cards from Acolyte but that's all the benefit you will get.
Speaking of board clear, right now i've been able to get enough since i added Bomb Lobber and Dr Boom to the mix. It's not as "one shot board clear" like Equality + WP but that's quite effective anyway.
About Lay on Hands i've been wondering about the same. Since we now have Healbot we can still heal effectively so that part is covered. But the card draw is still pretty effective and often helps a lot when it comes to close control vs control games. It's still and 8 mana card :/
If they ever give us another way to draw cards for cheaper i think we will be glad to drop it for good but right now i still play more games where i pray to draw Lay on Hands than when i don't want to see it.
I played control paladin for a bit and had really good games with it. I didn't add things like knife juggler though.
I'm also using Bomb Lobbers & Dr. Boom. Dr. Boom is just good, you could probably fit him into any deck. My problem with Lay on Hands is the same it's always been, really. It's just a slow, slow card. I think the best case scenario is that you'd draw an Equality (assuming you have a board) or an Owl on Turn 10. The draw is obviously helpful, but I'm kind of doubting it lately.
I agree what you are saying about hoping you draw it.
Geddon... I don't know. I'm not convinced yet. While it's true that Geddon will help CW trigger Armorsmith and stuff, I think Geddon being another board clear with Equality is pretty cool. He's basically a huge Pyromancer that is actually a threat. I think I need to test him a bit more before I've made up my mind on the big guy.
Paladin is fine right now. Just like you said, I wouldn't care less if popular streamers say it's dead or not. Especially after watching some plays from Kibler against a warrior, I'd pretty much say that Pala isn't his thing. The Paladin decks introduced in GvG have synergy, strong board presence and a late game plan. They also have good and bad matchups, just like any other deck.
Midrange and control are not dead at all, but they'll never be Zoo,Mechmage or FaceHunter popular because they rarely end up winning matchups just because they drew the nuts. Expect popular streamers to always downgrade a deck that requires commitment and can end up in a losing streak on the process of learning the ropes. After all they want to attract people to their stream and people want to see them winning.
I play control Paladin exclusively on ladder, and am finally having success with it since the release of GvG.
2x Shade of Naxx, 2x Muster, 2x Quartermaster, 2x Arcane Nullifier X-21 are the most recent cards I included. Was trying out things like Ogre Brute+Coghammer to stop the aggro, but Nullifier turned out to be more efficient, forcing aggro to trade in minions to remove it. Coghammer doesnt fit in at the moment, Truesilver Champion is better IMO, and i dont wanna "Sunwalker" a dude, of which I have quite a few on board most of the times.
I also run 2x Aldor (of course), 1x Humility, 2x Kodo and presently 2x BGH, just because of the sheer amounts of CW and Handlocks im running into at the moment. I cut out Wild Pyromancer completely, just because my deck is not relying so hard on Equality-Boardclear any longer, I'm still playing it control-like, with lots of tempo plays however,
As for late game cards, Dr. Boom is a staple from now on for me, he has soo much value for 7 Mana. I played Bolvar Fordragon with a bit of success so far, but I still don't feel confident of having him in there... And then of course Tirion and Ysera
Generally speaking I don't think there can be "the 1"Paladin control deck, at least not for the time. You just have to react too much to what other players in your ladder region are playing, and adjust accordingly... i really like the idea of Knife Juggler, haven't thought of that so far, I will definately test that one out
Hier gewinnt nur einer, St. Pauli und sonst keiner.
Some more theorycrafting, I think Repentance might be okay. I'd only play it after Turn 7, really, and I don't think anyone would expect it. It's hilarious to get this on a Jaraxxus and set the player's health to 1.
It's very random. It's one of those cards that is amazing when it works, but it only works in 1 out of 50 games.
Agreed.
Other classes and decks have instant combos that either win the game or affect the board in meaningful ways. The biggest thing paladins have is Equality+Pyro, but everyone knows about it, so no one ever overextends, especially other control classes. If you have a giant and a 3/3 on the board and you're winning, you have no reason to play more cards.
When pushed back against the wall, warrios Shield Block and/or Shieldmaiden into shield slam. It's just ridiculous that they can heal and 1 shot large minions with a 1 mana spell. Shield slam should at least be 2 mana. Handlocks have Watcher/Giant Shadowflame combos that devastate your board, and when they use a molten giant for it it's just too much tempo gain to contend with.
Paladin is as passive as Priest, but they don't have all the control cards. They are stuck in the middle ground and it is beginning to show.
Priest at least has valuable minions. Blademaster, Auchenai, Dark Cultist, and Cabal can stick around a long time. When I look at a Priest's deck and only see like 10 minions in it, I always wonder how they win any games.
Someone mentioned ( and I agree ) that Paladin is kind of stuck between "I want these combo cards" and "these are good minions", and has to really make concessions to play. I used to joke that Paladin's class mechanic was 2-for-1ing themselves on card advantage. I think the class needs to really get it's draw in order if the idea is to play like 2 to 3 cards a turn to try and keep up.
I just don't know how to do that. It's a shame we don't have a big bursty win condition (Tinker Rogue, Combo Druid, Control Warrior) or the ability to grind it out (Priest, Control Warrior). I really want there to be more than 1 Paladin deck that can compete on high level. I really don't want to do something like Leeroy + Faceless for burst.
What do you guys think of 1 sea giant as a tech/synergy card maybe ... say, instead of a quartermaster.
I don't think that Healbot and LoH are sharing any similar functionality. LoH is a late game hand refill, which effectively allows you to overlook many popular mid-range deck drawing tools, while the Healbot is a mid game survival tool. Personally, I'd never run midrange or control without LoH.
It could work in a much faster deck than the current versions of Paladin Control. Probably worth playing one in Shockadin deck lists. They even started to run one in Zoo these days so why not?
However in Control Paladin you never have 4 or more minions on the board, even with Muster for Battle. Because you can't afford to over extent and loose your whole board to a simple AOE. Since Paladin doesn't have a clean way to refill his hand in that kind of deck, making a come back is very hard.
Exactly. The thing is that you play Lay on Hands because it's the best card draw available for Paladin right now. It heals you at the same time so it's a double effect but make it a 8 mana card. Most of the times you play LoH because you need to refill your hand and as a bonus you get healed so you don't feel too miserable having to waste your entire turn to draw 3 cards (compared to Warlock Hero power or simply Arcane Intellect you feel ripped off...)
If there was a cheaper way to draw cards and stronger on board than Cult Master i would drop LoH gladly but right now that's all Blizzard gave Paladin.
But i'm also running one Antique Healbot, just to be sure to get out of the burst range Hunter can have so i can drag them into the long game and even then it's not a guaranteed win since their hero power mostly laugh about long games, they will drop your life every single turn as you all know.
Overall, i think that the best solution is to go for value / sticky minions with the addition of our usual AOE/ Removals and that's it. Piloted Shredder and Sky Golem are very good ways to clear medium / big threats without relying on combo cards like Humility / Kodo. Bomb lobber always get you a kill and give you some board presence in the exact same way. Dr Boom also increases your ability to clear a couple of minions still crowding the board. Most of the time you can deal with a single target, the problem really starts when you face multiple threats...
I used to have a lot of trouble with Hunter, but 1x Seal of Light and 1x Kezan Mystic tech were enough to significantly help with the matchup. Unfortunately, the other matchup that is already really poor for me (Priest) is a little worse due to this.
Most other matchups I'm pretty comfortable with. I only run 1x Quartermaster, and 1x Divine Favor. Running 2x of each of these more often than not ends up with me having dead cards. I dunno, I find not having cards in your hand with Pally is just a result of going too hard too fast.